Zwift Team Time Trial, Thursday

Thanks for having me again More STW. I enjoy that route. A tough intro for Tom so thank him for us please @haloric. I lost comms on the second lap so apologies if I seemed to ignore any calls but thought we worked well as 7. It’s definitely worth waiting up and grouping for the flat on that course. We held our own against STW until the hills!

Thanks for the encouragement @Phil56

Not the course to be the one with the lowest w/kg! Got gapped when MoreSTW came back through at the bottom of that climb and just faded away in my attempts to get back on.

Thanks for towing me round team and apologies for being the pace limiter. See you all next week (for something nice and flat?)

49:06 and 200th for STW

Thought that went pretty well. Didn’t think you were a limiter at all @yanboss…I’ve no idea what happened when we overtook MoreSTW. Thought the pass was clean and we had a 2/3 second gap then totally got taken by surprise when they caught us at the start of the second climb. Must have been a perfect draft for them. Got totally caught out myself..actually thought I was near the front, then noticed Benman 4 secs up the road, to which I had to hammer to get back on….guessing you were in a similar situation. The road was getting well crowded by that point. Either way, thought our climbing as a team was spot on, we were really taking time out of other guys there.
Again, nicely managed Phil. Cheers all.

Something weird happened there. I was adrift from MoreSTW as you caught and passed, but as I pressed to get back on and turned on to the hill I ran through MoreSTW and into STW, it was like you had all stalled.

Didn’t take long for you to push back through but it was quite odd.

@yanboss, I was dying a thousand deaths out there, you certainly weren’t the limiting factor. My legs were completely empty. I felt great for 7 minutes but after that I just couldn’t turn the pedals.
On the last hill on the first lap I was up out of the saddle trying to keep up, my sweat dripped on my iPad and took me to view someone else, it then wouldn’t let me select back to me, thinking I was going to get dropped I just put in a big effort but after that I was completely spent.
I’m awake now with my legs absolutely burning (at 2am) been twitching away in my sleep and my legs feeling weird won’t let me drop back off. Tuesdays effort has really taken its toll on me. I don’t think my body can cope with two max effort rides so close together. When I raced in real life this was also true, I couldn’t race a crit on a Thursday and a road race on a Saturday. My last racing season I remember my FTP and my motivation taking a tumble as I was over trained (1 team chain gang plus two races a week, 2 recovery rides and 1 endurance ride, I wasn’t new to a workload like that as had been trained by a coach for years).
Thinking I’m probably only going to be able to ride with MoreSTW as that was just too much for me.

Thanks team stw and Savoyard for organising. Another good ride. The more stw overtake caught me out too. Went front front of stw to out the back of more stw and had to work like crazy to get back on down hill. That burnt all my matches and struggled to hold wheels on last km. but gave me a good workout. My average power was quite low so I clearly didn’t pull my weight….

Really sorry if we disturbed your race guys. We certainly weren’t pushing to get back into your draft. We had backed of the regroup after the climb but seemed to get some momentum.

If it was a flat course I don’t think you would have caught us but with the hills you rapidly caught us once it went uphill.

Despite the entanglement it might have made both teams quicker as we were working hard to maintain the gap on the back straight and you were likely pushing hard to make up the gap!

@savoyad might be something to bear in mind in the future depending on the course with that gap. The oire flat courses might be ok with that gap but on the hillier ones the faster team should prob go of first.

Sorry guys, I was influenced by the length of the delays into leaving the misfortune where WTRL had put it. I realised it would probably result in a pass, but not such a disruptive one! It sounds like things went well apart from that.

@trolo1234 what happened? I saw you titled an activity “workout after TTT fail” on the companion app…
The problem of passing each other (but not, alas, of passing other teams) will get less of a worry because the new entry system will allow an easy move to riding in different pens (latte in latte, frappe in frappe).

Everyone, or nearly everyone, feels like a limiter in the TTT. It’s the equivalent of everyone thinking they’re the one most on the limit in the Tues night races…probably means it’s going about right.

That course is a really good TTT test. Next up Watopia Hilly Reverse (followed by a couple of flatter weeks). I’ll get entries sorted and post the link.

The pass happened at probably the worst place with both teams on the limit and trying to regroup. Its just one of those things. Think we are just hyper aware of not disrupting each other.

Wow @w00dster, hope you managed to recover. Maybe I just need to push myself harder…

I thought the order was great, gave a good target. Just didn’t have the legs to make a second pass!

I notice that @w00dster isn’t even contemplating “taking it easier on Tuesdays” as a solution. I think that’s a plea to ride in MoreSTW that I’ll take notice of though! I really hope you are feeling OK today. That last hill is a nightmare. It sneaks up on you. It shouldn’t be there. And it never seems to end. I loved seeing @phil56 charge up it solo in the STW race before Christmas.

It was a strange on for me, I just couldn’t get off the pairing screen. Everything was connected and working but every time I pressed ‘Lets go’ it came up with a box searching for Bluetooth devices. Tried everything I could but wasn’t meant to be!

Looking forward to next week, thanks for organising savoyad!

That was a great effort from both teams last night, but bloody hard work!

@trolo1234 sorry you didn’t manage to start – did you figure out the problem?

@yanboss you definitely weren’t a limiter and @munkeymadness you definitely pulled your weight – great efforts from everyone and until the bad timing of the pass on More STW we we’re heading for another blanket finish, which is awesome.

@Haloric

something weird happened there

It was strange! – when you all came flying back past me it felt like when the Millennium Falcon hits hyperdrive! I was stationary while the world flew past me! Looking at this you can see how it happens –

Drafting

The draft on descents goes up to 30 -40%. We didn’t quite clear MoreSTW enough over the crest and without brakes there’s not much anyone can do about it, just one of those things.

@robbo1234biking

If it was a flat course I don’t think you would have caught us

I think you’re being optimistic there. The timing gap on the screen was a bit off in that it seemed to hold at a consistent gap and then drop in 10 – 15 sec chunks, but in reality I think we gained on you pretty consistently.

you were likely pushing hard to make up the gap!

We didn’t – in fact when you appeared on our timing screen I called for us not to get excited and to hold at a steady power and even when I saw you up things on the final straight we held steady – although I’m not sure we could have chased any harder even if I’d called it!

Definitely ‘type 2’ fun!

@woodster Your post got me thinking, partly because after last night I was completely flattened as well. Not quite to the extent of ‘twitchy leg’ syndrome, which I do get sometimes, but certainly more exhausted than I normally am after the TTT.

@savoyad This got me wandering if we do need to just level set on the plan for the STW team. It does seem that through some combination of doing the race series and the TTT every week, or getting used to the pain of the TTT, the STW team is getting to be very hard work.

Looking at last nights race our top 5 riders averaged 4.1, 3.8, 4.0, 4.1,3.9 and 3.9 W/KG over a 50 min effort. That’s serious effort, and means there’s really no respite even when sitting back in the group. It’s basically 4.2 – 4.5 W/Kg turns on the front and then holding over 3.5 W/KG in the group.

If we carry on like this I fear everyone is going to be jumping ship to join MoreSTW!!

I’m not sure what the answer is, but considering we always said this was about maintaining the fun factor for everyone, perhaps we do need to give this some thought?

Yes @phil56 I agree. The TTT can be an excellent training session, and enormous fun, but both benefits are wiped out if it’s wiping out the riders… It needs to be sustainable and something people enjoy doing. The numbers of riders involved now every week now mean we’re getting something right. But we can do it better.

This is one possible advantage of moving entries earlier in the week: each team then have a window where they know their teammates, they can make a plan (which needn’t be excessively structured unless people want that), declare their preferences etc – so it can be tweaked from week to week, but also you know what’s coming better when you get to the start line. I keep saying this is imminent because it’ll be forced on us, but maybe it’s time to do it ourselves: I could just set a weekly deadline for entries, divvy them into two lineups in advance and then give you time to prepare as teams? Happy to try that starting now.

I’m also open to hearing everyone else’s suggestions as to how to make it more sustainable.

I think you’re being optimistic there. The timing gap on the screen was a bit off in that it seemed to hold at a consistent gap and then drop in 10 – 15 sec chunks, but in reality I think we gained on you pretty consistently.

Sounds like a challenge lol 3 min headstart on a flat course! I meant when we ride on the flatter courses the difference between the teams tends to be less than 3 mins. You would still catch us but I think we would just about hold on.

For Tick Tock last week it was just over a minute between the teams whereas last time we rode Richmond it was 3 mins. I cant get a result for last night as a load of data has gone missing apparently so MoreSTW aren’t even on the results board!

For me it is my favourite event of the week (more than the race series) but that might be because when I finish I can get a shower, something to eat and sit and chill whereas after the race series I have some admin stuff to do.

When I ride for MoreSTW it is a very different experience to STW. Trying to manage the team on the road is a big challenge and I quite often make mistakes. My output tends to be lower but mentally it is more taxing looking at gaps, making calls etc. For STW it is right on my limit but I have to work a lot harder but don’t have to worry about the on-road stuff as Phil takes care of that.

@robbo1234biking

I cant get a result for last night as a load of data has gone missing

That’s strange as it’s all on Zwiftpower – in fact it was looking at the results on there that prompted my note above. The first five riders for MoreSTW had power averages of 3.5,2.9,3.1,3.1 and 2.9 W/KG – which seem like much more sustainable effort levels for most of the group.

Interesting comments all round.
Although the effort is similar, psychologically Tuesday nights and Thursday nights couldn’t be more different. I’ll be honest, I don’t look forward to Tuesday nights, even though the race series is ace. It’s even harder when there’s actually something to challenge for. Also, there’s the disappointment when I don’t do well, or I think I’ve done ok but don’t get any points. This pretty much sums up why I go for the sprint points! Quite frankly it’s anxiety inducing….one of those “well it was fun afterwards” type things.
Thursday on the other hand is more fun. There’s no pressure, we’re not going to challenge the top Latte/Frappe boys. I was well chuffed finishing 200th! The team side of things totally makes it. There’s no requirement to do huge turns on the front. Yes, we’re getting faster, but there’s no shame in hiding in the pack and saving energy. No issues in starting behind MoreSTW, gives the chasing team something to aim for.

Kind of touched on it in the race thread, but I too have fallen into the trap of too much too often. This week I stuck to the plan of balls out then falling back on Tuesday, and felt ok last night. The effort from the front riders on Tuesday was huge, not surprised you guys felt it last night!

Paino, strangely I feel more pressure on a Thursday, it’s not wanting to let other folks down.
Due to lockdown I’ve been able to organise my week so I’m fairly rested for a Tuesday race, if I’ve done a hard Sunday group ride I know Tuesday will be tough but sustainable. Last weekend I didn’t ride at all so was really fresh and well rested come Tuesday. Because Kirky and DrP are faster than me but close in races, I work my backside off keeping in touch, if they were a bit slower I wouldn’t have the motivation to work so hard.
I also love the Thursday TTT, just last night made me realise it’s too much for me to be riding above FTP three times a week. I’ll still take part but I can’t ride at the same intensity. I can normally keep to 3.8 w/kg reasonably comfy for 40 mins (about 260 watts) but last night I couldn’t maintain 240 watts without getting in and out of the saddle, was very strange…but on the hills stood climbing at 320 watts felt ok.
Legs are tired today, I’ll get the foam roller out later, supposed to do a Z2 recovery ride but don’t think I can manage that!

Looking at last nights race our top 5 riders averaged 4.1, 3.8, 4.0, 4.1,3.9 and 3.9 W/KG over a 50 min effort. That’s serious effort, and means there’s really no respite even when sitting back in the group. It’s basically 4.2 – 4.5 W/Kg turns on the front and then holding over 3.5 W/KG in the group.

I see from the posts that you are still generally using a blob technique. This inhibits the recovery if you have a big team and means that for the same speed you’re putting out more watts. Or out the other way, Jupiter that I ride with have gone about 1.5-2 mins faster over the last few races for the same power outputs by structuring how were riding and forming pacelines where possible.

Paino, strangely I feel more pressure on a Thursday, it’s not wanting to let other folks down.

me too, I always try harder on Thursday! It’s nice obviously to do well at the individual race on Tuesday, but there’s really no pressure, even if you just turn up & cruise you can still enjoy taking part & the numbers help the series overall! 😀

I see from the posts that you are still generally using a blob technique. This inhibits the recovery if you have a big team and means that for the same speed you’re putting out more watts.

yeah, I did notice last night that there were usually a couple of riders in the pack putting out similar numbers to the leader which is wasted effort! It’s been pointed out a few times, not recently though, so not sure everyone is aware of the sticky-draft “range” and how it works? We did try a more organised ride once (I say we, I couldn’t actually make it that week!) but I think it requires a degree of organisation that we’re not quite ready for yet!

WTRL website is only showing STW and no split times at the moment so might be a data issue there end.

I am pretty lucky I think in that even if I ride on STW and turn myself inside out I am still able to do a Vo2 max workout on Friday morning. We were discussing this on this mornings workout session. I am still relatively young though so that might help. I couldn’t do a SS or threshold workout though – in reality Vo2 max workout is only 20 mins of work so similar to a crit effort but with lots of breaks and it is prob only the last 30 seconds that give the adaptations (and hurt!).

I only do a very gentle spin on a Wednesday though which is my recovery day. I have ridden every day since 1st Jan but do gentle sessions and recovery. I have some erg mode workouts called easy recovery and very easy recovery just for this. I can get on the bike and listen to a podcast for 30-60mins which gives me the break from home schooling/work etc (and generally always being in the house) but without racing people and doing more than I should as it is controlled via erg so I cant overdo it!

We did try a more organised ride once (I say we, I couldn’t actually make it that week!) but I think it requires a degree of organisation that we’re not quite ready for yet!

I think the concept worked but we didn’t set targets and length of pulls dependent on individuals abilities and strength so we ended burning people out quicker.

It does need coordination and discipline to drop to the back and recover whilst feeling you aren’t doing anything. But it does seem to be really efficient, because you are recovering from P8-P4 then slowly ramping up effort on to the front it means you can give it the beans on the front. Doing that you need to maintain a regular turnover on the front as the guy in 2nd wheel is going to be pulling hard though and you don’t want to burn them out.

Depressingly I now have a spreadsheet to work out pull durations and orders to minimise individual loading to try to ensure we balance the work. It’s not perfect but it has seen us go from P90 ish to P40-50 ish in Latte.

Edit: Ignore!

i have really enjoyed the 2 ttt i have done, for me the first one for STW was a tough workout, it takes me a while to get going. Last night for morestw equated to about 15-20 bpm lower on the heart rate and being able to spend some time on the front and being a lighter ride i got some recovery after the hills. I can see how a team would go faster in a paceline as when i was on the front someone would come past onto the front pretty quickly and similalry i would end up on the front accidently. I tried to get to the front for the uphill sections on the 2nd lap where i could. I think it would take a fair bit of practice to get a good paceline going, i’d be all over the place, or would it be easier once everyone was used to it?

Entries are in for this week. 3x Watopia Hilly Reverse, Thurs, 7.40pm

Enter category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1645529

If I can get an idea of who is riding soon enough, I’ll try to post teams earlier this week to create a window for teams to talk tactics…So sign up ASAP if you can please.

@mrhoppy once you are armed with your spreadsheet, how do you decide the intensity which riders (aim to) go at on the front?

I am signed up cheers.

When we tried it before xmas it didn’t work because we didn’t say what pull and we all did the same length. I think the stronger riders can pull a bit longer but we likely need to pull out individual power targets to stop burning people out. Should be a power target as well not a w/kg target (unless on climbs when we should see what people can sustain).

As this is a 3 x lap course after the hill where we will go at the pace of the slowest there should be an opportunity for them to miss a couple of pulls and shelter in the pack perhaps?

It’s based on a target speed for the flat (because I haven’t worked out how to get the more complicated version one working fully yet). That is taken from the ZI speed to weight/wkg curves and matched against each riders stats. It uses the draft increase to work out required output at each position and the pull duration (varied by individual) to work out the overall stress. Then I fiddle about with running orders and the like to get the best blend.

It’s much easier to get that in place when I have a fairly fixed team of 9 and I usually know by Friday who is riding the next week. Target speed is easier for people to follow than output we have found (but it also is useful for working out the individual watts on the front), I will say we have ended up with splits but this is more about complications in managing passes. I’m considering winding down the intensity slightly to allow a little more leeway.

When we tried it before xmas it didn’t work because we didn’t say what pull and we all did the same length.

maybe (for MoreSTW) 4w/kg would be good to aim for? I normally end up doing more than that, a) cos I get carried away, but b) because there’s normally a couple of people sitting in the group doing almost that anyway, so I have to dig a lot deeper to actually move past them to the front!! But then get knackered out after doing that twice so have to lurk at the back for the rest of the race 🤣

Was it 30s pulls before? Probably a minute would be ok, maybe down to 30s in the second half when getting fatigued?

We need to avoid w/kg on the flat. I think your FTP is about 255 zilog mine is about 290 but you weigh a lost less so to hit 4 w/kg on the flat you might need to put out 280w and I need to put out 350w (im a big lump lol) which is a much bigger load for me than you.

We would be better setting a target of 105% FTP for X seconds depending on what people are comfortable with on the flat for example:

290w @ 105% = 305w for me
255w @ 105% = 267w for you

Once we have the wattage target the individual team members could state their preference between 30s and 60s for the length of pull depending on how comfortable you are.

it sounds complicated but it isn’t in reality – once the team is set those targets are easy to determine. If someone is only comfortable with 30s pulls at first then that is fine. We aren’t aiming to achieve perfection in one week just look at how we could potentially improve.

I know when we did 30 seconds I felt like I only just got to the front did 10 secs of work and then dropped of so I think I would be more comfortable with 60s pulls. I could be the limiting factor on the hills though (there are 2 per lap really as the KOM reverse is really two hills with a plateau between) so once we know the team I might need to go down to 45s to prevent burn out when I need to really push on the hills.

Also 30 seconds sounds good but you have a much shorter time between rests! This mattered as we lost riders as went from say 3mins between pulls to 1min30secs.

Ive entered for thursday, i’ll try and get a look at the course before then.

We need to avoid w/kg on the flat. I think your FTP is about 255 zilog mine is about 290 but you weigh a lost less so to hit 4 w/kg on the flat you might need to put out 280w and I need to put out 350w (im a big lump lol) which is a much bigger load for me than you.

fair enough, I was kind of basing that on observation as I’ve noticed people at the front of our group tend to naturally be putting out 3.5-4 w/kg. Agree it makes sense for people to go at a power they feel comfortable with though & can repeat for the duration of the event!

Smooth/steady speed is key, to get that it’s not a fixed W or Wkg, as with different weights you get different requirements for each. But you need the person in the front to be pulling what is needed not what they are comfortable with for it to work, the duration is what you need to be flexing. But you are going for sprint, sink & recover approach so I have an output requirement of 360-390W (around 135% FTP) on the front and depending on the course I’ll flex the duration between 30 and 45s, for our cat Bs they are around 130% because despite being more powerful they are also lighter, but they tend to hold longer durations so typically 1 min. They could go longer but that tends to deplete 2nd wheel too much. Better to hold the energy for later on when less powerful riders might start to have to drop a pull.

Yeh lets see who signs up, what people are capable off and try and balance it out. Still want to make sure that it is fun for people but I find a bit of tactical discussion fun (I could be am weird!)

But you need the person in the front to be pulling what is needed not what they are comfortable with for it to work, the duration is what you need to be flexing.

interesting, yeah makes sense 👍 reduces it to only one variable too which probably helps with organisation!

Blimey – the stuff I miss when at work !

Hopefully I’m in this week – Tuesday too.

FWIW I reckon I can do repeated spells of maybe 320w for at least 30 sec as long as I get decent rest between them

… and climb for maybe 30s-1 minute at 4.5 or 3 minutes at 4w/kg (5min would prob kill me for the rest of the ride), which also is about 320w, as it happens. Longer climbs, I’d be under 3.5

Dunno if the pros carry on taking pulls up the climb but I think we’d just blob up at the pace of the slowest rider & try to stay together as usual! Although I suppose if it’s a shallow climb might make sense for a lighter rider(s) to take the front to provide some draft for the others?