Zwift Team Time Trial, Thursday

This one explains the basis for Pacelines

ZI Speed curves by wkg are Here

At a basic level working out with those is helpful.

yeah, I think steepish hills are survival-blob territory but it’s worth everyone stating what they think they might feasibly survive & still keep riding. I could prob TT with a bunch of 60kg A riders, right up to the base of the first hill and then I’d die and be useless as part of their team

The hill essentially is 1 min steep, 2 mins plateau or shallow hill and then 1 min steep so will likely blob for the steep bits and maybe have a plan for the middle plateau with two lighter rides taking a pull each for 1 minute as they will get a rest on the hills.

Would also propose a stronger/lighter rider at the back so if someone drops of the block there is someone to call it or bridge the gap. If you fall of the back on a hill normally you are gasping for air so going on discord and asking for help isn’t always helpful!

You can tell I am more bored in this lockdown!

Try to plan that the weaker riders are due their turn on the front at the key hills, means they should be best rested to put in harder pulls. If they’ve just rolled off the front having done big effort then you risk blowing them out the back.

The course is as below so I think this highlights the areas to focus on. You might not need to blob coming out of the Esses but that hill is steeper than people realise and you have to be as a group there to prevent a split happening as you go over the top. The pulls on the shallow hill section could also just be done as a blob or you try and let a good climber do a pull.

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That article from Zwiftinsider is useful @mrhoppy. Some interesting comments about using a lollipop formation (first two riders in a paceline then a blob) as being efficient but easier to manage than say a 8 man line. Also, ‘don’t rest falling back, rest moving up’ is helpful. A minor point but I have trouble on the Tron bike working out if I’m in the draft or not so may move to an aero road bike for Thursday if we are more likely to use a paceline.

@slowpuncheur that’s why I don’t ride the tron for TTT (although I did last Thursday). This week I will prob go Canyon Aeroroad with DT swiss wheels to improve my climbing. You are a good climber so might want to go with something more aero as you wont need the help on the climb.

i’ll have a look at an aero bike as well, i’m rubbish at drafting I know that and always end up putting out to many wkgs and so yo yo front to back.

I’ve just splashed out on a Spesh Venge S-Works and will run it with 808s. I wish it was that easy in real life!

We’re on 11 riders. Any more? @mbs, Jack, @drew, @yanboss, @benman others?

Thursday, 7.40pm. 3x Watopia Hilly Reverse

Enter Cat A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1645529

Thanks for the reminder @savoyad, just signed up now.

Think I’m going to bow out of this week. I’ve got a day off on Thurs and the weather looks good, so will hopefully do a few outside miles instead.

As I’m out of the race this evening I’ve signed up savoyad, hopefully I’ll feel less like I’ve had an elephant trampling round inside my skull by then!

Jack thinks he cannot make Thurs TTT, if it changes I’ll update.

Would like to join in on Thursday for the first time.
I’ve only used Zwift a handful of times, so hopefully I’ve done this right – I’ve joined the “STW” team up on Zwiftpower and I have entered the event Savoyad posted above. Do I need to do anything else at this point?

Can someone explain the results to me? https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1596293

What does the “F” mean against the (STW) part of the “STW” team, compared to the “A” against the (MoreSTW) part of the team?

Not entirely sure on how the team filtering is done, but it may be more appropriate to slot me into MoreSTW first time out? I’m still trying to figure out how everything works – the bit that seems like I’ll get wrong is not going when it says GO, and thentrying to make sure I don’t lose all my sensors in the meantime!

Welcome @rj2dj! Yes that’s right, you entered correctly. You didn’t need to join the STW team on zwiftpower but it’s good for other reasons that you did. So do stay a member! Once teams are sorted for this week you’ll need to “tag” your zwiftpower name with the team label. I’ll post proper instructions for that with the team rosters.

The F and L thing: the categories on zwiftpower get modified after the event to represent the (coffee based) classes that teams are classified into in the TTT. That depends on the mix of category riders in each team – F is Frappe (max 3 As), L is latte (max 3Bs). We ride in both, depending on who is around each week and how they divide into teams. (Once the teams are chosen that’s all automatic).

Bear with me (everyone, not just @rj2dj) and I’ll get teams posted asap, sooner than usual…

Not that it matters an iota, but ZP has put me in my rightful place as a B cat again. A very brief, if unsuccessful foray into ‘A’ brought with it unimaginable pains.

Teams for tomorrow! Start delays are TBC, I will post as soon as I know them. Everyone in the start pen by 19:40.

Team STW

@phil56

@paino (welcome back to B!)

@dangeourbrain

@yanboss

@munkeymadness

@trolo1234

@scaredypants – change your tag

@rj2dj (trust me!) – you need an (STW) tag see below

Team MoreSTW

@w00dster

@karnali

@slowpuncheur

@robbo1234biking

@zilog6128

@drew

@haloric

@phil56 will herd STW.

@robbo1234biking has some strategic ideas for MoreSTW to try out.

This is @rj2dj’s first TTT. @phil56 will take care of you. General info:
– team tag. you need to tag your “Rider Name” in zwiftpower with your team name in brackets. so “Name (STW)”. Go here https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1645529 for the event, then settings top right and type the whole thing not just the tag into My Name. This lasts just one race.
– outfit. we usually wear the bumblebee jersey. ride a road bike (the draft is the whole point). choose mismatched socks just to wind up robbo.
– start process. you’ve seen this already, I see. On GO! you must NOT GO!. You must be at zero watts when the onscreen clock gets to zero, and stay at zero watts until the team’s allocated departure slot. This will be a few minutes later, I’ll confirm in a future post when they are released. when that time has elapsed, then you must GO GO GO. This will be counted down and coordinated over…
– comms. each team has a discord channel. join the server here: https://discord.gg/mQ6Xnepc the voice channels are over on the left. use TTT (Team Name).

That’s it. Good luck everyone. This is a familiar course. There are no really big climbs but there isn’t much flat either. And you probably don’t need reminding that there’s a long way still to ride if you shed riders on the Reverse KOM on the first two laps….

Watch this space for start delays. Feel free to use the time between now and then to brainstorm strategy.

Strategy ? I’m brainstorming rapid weight-loss techniques to keep up with those ^ fast buggers !

Good evening MoreSTW.

@zilog6128

@karnali

@w00dster

@slowpuncheur

@drew

@haloric

The plan for tomorrow evening is as follows:

We are going to try and take it in turns to take pulls on the front. For this we will take pulls at 300w. I appreciate mrhoppy saying that they aim for a speed but at the moment I think it is more about getting the technique right and as the course is fairly undulating I think a wattage target will be easier for people to stick to.

Based on your FTP from ZP I have devised the below pull order. At 300w 3 of us are only just over FTP so I have put us with 60s pulls and the other riders at 30s pulls. If you would like to do a longer or shorter pull let me know.

The order is as per the list below. This also shows a column which shows the percentage of FTP you will be doing for that pull to achieve 300w. Memorise who you are going after so when I call there name be ready for your pull coming up next. Try and stay as a paceline but if we blob up a bit dont worry. Also when it is your turn to do the pull if you dont get on the front straightaway dont worry. The other rider will be dropping back so dont sprint to get in front of them as you will just be burning matches.

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This table shows the approximate watts you should be doing when in the paceline.

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For the hills we will group on haloric and he will pace us up them. There are 3 points on the reverse KOM where we will need to do this. On the false flat sections of the KOM will try to get haloric a rest by blobbing up and sheltering him.

karnali and w00dster – can you cover the back of the group to cover anyone who might drop off. Call it early so we can slow the pace.

Thats it really! Any comments/questions/alternatives?

Cheers

Start delays:

STW 12 minutes, in the pen by 19:40 and off at 19:52

MoreSTW 5 mins, in the pen by 19:40 and off at 19:45

@robbo1234biking that all looks good in theory ,let’s see how it works out in practice, thanks for all the work that’s gone into this

@robbo1234biking speaking to a mate who races TTT regularly he says not to ease off much until on the back if pace line or you just get dropped, don’t know your thoughts on this

I dont think we will have a perfect pace line – it will be more of a lollipop so 2-3 riders on the front and then a bit of a blob at the back. Dropping to the back takes a bit of practice. You can sink and sprint like in this video:

https://zwiftinsider.com/ttt-secrets-matt-gardiner/

Or ease of more gently which means the transitions may take a bit longer. I guess see what works for you. We wont get it perfect tomorrow but hoping it is the first step to improving the whole technique.

Looks very good Robbo, looking forward to it.
Also, just to add, I won’t mind taking more efforts should other guys need a rest. Will leave you to do the calling on this. But I imagine 120 and 130% of ftp for 30 seconds might get very tough towards the end of the race.
How long is this race estimated to take?

Yeh I agree w00dster. Drew has the toughest role so if you are a bit under 300w don’t worry. I think 120% for 30 secs should be ok as you then get 2-3 mins rest in the pack.

Should be 43 to 45 mins I think.

If anyone needs to drop a rotation to rest up a bit more shout up and we can handle that.

I’ve just been for a recovery spin and found that keeping a steady 300w for 30 secs isn’t that easy (even on desert flats) so expect watts to fluctuate between 280-320w. 30 secs seems OK. The thing to watch is to increase speed gradually as the person pulling off the front doesn’t need to deal with an acceleration in the group when they are trying to hook on.

Thanks Robbo & wOOdster, if I’m struggling I’ll shout out. I can remember it being very tough last time and I didn’t last the distance but there should be longer rests this time round.

Yeh hopefully this time round drew we won’t burn you out. I think we lost a couple of riders on that ttt so ended up short and the turnover was quick. Hopefully more rest this time but if 280w is a more sensible target then go for it. It still gives other riders 30 seconds of additional rest.

Agree on wattage target Paul (T) it won’t be a perfect flat and will fluctuate a bit.

Is it worth suggesting that riders change the power settings in Zwift to 3sec smoothing to help people smooth their power delivery rather than over/under shoot their targets?

If you find yourselves short an A my normal squad did not get registered in time this week. Would be up for filling a gap is you have one (don’t though if it’ll bump up a coffee class).

Hi @nixie there is a space on MoreSTW but you might be better suited to STW. @savoyad might shuffle the teams slightly to suit?

Hi – all, I’ve signed up for this evening’s event.

Hi all

Might as well do this transparently – @nixie and @mbs effectively signed up simultaneously (in different ways) to be the 16th and 17th rider and there’s only 16 places – which is awkward but hardly world ending.

Before I toss a coin / choose a favourite / bribe you all over PM / make a rational choice or whatever if anyone is already unable to ride later can you speak up? DO NOT PULL OUT to make a space, that would be stupid.

I’m riding in zone 2 (10.20) so I’ll disappear for a bit and I’ll sort it later. @nixie it’s not unheard of for teams to email their way in after missing the deadline. Maybe too late for your usual setup to organise riders even if that works, I realise…

@savoyad I can make it easy. @mbs is a better fit for morestw and won’t push them up a coffee class. As I’m normally in another squad it would make more sense for the them to ride as it would be very rare for me to enter in a STW team. I will be zwifting one way or another tonight so if you do get a dropout let me know but otherwise I will get on with working on my power :D.

It was several squads that got missed sadly due to life getting in the way, email entry not on the cards this time.

For the hills we will group on haloric and he will pace us up them.

Finally someone writes the unwritten rule – bloats before goats !

At least this should ensure I’m in touch at the top, …if we reach the top.

@robbo1234biking couple of Qs as I wasn’t around for the first one… are you intending to call all the changes yourself or do you want us to keep an eye on the clock & do it ourselves? Are we aiming to get into 2nd position when we’re up next, and go from there? And you said “accelerate gradually”… should that be from when our pull starts, or should we already be up to speed at that point? Ta!!

For the hills we will group on haloric and he will pace us up them.

Finally someone writes the unwritten rule – bloats before goats !

At least this should ensure I’m in touch at the top, …if we reach the top.

Although slightly more difficult to execute can I suggest that haloric paces but in someones draft. That way you can use the slight draft advantage. Requires the rider providing the draft to really pay attention.

w00dster will call the changes. He will just say who is up and then you take your position at the front of the paceline. Remember who is in front of you so you know you are coming up. You should get 4-5 mins rest in the pack. If it all works well then I think it will be one pull each between the hill each time.

In terms of positioning you don’t have to be in 2nd position but definitely in the front 4.

The accelerate gradually reference was because when we did it last time people were sprinting to get to the front and then that burnt us out quicker. Just let the change happen gradually – if you are doing your 300w for 30 seconds then that is the aim. Just because your avatar isn’t at the front for all of those 30 seconds it doesn’t matter. Its a bit like overtakes – it is easy to get overexcited when 5 seconds behind and start sprinting to get past but you just burn yourself out early – wait for a second gap and you can cruise past when you accelerate.

Once the final team is confirmed I will post up the call order. I will switch it around a bit so all the 1 min pulls go first followed by the 30 second pulls so it doesn’t get to confusing.

Oh and for overtakes we will call them on the road but we will likely blob up a bit depending on how we are and where on the course it is. If we are just behind a team when we hit the crest of the KOM then we should back of a little, descend as a group and then accelerate coming off the hill. Passes downhill just gets messy and waiting 1 or 2 seconds will likely save time down the line with a clean pass rather than getting tangled up.