[Closed] Aluminium road bike comeback...?

Yup. Allez and Kinesis also, RCUK did a wee article recently.

I don't think hydroforming changes where material is though, it takes a tube and re-shapes it only, so that affects stiffness (significantly?) but not strength I think.

I have an aluminium Tricross, it rides well and has destroyed the prejudice against aluminium that I acquired in the 1990s from a couple of very stiff mountain bikes.

I don't think hydroforming changes where material is though, it takes a tube and re-shapes it only, so that affects stiffness (significantly?) but not strength I think.

I did wonder about that. If you have a thickness of tube could you stretch and squeeze it in such a way that you'd have a thicker wall in some places than in others? Someone will probably be along to explain it all soon 🙂

Giant do seem to have taken it to another level with the Propel. This one piece head tube and top tube for example...

[img] [/img]

Also saw a CAAD10 turn up at a local event last night, lovely alu bike that. The Allez Smartweld would make a great race bike too.

You really don't need to spend 16 grand a year to get nice race bikes like [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-supposedly-incredible-cost-of-racing-ridiculous-article-content ]this knob[/url] 😉

Hydroforming can do some really clever things - it really comes down to cost as to how clever you can be and whether carbon then becomes easier/cheaper to achieve it.

For example you can hydroform from plain gauge tubes or from tubes that are already variably butted. The latter costs a lot more, is more complex and is (I believe) less consistent but can give better strength:weight since you can put material where you want it.

I did wonder about that. If you have a thickness of tube could you stretch and squeeze it in such a way that you'd have a thicker wall in some places than in others? Someone will probably be along to explain it all soon

Tubes are placed into forming moulds and then forced outwards by hydraulic fluid. So if you *could* apply enough pressure to change the thickness of the walls, it would be even on all sides.

That Propel front end is very impressive.

I did wonder about that. If you have a thickness of tube could you stretch and squeeze it in such a way that you'd have a thicker wall in some places than in others?

[img] ?1430469767[/img]

There's also a section on 'why alu?' on this page: http://masoncycles.cc/thinking/the-tubing

is that rack mounts on that beauty above? 🙂

What's with the cables on that Giant!? Vertically into the top-tube?

back2basics - Member

is that rack mounts on that beauty above?

the-muffin-man - Member
What's with the cables on that Giant!? Vertically into the top-tube?

#aeroiseverything

That Mason stuff looks interesting, they've certainly invested in lots of marketing BS!

Weirdly was discussing that Mason at work this morning - their pricing is a bit odd. There's an Ultegra mechanical/hydro brake one for £2700, but the Di2 version which is essentially identical otherwise (different bar/stem) is £3700, which is significantly more than the sum of the parts.

Great looking bike though - particularly that colour scheme.

That is odd. Same wheels? That Mason's not really my sort of thing, rather nice all the same and seems to be getting a lot of media attention.

So why would you go Ally rather than Carbon? I assume price wise its similar?

njee20 - Member
Weirdly was discussing that Mason at work this morning - their pricing is a bit odd. There's an Ultegra mechanical/hydro brake one for £2700, but the Di2 version which is essentially identical otherwise (different bar/stem) is £3700, which is significantly more than the sum of the parts.

Flagship model has flagship price? Or the OE prices don't align with the AM prices for small companies.

Why assume carbon is better?

Does mrblobby work for cytech?

I was discussing this with them on their FB page earlier today and it seems a bit of a co-incidence.

I am under the impression that a high-end steel frame can rival an ally one for weight and stiffness, but I think it's more expensive to make such a beast.

Because it's typically lighter/stiffer/more compliant ( 😉 ) and the pros ride it. 🙂

Why assume carbon is better?

We are told it is the lightest and stiffest material. ?

I only have ally bikes, always have done. Does that mean I am trendy now 8)

I am under the impression that a high-end steel frame can rival an ally one for weight and stiffness, but I think it's more expensive to make such a beast.

Lightest steel frame I've ridden was 1560gm (58cm) Sintesi Pegaso. The ride was closer to alu than most steel frames (it is oversized) but I didn't really like it - it's the skinny light steel frame ride I like.

IIRC Salsa made a 1300gm steel frame which I've tried to buy and failed (someone on here let me down). Alu frames can be around 1.1kg IIRC, not ridden one, though my (actual) 1450gm CAAD10 rode really well (not dissimilar to my Six!)

FunkyDunc - Member
We are told it is the lightest and stiffest material. ?

Don't...don't...don't believe the hype!

I guess the old advantages of carbon are the ability to make complex shapes and put the material exactly where it's needed. That's probably less of an advantage now.

I guess weight is still an advantage as the alu frames of the Emonda and Propel are heavier than the carbon equivalents.

People will still likely claim they prefer the "intrinsic ride characteristics" of one over the other!

Does mrblobby work for cytech?

No idea who they are!

So why would you go Ally rather than Carbon? I assume price wise its similar?

cheap carbon is not to everyones taste. would rather have a nice alloy frame than the chinese stuff planet-x and rubble churn out.
mainly on looks but often the ride is as good or better for the similar money. cheap carbon just looks dull and er ‘cheap’ nobody ever crowded round a dribble/dolan/planet-zzzz/cube etc for a closer look.

Interesting stuff.

Al. - those two frames, any ideas what the actual material used was [ie not just the brand] ?

CF for me, though if I wanted to race* 🙂

*errr, is there a rest stop?

Dedacciai EOM 16.5, the Salsa maybe something from True Temper? I'll google.

EDIT

http://salsacycles.com/bikes/archive/primero

3.1lb = 1.4kg, True Temper S3

No idea who they are!

!

Oh are they the workshop training guys?

Edit... Just checked out their facebook. Bit of a coincidence but it is a fairly current bit of bike news. I was going to post something about the new carbon Merida frame too which I see is also being discussed!

🙂

Friend of mine has recently built up a stealthy black Allez that's as light as anything and rides brilliantly.

Good frame materials never really go out of fashion!

Swedish Chef posted this racey Allez in another thread...

[img] [/img]

Bit of an explosion in a paint / decal factory but I do rather like it.

Just bought a Caad10 frames to race while my cracked Giant warranty gets sorted. It's really a thing of beauty and unbelievably light for alu.

CAAD10's just look right...

[img] [/img]

(Spem spacers and angle aside!)

I had Look aluminium frame back in the day around 1.4 kg with a full carbon fork sub 0.5kg. Awesome bike with brilliant handling, I could 2 wheel drift in the wet on 23 mm tyres. Also comfy for 100+ mile rides.

The only thing that was slightly dodgy was the 1" full carbon fork meant you could bend the handlebars down almost like a Flexstem. Still it did make the front of the bike comfy.

I'd love a Look or Time frame now.

That Cannondale looks pukka as well. Road bikes should have flat top tubes IMO, none of this compact cack as demonstrated by that Trek at the top of the thread.

cheap carbon is not to everyones taste. would rather have a nice alloy frame than the chinese stuff planet-x and rubble churn out.

(I've got a caad5 seems ok, nowt to compare it to tho.... except a milk race from back in the day)

don't allez/caad tend to be a few hundred quid more than the similarly specced planet x cheap carbon models? Do PX posher carbon models at a similar price not compare better ride wise with the nice ali frames?

no idea? possibly? I’m not likely to be in the market for carbon frame popped out of a mould with a mass market makers name decal placed on it.
well thought out alloy, custom oversize steel, tube to tube custom carbon in that order.
£650, £1500-£2000, £2500 respectively. size restricted generic £800 carbon isn’t on my radar.

Great to see more alu race bikes, not sure that Trek is quite alu £€$ though, removes the main advantage of aluminium if it's the same price as carbon.

mrblobby - Member

Swedish Chef posted this racey Allez in another thread...

There was a pretty s**** looking Bowman in that same thread, IIRC 😀

don't allez/caad tend to be a few hundred quid more than the similarly specced planet x cheap carbon models?

Yup.
Because they're probably better.
I was recently handed some actual comparative test info (as in lab tests, strength, stiffness, etc) comparing a Spesh Smartweld alloy frame to a PX and Boardman carbon frame. I can't remember the actual numbers but the Spesh frame was stiffer laterally (something like 46% stiffer then the PX if I recall correctly) yet more compliant vertically than both of them, and within not very much of the weight, in fact it might have been lighter than one of them......Cant remember for sure. It sort of backed up what I already suspected that a good alloy frame is better then a cheap carbon one.

theflatboy, yes, and it had a curious choice of seatpost if I remember correctly 😉

PP, I can well believe that. With frames like the Aithein, CAAD10, Allez and Bowman about for not much more money than cheap carbon, I know which I'd rather have.

That is odd. Same wheels?

Yep! It's not the flagship one either, there's a Dura Ace Di2 one which is £5000, and can't be full Dura Ace because it's got Shimano Hydro discs, so must still have the R785 STIs. That still has the same (£350 wheels), but does have nicer bar and stem. Bit weird. The frames are available for £895, just doesn't all add up.

I swear some of this "Cheap carbon vs expensive alu" shit is just snobbery and elitism.

Yes, a brand new 2015 caad10 is a little lighter than a 2005 Scott Carbon road frame. But a modern say.. Cube Agree, or Canyon? In what way is it better - lighter? Stiffer? More impact resistant? On what basis is your argument made?

That Propel is impressive. And I've just ordered an SL2 to replace the Advanced (RIP). But... the alloy TCR SLR never sold well at £1200, the CAAD10 is pretty much the last pro-spec alloy frame standing, and harder still, an ADVANCED level Propel or TCR can now be had (with alloy steerer tube) for the same price as the previous all alloy TCR.

Giant have effectively removed the "Composite" line and started the "advanced" line at the same price. So whilst the picture is enticing, and those were £1350 wheels when I bought them for my Defy SL, I suspect that the propel will be targeting CAAD8 buyers and the like in the £500-£1000 price range. It probably won't come with those wheels either. But what a first-time race bike 😯 . Or spare...

I always feel a bit hard done to if they hide away an alloy steerer inside the frame. You can always upgrade components but its harder to upgrade a fork in the same design to get a carbon steerer at a later date.

Carbon is definitely a bit smoother over the bumps but I race aluminium cos it feels a bit sharper. And the thought of scrapping a carbon frame in the crashes I see at virtually every race keeps me away from buying one for now....