Iraq and libya where stable and wealthy countries pre 1990.

They were also dictatorships with dubious human rights records, but that doesn’t play into your narrative. It’s no wonder you cherry picked the defining characteristics.

They were also dictatorships with dubious human rights records

They certainly were. The question is did the interventions make it any better and have they ever made it any better. A dictatorship may not sound great but sometimes things are better left alone rather than killing a whole load of people and ending up with something no better.
Still, may have got some oil out of it and upped the sales of weapons…

If anyone wants to understand the history of our relationship with the middle east specifically Saudi, Iraq and Libya then watch Bitter Lake by Adam Curtis: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02gyz6b/adam-curtis-bitter-lake

Interesting to see that Dominic Raab could be providing this elections ‘Portillo Moment’ despite presently havig a 23,000 majority. Couldn’t happen to a nicer bloke

Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, is in danger of providing this election’s “Portillo moment”, after a poll in his constituency suggested that he was at risk of losing his seat.

Couldn’t happen to a nicer bloke

Fingers crossed – despicable fkr!

Hindsight lol! Are you serious?

So we know better after Libya right? If only there had been some examples of rgime change going wrong in recent history then maybe we would have known not to go into Libya. Ffs

Gammons be gammoning…

Ready for @Nigel_Farage in Buckley, North Wales, this morning.
Barry Clarkson, 79, and Alistair Sutcliffe, 71, travelled from St Helens with their knitwear. pic.twitter.com/HgdNFWHFmX

— Kate Proctor (@Kate_M_Proctor) December 2, 2019

Tory party really are doing trump type campaigning. Getting pulled up for dodgy editing of BBC broadcasts now. But apparently according to their campaign staff it’s ok as people can see from themselves that it’s ok, of course true as long as you have the time and skills to find what program all of the clips are from and watch each one to find the context of the comment. Shameful gutter campaigning.

a short snippet from John Brady Kiesling resignation letter dated march 4th which was printed in the New York Times

Have we indeed become blind, as Russia
is blind in Chechnya, as Israel is blind in the Occupied
Territories, to our own advice, that overwhelming military
power is not the answer to terrorism? After the shambles of
post-war Iraq joins the shambles in Grozny and Ramallah, it
will be a brave foreigner who forms ranks with Micronesia to
follow where we lead.

I take it you don’t believe Cummings resigned 3 weeks ago then.

The point is did anyone know it was going to end so badly?

Did you know beforehand there wasn’t a plan?

It was widely discussed at the time, a lot of knowledgeable people voiced their concerns about the lack of planning, they were on telly and everything.

Hels

Bannon has been doing the rounds in Europe for a while now. Connecting with like-minded people like Cummings and the far right networks across the EU. A lot of the tactics of misinformation and the abuse of data that the trump campaign an the leave campaign used are those pioneered by Putin

I take it you don’t believe Cummings resigned 3 weeks ago then.

All the dodgy shenanigans going on at the moment have his grubby fingerprints all over them

Poll tracker: changes last Monday.

The Britain Elects poll tracker – now updated.

Tories stagnant, Labour up 2pts, Lib Dems down 1pt.

CON: 42.4% (+0.2)
LAB: 31.8% (+2.1)
LDEM: 13.6% (-1.0)
BREX: 3.6% (-0.7)
GRN: 3.1% (-0.2)

Chgs. w/ last Monday (25 Nov)https://t.co/m1hoBpI81D pic.twitter.com/yy4u21sDm3

— Britain Elects (@britainelects) December 2, 2019

Labour were 7pts away from Tories at this point in 2017

In the aggregate poll?

So both party leaders already attempting to oversimplify and blame Friday’s killings on the actions of the last Labour government. Not good enough from either of them. They might both be making valid points… but the timing stinks. Our politics stinks.

People are not voting for representation but against other parties.

We have to.

Depressing but true. Especially depressing if you watched the C4 climate debate.

The coalescing around the two main parties just shows how broken our system is. People are not voting for representation but against other parties.

I take your point, but I’m not. I’m voting Libdem this time and not to stop another party:

1p on tax.
Revoke.
A sane(ish) policy on Zero hour contracts.
(Comparitive) Fiscal Rectitude.

The coalescing around the two main parties just shows how broken our system is

And the option is?

Its looking increasingly like the last election in people returning to the two main parties not for any particular confidence in them or desire to vote for them but from fear and distrust of the other lot. Of course, both Labour and the Tory’s will then take this as a vote of confidence and a positive endorsement of their policies. Same as they did last time.

Our entire political system is ****ed!

I’m getting my head around the appalling choices on offer by just thinking on a local level towards my rather good (non-Corbynite) labour MP who thoroughly deserves to continue in the job for what he does for the constituency. I’m just trying to ignore the absolute horror show at the top of both parties

Mostly “P” members posting on this page so may not have noticed, but today every single advert for me on this thread is a Tory sponsored “cost of Corbyn: £2400 more tax every year” claim and himself looking as comrade as possible.

A quick search confirms that this is bollocks (but also that labour are unlikely to raise enough through the means they claim)

https://fullfact.org/electionlive/2019/nov/25/conservatives-repeat-misleading-labour-cost-figure/

but today every single advert for me on this thread is a Tory sponsored “cost of Corbyn: £2400 more tax every year” claim and himself looking as comrade as possible.

Or click on it, get the details and research into them to make sure they are lies. That way at least it’s costing them as much as possible to spout out the rubbish.