If the unions hadn’t got the wrong Milliband elected the right Milliband would still be PM today, and there wouldn’t have been a referendum.

+1.

also I wish the SNP had the guts to just say ‘why should we present an economic case for independence, where was the proven economic case for Brexit?’

They get held to an impossibly high standard, remember the white paper they issued for IndyRef1, which got debated in forensic detail? Where was the Brexit equivalent? A slogan on a ****ing bus?

This election was really England’s independence campaign.

Now they have it it’s time they got out of that other union and stopped subsidising all those whining Scots. 🙂

You don’t think Nicola Sturgeon just wants a little bit more power?

Of course she does. She’s a politician.

I’d be happy to give it to  her as, in my opinion, she’s already demonstrated the ability to wield it responsibly.

We’re now  facing a decade of financial uncertainty with the impending Bosri Brexit that’s never been costed and with no trade deals in place.

Given the absolute inevitability of this chaos  i’d rather  be on an Indy Scotland chaos bus that she was driving rather than a UK chaos bus that Boris is blindly steering while someone else whispers directions in his ear.

Groundhog day.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-antisemitism-brexit

Sums up some of the comments above and reflects on what was perceived (rightly or wrongly) complete dithering over Brexit.

I’ve been watching the BBC review of the election all morning, there has been some very interesting points of view (as you’d expect)

One thing is for certain is that Jeremy seems to have been a very large part of the Labour collapse.. and thats fine to say after the event. But the consensus does seem to steer towards HIM being the problem. Which makes me question why so many Labour members have voted and supported him throughout the last few years. If the underground feeling is such that your supporters don’t back you, then where is the sense of leadership? Typically the comments form the Labour party MP’s are “we will reflect and understand the deltas” and yes you certainly have some time to reflect now… I’d suggest you review the whole Party and it’s ideals whilst you are there because from the comments of voters and supporters it’s clear they didn’t support the leader.

It was nice to hear the editor of the Times simply and clearly define Lyingblohards position of a committed liar and deceiver. On public TV thats a fairly healthy statement to make, and these people publish political comments and report on MP’s daily.

We do have lyingblohards swagger to look forward to, there will be no stopping his arrogance and belligerence now. And I just don’t get why the UK have voted for such a vile person… which simply falls back to the position of they must like his arrogance or wish to emulate it in some way.

That’s a very sad position the UK finds itself IMO.

And me out of the thread.

Which makes me question why so many Labour members have voted and supported him throughout the last few years.

Because Labour Party Members and Labour Voters are not always the same thing.

It won’t be, but we will be voting for the politicians who make the bed, instead of getting the ones another country choses.

Take back control!

Take back control!

Exactly, over how taxes are raised and spent. Over which wars we choose to participate in. In how we choose to react to the climate crisis. Over how we treat the most vulnerable in society through our social care system. Over whether we want nuclear weapons.

These are all areas that are, to a greater or lesser extent, controlled by Westminster and which will always make it impossible for Scotland to decide it’s own destiny.

Now ask a Brexiteer the same question and tell them they aren’t allowed to mention bananas.

The same reason (albeit less severe these days) that white people don’t get racism and men don’t get feminism.

Well speak for obviously superior self molgrips. I think you mean some white people and some men. Dealing in absolute generalisations is what is wrong with the majority of this forum.

I’ve never really understood the fervent hate of the English that I sometimes see from Scottish or Irish quarters apart from the obvious historical background that should be overcome by now surely?

I’ve never really understood the fervent hate of the Germans that I sometimes see from English quarters apart from the obvious historical background that should be overcome by now surely?

But the consensus does seem to steer towards HIM being the problem. Which makes me question why so many Labour members have voted and supported him throughout the last few years.

But the consensus does seem to steer towards HIM being the problem. Which makes me question why so many Labour members have voted and supported him throughout the last few years.

Because, as an ironic mirror of brexit itself, the problem isn’t really Jeremy Corbyn. The problem is people’s perception of Jeremy Corbyn. For all the reasons that have been cited on STW previously, I’d suggest that most people who have been posting on this thread and the Other One are way more politically engaged than the vast majority of the electorate. We simply aren’t representative of the whole.

Someone was telling me yesterday afternoon, a lot of people where she worked hadn’t made their minds up yet how they were going to vote later that day. Just how disconnected can you be?

We might spend ages combing through articles looking for things like previous voting history but we’re atypical, for many voters what they know about JC comes from very carefully filtered and heavily biased “news” articles from places like the Daily Mail.

This is perhaps why Labour weren’t in much of a hurry to replace JC. Simply put, it wouldn’t have made any difference. Because if they’d elected, oh I don’t know, Hugh Grant as leader, you can bet your bottom dollar that the following day the Express would be rerunning the story of him receiving horatio in a lay-bay.

This entire shitstorm, from the referendum result to yesterday’s election, is nothing more than a propaganda war. One which we are losing, badly.

If I was Scottish or lived in Scotland I would want independence from the Tory UK. Scottish people clearly wants different things which is why they vote in the SNP and before that Labour whereas most of England votes in the Tories.
It would be my main reason for moving to Scotland, it clearly wouldn’t be the weather…

Scottish people clearly wants different things which is why they vote in the SNP

Hang on, hang on. We don’t know how many English people would have voted for a party like the SNP, because there wasn’t one available with critical mass of support.

BNP, UKIP, Brexit party. Take your pick.

It wouldn’t be the same anyway. Regional nationalist parties only really work in demographically and geographically minority areas which can survive on a single theme.

Yeah probably. The SNP has the advantage of being Scottish in an English dominated world. Post-indy you’d end up with the same rival factions throwing shit at each other the same as any other country, but being forced to work together for the sake of PR. Plus as centrists the SNP would continue to offer a votable party because they’ve already earned their credibility.

🙂

Patronising English arseholes wondering why Scotland might want independence

molgrips

Subscriber
Scottish people clearly wants different things which is why they vote in the SNP

Hang on, hang on. We don’t know how many English people would have voted for a party like the SNP, because there wasn’t one available with critical mass of support.

Lets not pretend this election was about policies, boris presented nothing, still no idea what he’s going to do.

It was an election based on personality and a shit slogan. Get brexit done…Which seems to work..

It was an election based on personality and a shit slogan. Get brexit done…

Which is a policy and one which a large portion of the electorate wants. Judging from the referendum and GE results somewhere between 46% and 52% want it. But with FPTP even 46% is a “majority”. Remove Brexit (hypothetically) from the election and I reckon even with Corbyn in charge Labour would have come out of this quite well. There’s no way they would have lost the likes of Bassetlaw and Bolsover.

Anyway, it begs the question I asked weeks ago, why on Earth did they think it was a good idea to agree to an election?

It is about winning. If you don’t win it’s because what you have to offer isn’t what people want. In a democracy a politicians job is to do what the people want.

Ideology is for dictators.