What?! You mean there’s going to be No Independent Socialist Republic of Grand Brittania after all?

I’ve bought a comradely hat and grown a little beard and everyfink

Who came second in 2017, who came second in 2015 ? If they were second comfortably then go with that. In my case that is Labour in a safe Tory seat. They haven’t got a chance in hell (Tory 66%, Labour 20%) and I am tempted to vote Green which is who I support so at least they get another vote in the big scheme of things.

Just checked Devizes and very similar to my position.

thanks Kerley will do that 👍

does anyone know if it’s possible to get a tactical vote flyer for your window?

I want to put one up to show i’m tactic voting, to encourage others.

If you put it in your window, it’s going to be seen by people in your area, who have the same voting choice as you. So say WHO you’re tactically voting for – for tactical voting to work, all the tactical voters need to have the same view about which party has the best chance of defeating your disliked party.
PS – don’t do that if you’re voting tactically because you want the Tories to win a majority.

fUlLy cOStEd…

I have now been sent the Labour dossier on their claim to save the average household £6,700. Even by the standards of modern politics, it is impossible to stress how bloody shoddy these numbers are and how quickly they fall apart. Thread follows, with occasional swearing.

— Robert Colvile (@rcolvile) December 4, 2019

Also, when TF is Johnson going to go before Andrew Neil? I mean, it couldn’t be as bad as Corbyn, shirley? So, what’s he got to lose?

Not sure I agree. Neo-liberalism is going great

It’s going great for a select few which gets smaller and smaller over time.

That’s the nature of it.

We wouldn’t be entertaining the possibility of a socialist government if it was going great.

We wouldn’t be entertaining the possibility of a socialist government if it was going great.

I’m afraid most people aren’t Rone. Well, not to the degree being offered at this election. I’m all for it… the British Public are not. “Not the Tories but not advised by far left communist millionaires” is what’s required to get the consent of the public for more left wing policies this decade. Improve and reform, not revolution. Might be boring, but might also win public support.

Drug prices, UK vs USA

? Insulin
?? £16.61 ?? £215.30
? 1300%

? Epipen 300mg
?? £52.90 ?? £523
? 1000%

? Statin 10mg
?? £0.46 ?? £4.50
? 980%

Trump and his Big Pharma cronies want to put up drug prices in our NHS.

As we head for polling day, remember what’s at stake.

— Mike Amesbury MP (@MikeAmesburyMP) December 4, 2019

One tiny country in the entire world. The EU’s not, the USA is not, even China abandons state ownership in the places it designates as places that are going to economically flourish.

The strong trend is away from socialism, not towards it.

You are the most astonishing mental gymnast.

Many countries in the EU is already democratic-socialist. China is moving in from hardline communism towards a middle ground. Seems reasonable that we could also move in towards the middle from the right.

Politics is a spectrum. So, too far left is bad (China), too far right is also bad (US, UK), but good is between those two (democratic socialism). So yes to private enterprise, but with state oversight so the rich and powerful don’t take the piss (USA and potentially the future UK).

re. EU countries.

EU is solidly Neo Liberal – it’s a neo-liberal club for rich nations. They’re making it compulsory to allow private train firms on networks. The whole thing exists to deregulate trade. Why do you think lefties hate it so much? Greece. Not one EU member has an NHS. Christ the TTIP had all my socialist friends going mad on FB. The markets love it. The EU bans state owned monopolies & prevents many subsidies.

Brexiteers aren’t arguing for leaving because it’s too socialist. Quite the opposite, if Labour win this election and go down the Brexit route it’s going to make their policies (manifesto and otherwise) far easier to carry out.

The one good thing that’s come out of Brexit is literally everyone now agrees that the liberal economics of the EU is good for the economy – Brexiteers accept the case for leaving isn’t economic and remainers all accept the case for remaining *is* economic.

I’d be genuinely interested in any credible source claiming the EU is remotely left wing, can you find one? [1] It’s a free marketeers dream and it’s “helped” some very left wing governments see the light and adopt some pretty fiscally tight policies.

[1] Here’s one the other way by way of a trade: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/07/lexit-eu-neoliberal-project-so-lets-do-something-different-when-we-leave-it

I’d be genuinely interested in any credible source claiming the EU is remotely left wing

Economically? Probably not. But at the same time, people are complaining about all the additional rules and regulations – so that makes it ‘large government’ doesn’t it, which would make it a bit more left wing. All that environmental legislation (one of the things I’m keen on) is not neoliberal.

You know what happened to TTIP? Yes?

Not in any detail. AFAIC they couldn’t get agreement from all the member states so it went ‘No deal’.

TTIP wasn’t really that popular with socialists:

Another example of the neoliberal essence of the project is given by the secretive negotiations for the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), a free trade deal the EU is brokering with the US. TTIP will further prise open sectors such as education and health to the multinationals, and equalise environmental protection and workers’ rights at the lowest level across the two regions.

http://socialistreview.org.uk/404/eu-referendum-should-we-stay-or-should-we-go

(Worth reading the whole article.)

Oh yeah, the Labour party campaigned against entry in the 70’s and campaigned to leave in ’83. Hard to see why the Labour party in its clause four days would have wanted to avoid membership if they thought it was a decent socialist enterprise!

Anyway I’ve googled and I can’t find anything that suggests the EU is anything other than Neo-Liberal, and not remotely socialist. It’s all about private ownership, fiscal rectitude, liberalizing trade and providing a cheap workforce to the wealthier nations. Remainers will tell you these are all good things, but they aren’t socialism, they are the diametric opposite.

Unless someone provides a link that credibly argues the EU is opposed to Liberal economics I’m not going reply on the subject of “is the EU neo-liberal” again. [1] I feel I’m wasting my time having to make the case that an organization that exists to liberalize markets isn’t a bastion of liberal economics. 😀

[1] Ovbs I’ll be posting on the thread, I’m addicted

Unless someone provides a link that credibly argues the EU is opposed to Liberal economics I’m not going reply on this topic again.

No one is ‘opposed to Liberal economics’.

TTIP didn’t happen because the USA neoliberal measures in it were rejected by EU countries.

Read up on Social Chapter and the EU regulations and standards that the neoliberals have fought against all the way.

Unless someone provides a link that credibly argues the EU is opposed to Liberal economics I’m not going reply on this topic again. I feel I’m wasting my time having to make the case that an organization that exists to liberalize markets isn’t a bastion of liberal economics.

(Bet you do post)

That’s awkward. When I said topic I didn’t mean thread. Post edited for clarity. 🙂

EU is solidly Neo Liberal

OK then.

Enjoyed Maitlis scratching the inside of her nostril on Newsnight just now :-0

And again.

…again.

This definitely. Momentum are nothing more than a fringe group designed to push the boundaries on policy.

If you spend any time listening to Laura Parker you can’t help but notice she’s eloquent, well-researched, reasonable in her logic and above-all extremely mannered. She’s a fantastic interviewee and I would urge anyone who’s half interested in progressive politics to check out her recent stuff on Novara.

John Lansman is slightly more colourful but is still an interesting talker. Both very pro-EU.

Momentum have been demonised beyond all levels of logic. The right have them down as some sort of extinction rebellion super terrorists and I think the reality is a little more Waitrose than that.

Anyway I’ve googled and I can’t find anything that suggests the EU is anything other than Neo-Liberal, and not remotely socialist.

Completely correct. It’s also the trajectory of it. It’s not what it was.

It is worth remembering that neoliberalism is a type of capitalism – so there are elements of the EU that are certainly all about markets an non-interference from the state.

It’s interesting how we all can’t agree what the EU is and what it isn’t, but that’s because we project on to it what we believe it is a force for.

I mean how do we interpret the recent block by some EU countries to reveal their tax affairs? That’s hardly moving in the direction of socialism is it?

It’s also fair to say that most working-class Brexit Party members wouldn’t use this as an argument either.