[Closed] Helmet on road?

I'm going to stick to riding without, my gut feeling is that riding road bikes is pretty safe (despite the dickhead in a merc who thought that me riding in the primary position was in some way illegal and needed punishing)

Anyway I've not seen anything that merits wearing one.

How so DezB?

I think it illustrates just how different our culture is to the Netherlands

Exactly! I don't live in the Netherlands!

nice logic, Dales R!

but more seriously, we should think about this when we look at all the 'stats' >>

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias ]survivorship bias[/url]

I'd rather have my crash helmet in pieces than my head in pieces. I've been run over before whilst doing about 20mph and only wearing a beany hat. You'll gravitate towards the road very quickly at that speed and with a force that your arms will not be able to absorb.

What people seem to omit from their analysis on how safe something is is the objective and subjective dangers.

People arguing for places where it is safe to ride on the road with out a helmet are falling in to the trap of comparing places with different Objective Dangers.
The same applies to arguing that subjective dangers can negate the need to wear a helmet at all.

Reality is it just takes one objective danger to kill you, wearing a helmet may or may not save you but subjectively it gives you a chance.

do all the helmet advocates wear one when walking and inside a motor vehicle, because by their logic they should .

etc

Now I could do this but it is a poor argument

Arguing for PPE in one scenarios does not mean we have to wear it all scenarios or we would wear one to get out of bed as someone has died banging their head doing this.
In essence folk assess risks differently.
Many of us would not do what Danny Mac does on a bike yet that appears safe

Regarding survivorship bias?

I think the real bias is that those who would have been injured without a helmet but are protected [ perhaps at low speeds] dont feature in the research. Sure some folk will claim it saved their life [ and it is not like we will replicate so it true to say we cannot be sure] but we dont have stats for injuries and stats for not injured due to wearing a helmet for example as they surveys measure injuries not the situations where it did offer full protection.

The test for proving a helmet offers some protection is very easy to do so it has to be accepted that they do offer protection

We could debate whether it is enough but not whether it offers protection

junky, i was being slightly flippant, but since there are a lot of head injuries in vehicle incidents, it follows that wearing some protection will minimise this somewhat..... cycle helmets will provide some low impact protection granted, but to say they are essential and only fools ignore/decline their use is wrong on many levels.....

aye some people on both sides overstate the case 😉

I agree the car argument is not without merit but my only point is everyone is a hypocrit at some point in the world of PPE

but to say they are essential and only fools ignore/decline their use is wrong on many levels.....

I DO think it's foolish to not wear some simple protection. Every little helps. In a car you already have some protection, so having nothing on a bike seems foolish to me.

I think there's a lot of wilful or accidental confusion of two different arguments here, and on a broad scale, that confusion is dangerous to cyclists.

I choose to wear one on the road bike, usually. I'm happy on occasions not to. Frankly, the main reason I wear one is to stop some motorist's defence lawyer from reducing their liability after they've pranged me off, and to keep observers/loved-ones happy.

Absolutely it offers a marginal degree of protection that might apply in some circumstances. I might be grateful for that, but I think the chances of such a circumstance occurring are pretty low. I don't, for instance, choose to wear it in the shower (a common injury location, where ironically a slip is much more likely to replicate the actual tested circumstances applied to the lid). Likewise, I'm not going to buy my child a safety helmet for toddling around (they exist!).

Those of us using the Netherlands example DON'T miss the point in the way that's been implied. ABSOLUTELY general riding conditions are better there. However, the way we're conditioned in the UK to advocate helmets as a necessary sticking plaster probably does an awful lot more harm than good, because our version of safety for cyclists is handing out high-viz and helmets, rather than dealing with [url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3823515.ece ]the real dangers to cyclists[/url] the way Holland has so successfully done.

a common injury location, where ironically a slip is much more likely to replicate the actual tested circumstances applied to the lid).

our version of safety for cyclists is handing out high-viz and helmets, rather than dealing with the real dangers to cyclists

However, the way we're conditioned in the UK to advocate helmets as a necessary sticking plaster probably does an awful lot more harm than good, because our version of safety for cyclists is handing out high-viz and helmets, rather than dealing with the real dangers to cyclists

Indeed other things would offer us protection as well but it is not an either or

No, it's not, but as the TED talk I linked to argues, the general PPE culture around cycling actually harms cycling.

Remember, folks, it's also important to dismount at roundabouts.

[img] [/img]

I DO think it's foolish to not wear some simple protection.

Such as arm and knee protectors? Hi viz jacket?

There are weakness in both approaches doing the same hyperbole attacks on each other is futile

So you are a hypocrite for wearing a helmet if you dont wear PPE is like me arguing helmet less riders should be naked as clothes offer some protection to the limbs or they are also hypocrites

Its a crap argument hat works either way

Its a crap argument hat works either way

yogic bowel movement ?

As above - my elbows aren't as valuable as my brain.

And I do choose high visibility clothing yes.

PS I think people claiming that helmet wearing is a red herring becuase it diverts attention from safety is itself a red herring. Yes, we need proper driver and cyclist education, and provision for cyclists, but why not wear a lid at the same time? It's going to help reduce brain mangling, and that's a good thing.

[i]PS I think people claiming that helmet wearing is a red herring becuase it diverts attention from safety is itself a red herring. [/i]

That's not really what's being claimed. In my case I'm saying we need to be very careful of disproportionately entrenching the PPE culture, because it harms the fundamentally safe activity of cycling, and diverts attention to the wrong place. Less simple than you make it.

In short, I wear one, but we need to stop harping on about the bloody things and hold the right people to account for the right things.

By the way, there was a recent high-profile campaign in the Netherlands to give out helmets to kids and encourage them to wear them. The sponsor? A certain very large Dutch oil company.

(I recently rode up Ventoux and bought one of the photos of me from one of the roadside guys. My lid was strapped to the bars for the ascent. The first three people I showed it to said stuff like "tut tut, no helmet". Well no, I was riding at less than 7mph up a steep mountain, for about 14 miles in 30-degree heat and bright sunshine. Heatstroke was a far bigger risk than head injury. But it's all about the sodding helmets. We're bonkers)

ormondroyd, I know what you are saying, but on the other hand you run the risk of overcomplicating it too.

It's common sense, isn't it? Same as putting on shoes when you walk outside in case you step on a sharp stone. That doesn't mean it's ok for people to throw broken glass everywhere, of course. I don't think anyone thinks it is.

Same as putting on shoes when you walk outside in case you step on a sharp stone.

I think that's false equivalence. Shoes are utiltarian, not [i](edit)specifically[/i] PPE. A fairer analogy: Do you wear steel toe capped safety shoes every time you go to Tescos in case something runs over or falls on your foot? It could happen, and you'd definitely be safer with the toe caps.

(and pertinently: If it became expected that you'd need safety equipment at Tescos - after all, cans can fall off shelves any time - what would that do to people's attitude towards the activity of going to Tescos? That's kind of where cycling is now - the PPE culture adds to the sense of danger for what is basically a safe activity)

I recently rode up Ventoux and bought one of the photos of me from one of the roadside guys. My lid was strapped to the bars for the ascent. The first three people I showed it to said stuff like "tut tut, no helmet

I've never heard anyone comment about a lack of helmet (except here).

I don't actually know many people who wear helmets routinely.

i have had some comments about non helmet wearing , from other cyclists, i politely explain that i am not racing,and that i have managed to cope for the last thirty odd years without one... have come off a couple of times, but that was my fault...wet road going too fast, round a gravel strewn bend at speed--i knew both times i was risking it, so its about risk compensation for me....

Do you wear steel toe capped safety shoes every time you go to Tescos in case something runs over or falls on your foot?

You have to weigh up the liklihood of injury versus the severity of it. I'm not that likely to smack my head when I get on my bike, but if I do it could have terrible consequences. Far more so than a broken or even a lost foot.

I could also wear a full face helmet on my bike, but I don't because there's a compromise between protection and discomfort.

NO MOLLY NO

You cannot just wear a helmet you must go everywhere in armour or your argument is bollocks apparently

Ormondroy] that caricature is not aimed firmly at you as you at least explain your view well but it is still a crap argument

Can I argue if you dont shop in tescos in open toes sandals then non helmet wearers are hypocrites

As above - my elbows aren't as valuable as my brain.

You're assuming that a helmet would prevent a brain injury. Far more likely that it would stop a trip to A&E for stitches.

His looks are important tot him as well you know

[img] [/img]

Can I argue if you dont shop in tescos in open toes sandals then non helmet wearers are hypocrites

You've kind of lost me.

we need some trials, can I have some volunteers to have their heads smashed into the tarmac, your choice helmet or not.

FWIW last time a car hit me the driver got out and punched me, thankfully he hit my helmet. I'll wear one again.

Also with all of these I wonder if the law forbid the wearing of helmets how many would wear one just to prove that they could stick it to the man 😉

You're assuming that a helmet would prevent a brain injury. Far more likely that it would stop a trip to A&E for stitches

I think that it's reasonable to assume a helmet would lessen brain injury, don't you?

That inch of polystyrene isn't much, but it's a big improvement over what you've got without it. It deforms and gives your brain a lot more distance in which to slow down. I reckon it'd make a significant difference.

can I have some volunteers to have their heads smashed into the tarmac, your choice helmet or not.

Same argument as the hammer one - it completely ignores the research which shows that wearing a helmet makes you more likely to be smashing into that tarmac.

As before, anyone who thinks the issue is common-sense or black-and-white probably hasn't considered it properly.

it completely ignores the research which shows that wearing a helmet makes you more likely to be smashing into that tarmac.

I'm very sceptical of that research, to be honest.

I think that it's reasonable to assume a helmet would lessen brain injury, don't you?

I'm not sure: is there any evidence that brain injuries reduced in countries where helmets were made compulsory?

I'm very sceptical of that research, to be honest.

Risk compensation is very easy to prove - I've seen many people on this very forum say things like [i]"He's mad. No way I ride that without a helmet."[/i]

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/why-people-refuse-to-wear-helmets/page/5#postform http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wiggo-on-helmets http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-do-you-deal-with-folk-not-wearing-a-helmet http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bike-helmet-for-kids http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-helmet-debate-rumbles-on-in-the-mainstream-media http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/would-you-helmet-nazi-content#post-3139927 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-another-study-on-the-efficacy-of-bike-helmets#post-3128520 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/thank-god-for-helmets#post-3071801 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/so-i-decided-to-write-off-my-helmet-today#post-3015561 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/will-the-uk-every-be-like-this#post-3001646 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/no-helmet#post-2983986 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/my-helmet-is-very-deformed-graphic-photo-content#post-2963127 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-woman-who-tragically-died-in-dent-on-the-letjog-ride#post-2956453 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-2#post-2941835 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/cyclist-hit-15-times-with-hammer-by-driverfor-riding-too-slow-up-a-hill#post-2943106 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/this-really-makes-you-want-to-wear-a-lid#post-2919841 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/good-or-bad-advert#post-2894537 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/james-cracknell-wear-a-helmet-video#post-2783611 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bmxers-idiots#post-2758996 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/motorcyclist-protesting-helmet-laws-dies-in-bike-crash-while-not-wearing-helmet/page/3 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wear-a-helmet-kids#post-2705179 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-helmet-debate-on-radio-2-now#post-2584202 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/if-helmets-were-to-be-made-compulsory#post-2573922 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmet-on-your-child-always#post-2482018 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/some-very-sad-news#post-2476001 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-great-helmet-debate#post-2432920 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/kids-cycling-to-school-without-helmets-is-it-me-or#post-2368335 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/compulsory-helmet-law-in-ni#post-2236497 http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-smug-will-tj-be http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-possibly-the-last-word http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/anyone-else-hear-peter-thatchel-on-jeremy-vine-calling-for-compulsary-helmets/page/2

I'm not sure: is there any evidence that brain injuries reduced in countries where helmets were made compulsory?

Well there's two issues there.

1) In a laboratory test, I'm sure that a helmet would reduce the forces. I don't know if anyone's published that though

2) Real world stats are not the same thing, because many other factors are at play, some possibly unknown and un-noticed.

it completely ignores the research which shows that wearing a helmet makes you more likely to be smashing into that tarmac.

is there any evidence that brain injuries reduced in countries where helmets were made compulsory?

GrahamS your argument is now using safety equipment which allows you to perform a task more safely causes injury...have you run this past the HSE 😛

I am not saying there is not a point to your argument ] but each side presents its case like the other side dont have a point when they do, They often overstate their case and use stupid examples to highlight this

If neither side had a point and some evidence we would not be having the debate

Better to accept that arguments can be made either way and explain your own personal choice
Mine being i dont think it will save my life but it has stopped me being more injured so I will wear it

Who really 100% feels unsafe on the road? Years of riding motorcycles have made me quite defensive so I keep an eye out for car doors opening, am aware of people coming out of turnings and so on. My commute is cyclepath - park - cyclepath - bus lanes - a little bit of road in traffic and then park again to work. I'd say I'm in the line of fire for no more than 3 miles of a 14 mile ride. I just don't feel the need, yes there is always the worst case scenario to consider but that would most likely involve someone hitting me head on in a car at speed and I really think I'd be buggered helmet or not. I think it's a personal choice but unlike smoking or prodding a grizzly bear with a sharp stick I don't think the likely outcome is as bad as many make out. If helmets were [i]essential [/i] you'd have to wear them to hire a Boris and you don't, so they aren't otherwise there'd be litigation going on all over from unhelmeted hire bike users. I'm not saying they don't protect I'm simply saying protect me from what exactly, I'm bimbling along at 15-20mph mostly and I'm careful so I can stop before I get into trouble, it's a bicycle not a FZR 1000 after all.

I am not saying there is not a point to your argument ] but each side presents its case like the other side dont have a point when they do

Not at all. I fully accept there is a good case for helmets and I generally wear one myself (as stated earlier).

I just find all the shouts of "darwinism, lunacy, foolish, use commonsense" etc to be a bit patronising and hugely over-simplified.

The real situation, as always, is far more nuanced.

If helmets were essential you'd have to wear them to hire a Boris and you don't, so they aren't.

I don't think they are essential, but its my head and I want to protect it. I've trashed 3 helmets and I consider the pounds I've spent on them well spent.

I haven't seen in my eyes an argument yet for me not to wear one.

Anyway I've not seen anything that merits wearing one.

But you probably will that split second before your bonce impacts something and you wish that you had worn one.

Anyway, I'm amazed at the tripe that's being spouted here both for and against. A helmet probably won't safe your life or prevent a serious brain injury, despite what both the informed and uninformed claim. What it will do is increase your chances of surviving an accident to a greater or lesser degree. And that's all it will do.

Personally, I never sling a leg over a bike without strapping a brain bucket on first. I have a very broad sense of self preservation and TBH I'd rather look like a sweaty, uncool, bad-haired bell-end (pipe down at the back) than have to rely on someone else to wipe my arse for me or spoon feed me, or worse be dead (if that isn't a spurious argument in itself because I probably wouldn't care about much if I was dead...)

I often have arguments with friends who ride motorcycles in hot weather wearing shorts and t-shirts (and ironically full race gloves...) when I'm sweating like a sex-pest in my full leathers. If I have a bad enough accident I'll probably end up with broken limbs and internal injuries, but at least whoever has to pick me up won't have to be scraping me off the tarmac in bloody chunks, and I stand a better chance of surviving if my mangled carcass is relatively in one piece.

But then what do I know - experience, intuition and common sense count for very little these days...

Then all I can say is you need to be more careful. I've trashed one helmet riding off road in over 25 years and thousands of miles including 15 years on motorcycles (broken plenty of bones and had no end of wounds though). Perhaps the real issue here is untrained, unaware people taking to the roads without a clue about what they are doing and getting into a pickle. Also I'm noticing a steady increase in the price of these things a reasonable helmet now costing more than a proper full face motorbike lid. It smells of marketing to me. A simple truth is don't take risks on the road, the consequences can be fatal but I take risks on the MTB hence the helmet.

common sense count for very little

Yup, just like that. Thanks for the example john.