[Closed] Helmet on road?

GrahamS - Member

Okay Junkyard, so following that logic why don't you wear a helmet in the car?

Modern car headrests and airbags are not designed to be used with a helmet. 😀

As its deja vu all over again I bow out

Fair enough - it's an important point though.

As usual there are plenty of patronising people on this thread slagging off the non-helmet wearers saying it is a "no brainer", "lunacy" or "darwinism" not to wear a helmet on a road bike.

But those same people don't wear a neck brace on a bike, or a helmet in a car.

And they'd think anyone who did was a bit odd, despite the fact that these measures could save their life.

Good to have a free choice eh? 😀

Trotting out the same old BS that helmets are only designed to help in 10/12mph accidents and that if you ride faster than that they are totally ineffectual is either proof that the anti-helmet lot (who love to mention this) are deliberately lying or proof that they haven't really thought it through.
I hope it is the latter.

You appear to be having some trouble with basic comprehension, so let me set you straight. Helmets are designed to be effective up to around 12mph. They are progressively less effective in impacts rising above this speed, so in the 40mph example you quote, the notion that they're going to save your life is pretty laughable. It's polystyrene, not an anti-gravity forcefield.

my logic for wearing one is....

if i hit my head forcefully with a hammer without a helmet...

But have you taken into account the fact that wearing a helmet makes that hammer collision more likely?

Modern car headrests and airbags are not designed to be used with a helmet.

They seem to manage okay in car rallies. Perhaps remove the headrest altogether and use a proper helmet and neck brace?

But have you taken into account the fact that wearing a helmet makes that hammer collision more likely?

I'm the one with the hammer,..I'm not all that keen on hitting my head with a hammer, helmet or no helmet, so the collision is never going to happen. 😉

ransos - Member

You appear to be having some trouble with basic comprehension, so let me set you straight. Helmets are designed to be effective up to around 12mph. They are progressively less effective in impacts rising above this speed, so in the 40mph example you quote, the notion that they're going to save your life is pretty laughable. It's polystyrene, not an anti-gravity forcefield.

I thought I made it simple enough... 🙄

Let me try again.

You fall off your bike at 40mph.
Do you:

a) hit your head on an immovable object instantaneously decelerating it to 0mph?

or

b) some other scenario?

I'll give you a clue; it's unlikely to be "a".

Take your time.

I'll give you a clue; it's unlikely to be "a".

Depends on the crash surely? I take your point about horizontal and vertical vectors, but a typical road crash such as driving into the side of a van that pulled out on you from a side road could well result in "a"

GrahamS - Member

They seem to manage okay in car rallies. Perhaps remove the headrest altogether and use a proper helmet and neck brace?

Quick poll: who here uses a rally car for day to day driving?

Sorry Graham, I don't see many hands. 😳

Of course, cars could be made much safer in the event of a crash, but the vast majority of customers don't want this.

I knew someone who soloed with a helmet ...never saw the point of that

Probably to mitigate the risk of rockfall. A stone hitting you on the head without a helmet would probably cause you to fall off. A stone hitting you on the head with a helmet would probably cause nothing more than a brown-trouser moment. Just another factor in the risk-compensation calculation.

GrahamS - Member

Depends on the crash surely? I take your point about horizontal and vertical vectors, but a typical road crash such as driving into the side of a van that pulled out on you from a side road could well result in "a"

In a typical road crash the vehicle would be a car, which would probably not result in "a".

I'm not saying "a" doesn't happen, just that it is unlikely.
Like serious accidents.

Quick poll: who here uses a rally car for day to day driving?

Or a rally suit in a reasonably priced car?

[img] [/img]

Of course, cars could be made much safer in the event of a crash, but the vast majority of customers don't want this.

Yup. And everyone accepts that. So why can't people accept that some cyclists just don't want to wear a helmet?

Really?

I enjoy the debate. It is always worth having.
But condescending insults do get in the way. They hugely oversimplify what is actually a pretty complex issue.

http://road.cc/content/news/85306-top-scientists-cycle-helmets-debate-will-go-and-and

In a typical road crash the vehicle would be a car, which would probably not result in "a".

Aren't 50% of fatalities in London caused by incidents with HGVs?

GrahamS - Member

Or a rally suit in an reasonably priced car?

That car won't be that reasonably priced once you've fitted the roll cage, racing seats and harnesses. 😉

So why can't people accept that some cyclists just don't want to wear a helmet?

I'm happy for anyone to cycle without a helmet, I just get a little tired of people using BS to justify their position.

GrahamS - Member

Aren't 50% of fatalities in London caused by incidents with HGVs?

You've moved the goalposts now, naughty!
What % of accidents are fatal?

Yes, and since I saw

very yes.

I wear one but I'm very dubious as to how much protection it really gives. All the "my helmet was in pieces" stories do forget a bit that helmets DO break into pieces very easily. I've done it with a light impact that I'm sure wouldn't have done much damage to my unhelmeted head.

ANYWAY, what I don't agree with is the "it's stupid not to wear one" line. In the Netherlands and Denmark, injury rates are a fraction of UK injury rates, yet helmet use is near enough zero.

Basic health and safety theory - the top of the triangle is the most effective measure:

[img] [/img]

Focusing on helmets gives the motor vehicle lobby a big straw man. It results in articles about cyclists hit by cars that focus on the fact that "the cyclist was not wearing a helmet" even if they died of chest injuries. It misses the point hugely and therefore it's dumb.

been whacked loads of times by branches

Likewise. Unfortunately the bloody big holes designed to allow air to flow effortlessly over my sweaty bonce were also large enough to allow a branch to thwack me on the forehead. On numerous occasions.

I'm starting to think a pisspot is the way forward...

All the "my helmet was in pieces" stories do forget a bit that helmets DO break into pieces very easily

And absorb energy in the process. You might as well say 'airbags are rubbish, look at them all hanging out of the dash like johnnies, how can they give you any protection?'

hanging out of the dash like johnnies

🙂

A very juvenille turn of phrase but funny nonetheless.

I thoroughly recommend this brilliant talk.

"Copenhagen's bicycle ambassador talks about how important the bicycle is for liveable cities and how bicycle helmets are threatening bicycle culture."

It's no worse than those who use an anecdote of "a helmet saved my life one time" as a reason for wearing one

And for cool videos, how about this one?

Look at all these people who WILL SURELY DIE

[img] [/img]

Oh, hang on, they're riding in the safest place for cyclists on Earth.

Like I say, I wear one, but the way many people harp on about them being completely essential and it being stupid not to wear one... it boils my piss a bit because it's just playing into the hands of people with vested interests against cycling.

ormondroyd: You get it.

[img] [/img]

Ive never landed on my head whilst riding an mtb so perhaps no need to wear one according to the OP?

I always wear a lid for off road.

I always wear a lid for road rides, unless I'm just popping to the shop which is along a quiet road, through an alley.

I wear a lid off road in case I make a mistake and fall off. I wear a lid on road rides in case some external force makes a mistake be it a car, a dog, a lorry, a pedestrian etc. eg things I can't predict.

It's about risk and hazard, there are too many muppets about that I have no control over, one of them is me.

A cat (ironically) dived into my front wheel in a side road a few years ago. I was doing about 25mph. I landed on my shoulder then head, the helmet hitting the road. It was a big crash and the helmet did its job. Had I not been wearing it, well, look at the damage.

Catlike Whisper remains:
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

So who here thinks people are stupid if they don't wear a helmet when they walk to the shops?

Don't give the slightest toss what anyone else does, but always wear mine on the commute. Saved me bonce a couple of times too.
Your 'ead, your choice.

Look at all these people who WILL SURELY DIE

I've no axe to grind, do what you want, but where I ride is more like:

[img] [/img]

I wear one all the time - being hit by a car and ending up with a huge crack in the helmet a mile from home means I do it even for short trips. I guess for me it was already ingrained before the accident from cycling proficiency in the 80s and then reinforced by the accident.

This weekend I rode with a different (faster) group at club and was interested to see that the (mature) group leader didn't wear one, just a cap. I'd kind of assumed that club rides would be like sportives with a no helmet no ride policy but it seems not (I'm still new to the club so learning all the rules).

And for cool videos, how about this one?

Cat-boarding made this thread worthwhile.

The difference in the Netherlands isn't (just) down to infrastructure. Look at how the press, public and courts react to a car/cyclist accident. Note: not one mention of helmets.

Let me try again.

You fall off your bike at 40mph.
Do you:

a) hit your head on an immovable object instantaneously decelerating it to 0mph?

or

b) some other scenario?

I'll give you a clue; it's unlikely to be "a".

Take your time.

Do you think that in a 40mph crash, your head will do a nice neat 12mph vertical drop to the floor like they do in the laboratory, or is it just possible that other forces might just be involved? F=0.5M*V^2

Take your time.

Yes, it's the law here. Don't have a problem with it.
A friend who works in Road Safety here was visiting Denmark where his counterparts wished they could bring in mandatory helmets for bike riders but the public opinion would stop them.

The difference in the Netherlands isn't (just) down to infrastructure. Look at how the press, public and courts react to a car/cyclist accident. Note: not one mention of helmets.

We know that countries very safe for cycling (Denmark & Netherlands) have low levels of helmet wearing, and that where helmets were made compulsory (Australia and Canada?), safety didn't improve. Clearly then, other factors are much more important.

As I've said before, I wear a helmet, but that's because it might reduce the severity of a low speed bump, rather than save my life.

A friend who works in Road Safety here was visiting Denmark where his counterparts wished they could bring in mandatory helmets for bike riders but the public opinion would stop them.

The public in Denmark are probably aware that cycling there is very safe. I was there earlier this year, and rather enjoyed cycling without a helmet.

If you look at Danish cyclists, bikes are generally utilitarian and they rarely wear any cycle specific clothing - it's just part of normal life for them.

If you look at [s]Danish[/s][b]Australian[/b] cyclists [b]in cities[/b], bikes are generally utilitarian and they rarely wear any cycle specific clothing [b]except a helmet[/b]- it's just part of normal life for them.

Edit as the roads of the UK and the rest of the world are very unfriendly towards cyclists it may be worth adopting a different attitude.

I don't wear one on the road because I've never come close to having a crash other than once when I was playing around on the ice, down to my own stupidity 😆 I often feel I probably should wear one as I've had a few close shaves with cars on roundabouts, but I mostly ride on country roads and hardly ever see any cars. Always feel I should be wearing one when I'm on a 40+ mph descent though!

I wear one 'cos all the pros do and they're bestest at everything innit

The difference in the Netherlands isn't (just) down to infrastructure. Look at how the press, public and courts react to a car/cyclist accident. Note: not one mention of helmets.

That's one of the most depressing cycling related videos I've ever seen.

Edit as the roads of the UK and the rest of the world are very unfriendly towards cyclists it may be worth adopting a different attitude.

Such as a friendlier attitude? I Kinda take your point, but there's no strong evidence that helmet-wearing improves our safety, so just maybe what we should all be asking for are measures that actually work.

That's one of the most depressing cycling related videos I've ever seen.

How so DezB?

I think it illustrates just how different our culture is to the Netherlands. The same incident here would probably result in long articles about dangerous cyclists and the driver being awarded compensation for the trauma.

do all the helmet advocates wear one when walking and inside a motor vehicle, because by their logic they should .

Always a strange argument

99.9% say I always wear one off road

3-5% argue for not wearing on road.

Me well I have never damaged a helmet off road, hurt arms, legs stomach. I ride off road with the ever present likely hood of falling off.

On road I have grazed my elbow once but when hit by a car [she didnt see me on the roundabout] I suffered bad enough head injury but thankfully the helmet did its job., interestingley as I was going out with my bike I last minute decided to take my helmet, I didnt normally ride on road with one.

So conclusion if I hadnt have stopped to get my helmet I would have been across the roundabout before she arrived, Helmets are dangerous.