The STW Ski & Snowboard thread. The 2016-2017 season

Tignes avalanche.

Appears to be confirmed with 4 casualties, 2 recovered alive and 3 missing

Off piste slope

😐

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38954628

If photo is of avalanche location it looks a relatively shallow slope

Sad news indeed from Tignes. Worrying that it seemed to be a guided group, not just a group of punters, although also worrying that they’re not sure how many were in the group to start with, if they went out with a guide.

Also

The avalanche warning level at Tignes on Monday was three out of five

means nothing. Avalanche risks vary hugely for each slope, depending on the angle, the compass facing of the slope, the snowpack’s history, the recent winds, the temperatures and precipitation through the season… it’s almost deliberately deceptive to describe the avalanche rish for a whole resort with just one very vague number. And can encourage people to underestimate the risks involved in going off-piste.

</rant>, sorry.

…and when was the last time that a christmas-voting-resort-turkey put a “5” up on the resort risk board?

It’s the big off piste slope above the free beginners lift in Tignes. I’ve skied the part below the avalanche barriers but not the bit further left which went.

Temperatures are rising and some of the big accumulations high up are starting to avalanche as the snow softens. One of the problems with climatic change is that there are more heavy Spring type avalanches in the middle of the ski season when things used to be quite stable (report on French TV last week)

Before and after web cam pics

The avalanche warning level at Tignes on Monday was three out of five

Three = significant risk. not “oh *** it if we don’t go now we’ll not get first tracks.”

🙁

Edit – isn;t that where a UCPA group got caught in an avalanche recently? More, a UCPA group without beeps and other avvy gear?

it if we don’t go now we’ll not get first tracks.

It was already well tracked out. Everything easily skiable in my local resort was heavily tracked by last Thursday night. By Saturday the only untracked stuff to play in was steep, crusted and not much fun to ski – but I skied it all the same.

“recently”, nearly four years ago, nbt.

It sounds terrible. Lets not get into speculation just yet.

Three = significant risk

semantics perhaps, but a 3 = Considerable. i.e. the snowpack is unstable on *many* slopes over 30 degrees and should therefore influence your go/no go decision making process.

Worrying that it seemed to be a guided group

Indeed – although HAT have posted that the group was with an instructor rather than a guide.

Very sad indeed. 🙁

No-one is speculating, the circumstances are available in the article I linked with more detail elsewhere. You don’t need 30° for a slope to avalanche. 25° is generally reckoned to be the lower limit and even a little lower on smooth surfaces such as flattened grass.

Instructors go through training programmes that include snow pack risk assessment just like guides. They all go through ENSA these days.

Even if guided this

The avalanche appeared to have been set off by a group of skiers higher up, the ski station said in a statement.

is now one of my biggest fears when in the backcountry.

Instructors go through training programmes that include snow pack risk assessment just like guides. They all go through ENSA these days

Indeed – I wasn’t disputing that – [as I also mentioned on another thread], in France, the ‘Carte Pro’ allows you to instruct ‘off piste’. I was just pointing out that HAT was reporting that the group were being ‘instructed’ off pistes rather than ‘guided’ … which is an important distinction I think.

I don’t know what HAT is and Google doesn’t help. If it’s on the Web link it.

HAT = Henry’s Avalanche Talk HAT[/url]

Sorry Edukator … HAT = “Henry’s Avalanche Talk”

Clicky[/url]

The comments below the article on Skipass are as close as you’ll get to the horses mouth. I still fail to see the difference between guided and instructed given that the avalanche was within an area where both professions are competent and it doesn’t matter what the context was, they were just unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time. Blame if there is any to be attributed will come later as in the case referred to by nbt.

they were just unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time

Completely agree.

My distinction regarding instructor/guide is more around perception and understanding rather than the specifics of this unfortunate incident. You may well be right and a UIAGM/IFMGA/IVBV guide etc could well have been caught in similar tragic circumstances.

However, increasingly often I hear people use the term ‘guided off-piste’ when in fact they mean ‘instructed’. There is a difference in my opinion – similar to the following distinctions

engineer/technician
consultant/registrar

etc

For sure there are overlaps but the two terms are not interchangeable.

Is it relevant in this sad incident? Maybe not, but I believe it’s important to try and stick to the established facts.

Bonjour from Les Menuires. Obligatory drinky pic, stopped for a cheeky Vin Chaud for elevenses. 😀

Spring skiing here, 11° and sunny at base, snow is in very good nick though.

A useful map. A little caution is needed in the interpretation. Once started avalanches can travel a long way. You need to know not only which slopes are likely to avalanche but also the route they take and how far they are likely to go.

Surely the difference between guide and instructor is mainly about the punter and what you do.
Off piste, properly off piste, I’d need an instructor talking me through things, pointing things out, demonstrating things. A guide would surely be for people already competent off piste.
The differences would be in speed of travel, accuracy of execution etc.
I know for example in soft snow all too often I put too much pressure through the board. If I was with an instructor I’d expect to be somewhere where that leaves me sat on my behind (probably sinking) and being laughed at. If I was being guided and the guide assumed I knew what I was doing, there might be more consequences.

Surely the difference between guide and instructor is mainly about the punter and what you do.

To a certain extent, yes …

However, all to often I hear it said “you should have a Guide to go off-piste” , which is incorrect and some people will see the cost of hiring a Guide for a day and they think ‘sod that’ and either miss out or take a risk, when in both cases an appropriately qualified and experienced Instructor may well be sufficient

And on the flip side some people think that an Instructor with a Carte Pro (or similar) is a cheap way to be ‘guided’ off piste …

igm – I agree with you that an Instructor is probably the first port of call when taking your very first steps away from groomed runs, however a good Guide will also be able to give you hints, tips and guidance regarding technique (as well as other aspects of backcountry travel) as long as you’ve already got the fundamentals covered.

For example, you don’t need to be anything more than a solid intermediate piste skier (i.e. European Red runs) to ski the likes of the Vallee Blanche, but you should probably do it with a Guide unless you’re confident at traveling over glaciated terrain/crevasse rescue.

Accidents happen with Guides and Instructors too. It’s about risk reduction not elimination.

I too have skied that off piste and it’s pretty steep at the top. You can traverse / hike around the top a bit or cut in much lower down where it’s less steep and certainly somewhere an instructor might take a group for a little off piste instruction.

Edukator it used to be possible to get the proper detailed IGN maps on geoportal but they seemed to have changed it ?

From the Guardian 🙁

The victims of the avalanche at Tignes were reported to be a 48-year-old French man, his 15-year-old son and the teenager’s 19-year-old half-brother, according to the emergency services. The fourth, an Ecole du Ski Français snowboard instructor was named as Laurent Ruiz, 59, an experienced mountain professional.

As we’re talking about France I suggest the French legal framework. Assuming you actually feel the need to be “guided” as in shown the way down rather finding you own route down:

If you want to go ski-mountaineering (ski alpinisme) in high mountains outside a ski resort you need a mountain guide.

If you want to ski down from a lift off piste in a ski resort then you need a moniteur hors piste.

If yo u want to ski down from a lift that’s considered haute montagne (Vallée Blanche) then you need a guide or a moniteur-guide.

The divisions between the different activities are flexible to some extent but jurisprudences are there to tell people when they are stepping out of their domaine de competence. If you want to ski down that face in Tignes then the obvious person to hire is a fully qualified moniteur de ski. It’s very much a part of the ESF’s regular business. If you want instruction during the descent then ask the moniteur for for it, if not you’ll get a few tips along the way. It’s a service, you make what you will of it.

The reasons for hiring a moniteur hors piste depend on the client but people I know who use them simply want to be shown around the best hors piste runs in an unfamiliar resort. Thus benefiting from the moniteur’s local knowledge of runs, snow conditions, objective risks and difficulty. It’s not a 100% guarantee of safety (as today’s unfortunate accident shows) but it does mean you’re less likely to:

-ski down the wrong couloir
-misread the snow conditions and avalanche risk
-attempt something beyond your ability (junior is really rigorous about assessing a client before doing anything difficult even on piste)
-get lost
-ski over a cliff
-etc.

Edit. for the IGN maps you have to go into the normal Geoportal site rather than the risks one, Jamba.

see below

Nasty place for a slide, know it well and that bund at the bottom would have made a firkin big hole full of concrete snow. Ugly.
I had a slide myself quite near there in 1998 on my lunch hour 😯 Naughty and I got spooked by it as I knew better (was doing Mtn Guide training at that point!)
Thoughts with all concerned, there but for the grace of god etc etc

The guide I used to use in Chamonix was a ski instructor during his military service so covered both bases well. Also understood the importance of a good lunch.

Bonjour from Les Menuires

#strangest

I used to link pics from Google + but it doesn’t seem to work any more. Have they stopped direct linking or something?

Last Friday on the local nordic circuit.

Your hair has grown a bit 😉

id say madame could do with a hat and gloves for her birthday this year Edukator!

> Bonjour from Les Menuires

#strangest

Apologies, that wasn’t really fitting for the tone of the thread at that point. 😳 On my mobile and hadn’t caught up with the other posts.

Au contraire, I’d say it brought a welcome light relief

Agreed

Yep, I think we’d all prefer to see a dishy dreamboat 😉

(The “strangest” was a reference to Dai Darcy of this parish, who would on occasion display the “strangest boner” when aroused!)

Who’s been editing 😉

I wonder if nbt will post a photo of his dreamboat 🙂

Ah gotcha Flashy. I’ll post some more Blue Steel later then if it helps nurse that semi a bit longer 😉

Another sunny blue sky day here in 3 Valleys. Snow holding up very well.

Good to hear Gee. Where you been?

that wasn’t really fitting for the tone of the thread at that point.

au contraire … it was indeed light relief – the STWS&ST equivalent of a seal ‘photobomb’ 😆 😆