[Closed] Yet Another Religion Thread

I'd heard of the Ben Affleck incident but hadn't watched the video until now. He nicely demonstrates exactly what Sam Harris and Bill Maher were talking about - any discussion on the darker aspects of Islam ends in accusations Ismalmophobia, and he seems unable to see this.

Saw the Ben Affleck incident. He is a self righteous arse. Sam Harris on the other hand as always is like a warm shower of reason.

“there are some beliefs so terrible that we are justified in killing people just for holding them”

There are some beliefs so terrible that they are justified in killing people just for [b]not[/b] holding them.

And therein lies the problem with Islam.

OP, there are pages of comments on the article so I couldn't find the response you refer to, perhaps post it here ?

I think people like to play the "racist card" on discussions around religon as they feel it's a knockout blow, if you can tag someone as racist you instantly win and/or discredit their argument. For example opposition to what's happening in the Middle East isn't Islamophobic IMO as that's a conflict between different sects of that same religion. I think where we do have a problem is where people make a link between, say, ISIS -> Muslims -> Ethnic origin and thus see that ethnic group as a threat, not everyone does that but many do.

I certainly don't agree with those presenters on the Aflek piece who spread the view that Islam is the fundamental problem. What is true however is that is a view held by many, particularly in the US. It does seem to me that Islam is more easily corrupted by extremist preachers who are able to radicalise young people really quite quickly to do terrible things. It is undoubtedly a factor in many of these acts that martyring yourself whilst killing others results is the prize of a special place in heaven complete with numerous virgins for your pleasure.

I can't be arsed reading or watching it/anything.

But all religion is bollox. And you can quote me on that.

Andrew Brown is basically in way above his head. When he writes about things like church hierarchy or stuff like that it is interesting. Over the past few years, however, he seems to be doing a daily mail-like witch hunt against the likes of Sam Harris.

He *really* hates Dawkins though, he usually tries to stick the knife in whenever he possibly can.

Fortunately for his blogs entries, however, there is much more intelligence from the commenters than the article, which is as rare as hen's teeth!

But all religion is bollox. And you can quote me on that.

What is true however is that is a view held by many, particularly in the US

Come on Jambers you can do better than that.

Did you not read the blog by the ****stani Muslim Lady living in ****stan ?

http://www.****stantoday.com.pk/2014/10/25/comment/an-open-letter-to-ben-affleck/

 

Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things. For good people to do bad things, you need religion.

or that Islam promotes these things. But if you are a person looking to justify such acts, you may find what you are looking for within the texts.

Interesting juxtaposition, there.

And - yes to the second and third points made by loddrik, obviously. Well, it IS me... 8)

I'm struggling with the Guardian article - I don't think many people do "hate Islam", they hate the extreme fundamentalist views held by a minority. Or have I missed something fundamental in the argument?

looddriks post sums up the forthcoming pages of titfortat arguing nicely

If religion is based on "beliefs" rather than ethnic background, gender, skin type or place of geographic origin, then it is difficult to be "racist" if opposing a position argued based around religious belief ..

*I have skim read the threads, yet to see the whole articles.

Some racists criticise Islam. Not everyone who criticises Islam is racist.

@cheekyboy - yes I read it, the OP linked to it

@vickypea - I do think there are quite a lot of people who don't differentiate the extremists from the broader religion

Just getting in early before the Captain.

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Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things. For good people to do bad things, you need religion.

For bad people to change their ways and dedicate the rest of their lives to doing good - you need religion too. Usually.

I'd reject the idea that Islam is the only religion that has violent extremists; I think most of them do/have.

I think the other thing is perception.
we [ westerners] see a women in a burkha and we think oppressed

They [muslims] see Jordan with her tits out and see an oppressed woman

I think we both have a point tbh

Its not as simple as some folk make out and many many anti muslims are racist - see the EDL for example

If religion is based on "beliefs" rather than ethnic background, gender, skin type or place of geographic origin, then it is difficult to be "racist" if opposing a position argued based around religious belief

people who are actually qualified to pass comment rather than a bunch of caucasian keyboard warriors.

Hmm.. perhaps pertinent to the topic, there are plenty of white muslims (and I don't mean converts). But how many white muslims are involving themselves in the fighting?

Note this is a real question, I'm not trying to prove a racist point.. but perhaps this looks pretty bad nevertheless. Rather than being anything to do with race perhaps it's a regional/national/cultural issue? After if you are Arab then you are likely to be Muslim, and from the Middle East where the Palestine problem is very close to you.

Imagine no religion - the world could be a better place

Religion < > Politics

Same shit < > Different Colour

This is good reading and contains many of the Polls Sam Harris alluded to in his disagreement with Ben Affleck.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Sam Harris is exactly right though even in the most "progessive" islamic societies views are [i]widely[/i] held that are completely abhorrent to many if not most UK citizens.

Crying islamaphobia is just not going to cut it any more, many of Islam's core ideas are scary and that's that.

I wonder what happened to the Greek Gods? too many gods for everyone who fancy gods , guess that would sort out the problems.

[s]Sam Harris is[/s]islamic clerics and leaders are exactly right though even in the most "progessive" [s]islamic[/s] western societies views are widely held that are completely abhorrent to many if not most [s]UK[/s] muslim citizens..

Works both ways though- this is is an important point and the real problem comes because , some, on each side know they are right and will fight to impose it.

I'm a Welsh God, if that counts.

Pics to prove it 😉

This is me when needing a cwtch.

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Junkyard that's a fair point however I don't want to live under an islamic idealogy, I think our society is better.

The view expressed in the Guardian article seems to ignore the fact that many countries that are viewed as "Islamic" or "Muslim" actually have a sizeable proportion of Christians - including Orthodox Christians in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. Some Palestinians are Christian.

vickeypea the Middle East was pretty diverse from a religious perspective, it's just that it has become less so. Yes, the Guardian and many commentators ignore this historical diversity.

JY I think Jordan made her own mind up about whether to have the surgery and she can chose to undo it and/or stop the modelling. The wife or daughter of a religious family has no such freedom of choice. The Burka is banned in France, I don't agree with this but that's the law there now.

True but some, though not all, religions are seen as races - Jews and Sikhs only IIRC. The argument is you can tell by looking at them so they are a race.

It's tricky: all religions are guilty of hypocrisy, excessive zeal is always dangerous:

Look at the global genocide carried out in the name of Christianity

Or the current situation with Zionists using the Jewish faith as justification for their actions in Palestine.

That said, of course there is bad Muslims, who oppress and kill, but is that any surprise given the continuous intervention and exploitation carried out by west.

Reckon if we had invaders (or worse still, cowards with drones) fighting our troops and killing civilians, we'd get increasingly hostile.

In some respects there may be parallels to Native Americans, who though initially peaceful, due to massacre and exploitation, grew increasingly hostile.

There is many positive Muslim role models, like Mohammed Ali, Chuck D and Shaquille O’Neal, but it's rare to hear their faith mentioned.

Many of extremist groups branch from the Wahhabi movement, linked to UK & US allies Qatar and Saudi Arabia, who due to the oil and weapons trades are not cast under media scrutiny.

(Conspiracy ALERT) Everything I've said up there is fairly normal and easy to grasp, so don't let the following snippet cloud your judgement (Conspiracy ALERT)

Though I'm not convinced, some claim that the Saudi Royal Family links back to the crusades and is actually a part of the Masonic Order, as the Knights Templar forms the basis of Freemasonry.

This would tie in with Albert Pike's 3rd World War, but as I say, I'm not convinced, just added it in as it seems to be what you've come to expect from me

however I don't want to live under an islamic idealogy, I think our society is better.

@ vicky pea we have sizeable other religious communities here shall we stop being christian society? By sizeable you seem to mean 10% , 4 % , 4 %for three of your Four. Is not convinced but thanks for shoehorning it in. Perhaps you mean we should stop calling the UK christian?

The wife or daughter of a religious family has no such freedom of choice.

JY Your live and let live ethos is laudable however it would appear from the best estimates and studies that it is not shared by many of islam's followers.
I have no desire to live in an islamic state and so I do not, I'm happy with a secular state. I think it is fair to say that many muslims who live in non-islamic states find it tough to reconcile their values with the societal norms they are confronted with, like as you said, Jordan with her tits out.

As islam finds it's voice and it's followers grow in number in these societies it is likely that tolerance on both sides will become more strained we have seen it many times over in history. My fear shared by many others is that at it's core islam is incompatable with the values we hold and the evidence suggests that this fear is not ill founded.

JY as an aside as I understand it not all Jewish males are circumcised. In particular after the holocaust increasing numbers where not as the Germans used circumcision as a way of identifying Jews to send them to the camps, this impacted social behaviour. For other's its a family decision not to. There many other families who believe in circumcision where it's not a religious decision

Who said all Muslims wear the same clothes ? As usual you are just making stuff up so that you can cut/paste your standard responses. From my experience it's in very few Middle East countries that all women are covered, Saudi is pretty much the only one I can recall from my own travels, not Kuwait which is the next most strictly religious that I have visited. As an aside I have witnessed the religious police dragging a women out of a restaurant for dining with a non-family member.

Lots of sense on this thread.

“there are some beliefs so terrible that we are justified in killing people just for holding them”
There are some beliefs so terrible that they are justified in killing people just for not holding them.
And therein lies the problem with Islam.

Unfortunately, not just the preserve of Islam or people with any specific religious belief... Sometimes I have very little hope for the human race.

OP, there are pages of comments on the article so I couldn't find the response you refer to, perhaps post it here ?

When I linked, it'd defaulted the comments to 'editors picks' and there was only one comment visible.

Permalink to the reply is:
http://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/43243086

Junkyard - either you completely missed my point, or I failed to state it correctly! And you seem to think that because I'm a Christian that I have some kind of Christianity-promoting agenda which I think is unfair.

The article in the Guardian equates not liking Islam with being racist. Since many Arab nations are seen as Muslim, it follows that the article was trying to say that if you're anti-Islam you're being racist against Arabs. I was making a simple point that Christians form a sizeable minority among Arabs, which to me weakens the author's argument. I can't recall the exact %s, but as an example, I think about 40% of the population in Lebanon considered themselves Christian in a fairly recent survey.

I don't consider the UK to be a Christian society, nor do I want it to be. I'm happy to live in a multi-cultural, multi-faith society. I respect other people's religions and atheists too. (Please stop making this personal just because I'm Christian and you're atheist. I'm sure we'd get on fine if we went on an MTB ride together.)

To me, the writer of that article is attempting to shut down criticism of religion by comparing it with racism.

Religions, nations, and even races are all shared imaginative constructs (although nations and races have other characteristics as well) and if you really want to extirpate them, you must extirpate the people who imagine them as well."

Yes....*sarcasm on* DEATH TO THE ANTHROPOLOGISTS!

Anyone else noticed that he writes for the Church Times, I wonder how happy they will be that he labelled religion as an imaginative construct.

😆

If race and religion is all imaginary, it doesn't really matter at all whether people hate religion or not does it. Racism targets tangible physical difference between people that are entirely baseless. Where as religion, as the author points out, is entirely ****ing made up and can be criticized for perfectly legitimate reasons. I have yet to hear of any racial criticism that is grounded in anything other than prejudice.

He might be right about Stalin and Mao but as Hoffer points out, mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a God, but never without belief in a devil. Communism was never about god, but it was the very opposite of irreligious.

I'll get my coat.

JY Your live and let live ethos is laudable however it would appear from the best estimates and studies that it is not shared by many of islam's followers.

My fear shared by many others is that at it's core islam is incompatable with the values we hold and the evidence suggests that this fear is not ill founded.

Who said all Muslims wear the same clothes ?

The wife or daughter of a religious family has no such freedom of choice.

@ vickypea _ i took that the worng way thanks for the clarification and sorry.

how many white muslims are involving themselves in the fighting?

I beleive most of the Chechen and Bosnian muslims would appear caucasian, and as i understand it many have lent there services to the Taliban in Afghanistan and probably else wear.

Also your suggestion that it is not share dby "many" when it is clear it is a tiny percentage of muslims - how many form 1 billion followers? Its BS to suggest it is "many"

There are actually closer to 1.6 billion muslims so the numbers are not that small.

The latest and widely accepted studies show that at least 15% of global followers of islam hold radical views and that a further 15-25% are strongly islamist. You should read that Pew report or the Gallup polls before you make accusations of BS. Conservative estimates show there are between 150-250 million radical followers of islam.

It's reassuring to think 99% of muslims are progressive it's also very, very wrong.

I can find Pew but not an article Link please? genuine as interested.

I suppsoe much will depend on the definition of radical and strongly

Pew - who i had never heard of , thanks interesting research- has that 20% if americans post online about religion and listen to religious radio or tv. Is that radical or strongly? I dont know tbh

I don't think many people do "hate Islam", they hate the extreme fundamentalist views held by a minority.

I can't be arsed reading or watching it/anything.

But all religion is bollox. And you can quote me on that.

+1, the world would be a much nicer place without the men with beards who wear dresses and live in the sky, or rather, without the nutter element that the bearded dress wearing sky dwelling men attract.

Is freemasonry a religion?

This is the link> http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

I think they have been pretty careful about what defines radical so as to not encourage cries of Islamaphobia, it's interesting to see that for example in South Asia 84% want shira to be the law of the land. Of that 84%, 81% believe in severe coporal punishment for criminals (lashing, amputation etc)and 76% favour execution of apostates. Those are big and pretty scary numbers. Even in places like Turkey the numbers are north of 10%. Continually saying its a tiny minority is completely wrong.

Not seeing any question on fundamental or strongly muslim
Most muslims want to live as muslims. is that really a surprise? Most liberal westerners want to live like that. Again not surprising.
Most westerners want to live as secularist liberals

To be clear some of the attitudes expressed did surprise but i dont think it quite supports your claim
For example its no real surprise a muslim is happy to live under Sharia law as they already do pretty much,. It is not surprising they think we should all live under Sharia law either. I suspect we are meant to think this is fundamentalism. However I would imagine 90% + of westerners think all should live under "our" law even the religious. I suspect we dont call that radical or fundamentalist though.
Its way to detailed to be discussed on STW unless you wish to it point by point but i suspect everyone would lose the will to live.
Cheers though Interesting reading

its no real surprise a muslim is happy to live under Sharia law as they already do pretty much,. It is not surprising they think we should all live under Sharia law either. I suspect we are meant to think this is fundamentalism. However I would imagine 90% + of westerners think all should live under "our" law even the religious. I suspect we don't call that radical or fundamentalist though.

I agree with this..... mostly.

The question is about what people then do about it? Yes you can believe it, but what does that belief drive you to DO?

In the UK - I can come on a cycling forum and say: "your god's made up - a complete fairytale", expecting a good flaming..... but nobody is going to come around to my house and stone me and my family to death (hopefully).

Unless the middle east is separated into 100+ tiny, single-religion states - and the entire population of the region re-settled according to their beliefs, people are going top have to accept that the laws of the land need to account for differing beliefs.... ie: an effective separation of church and state.

Depressingly - this concept is so foreign in some parts of the world that it's almost unthinkable, at the point that mobs are stoning people to death in the streets for suspected blasphemy - how are you ever going to move them to a position whereby multiculturalism is accepted? Do we give them the hundreds of years (or however long) it took the UK? What atrocities are going to happen in that time, and will our consciences allow us to watch it unfolding on TV and not do anything about it?

I'm absolutely not advocating a "keep out of it and let them kill each other/sort it our for themselves" approach..... but I just can't think of any intervention that isn't just going to propagate the violence.

Mass-Hypnosis - that might work.

Muslim nations in history have been some of the most tolerant, advanced, and cosmopolitan societies - indeed far more so than other religious societies.

teamhurtmore, can you clarify time periods and specific societies you are referring to?

Baghdad under the last Caliphate - yes, the irony is obvious.

I thought you might be referring to Baghdad. It is indeed true that during the Islamic golden age (early 9th century), Baghdad was a centre of culture and civility virtually unparalleled anywhere else at the time, but I would just take issue with your comparison to 'other religious societies'.

After all, there have been moments of great flourishing and moments of great corruption across every civilisation and religious culture.

but nobody is going to come around to my house and stone me and my family to death (hopefully).

Didn't it also used to be said that "Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition"?

 

Yeah sorry.... that entire post was a bit pythonesque

"your god's made up - a complete fairytale"

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'morning, everybody.

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To me, the writer of that article is attempting to shut down criticism of religion by comparing it with racism.

JY you've confused yourself. Not all Muslims where the same clothes, I never said that. But in certain socieities/countries (like Saudi) the Burka is required for Muslim women.

Jam you have two principles - blaming me and the palestians 🙄

RE: that pew link and the figures there about wanting to live under Sharia Law and supporting corporal punishment etc.

If you were being polled about that kind of thing, in that society, isn't it possible that you would say you agree even if you didn't?

I'm not saying that they're all lying, far from it, but you have to wonder how much of that is 'giving the answer expected of you' responses, especially if you think everyone else around you supports it. Could be a tiny number, could be loads, very difficult to find out I would think...

Although this is a very telling snippet that we seem to have glossed over:

"Overwhelming percentages of Muslims in many countries want Islamic law (sharia) to be the official law of the land, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center. [b]But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population[/b]"

Moreover, Muslims are not equally comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support the application of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases. The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptabl

Also hints at a lot of variation, so simply saying 'Most Muslims support Sharia and corporal punishment' is pretty misleading

Sounds more tolerant when you put it that way, although then I guess it brings up the question of defining the Muslim population.

I do find a bizarre conflict in the figures in South Asia for supporting Sharia only for Muslims, versus the figures for punishment for leaving Islam.

What if you decide to renounce your faith, do you get punished according to Shariah Law, or let off the hook as you're no longer part of the Muslim population - colour me confused.

@Junkyard - just saw your post. Glad you were ok with my clarification 🙂

No probs Vpea
I think you would get similar response here

Should the law apply above religious views/laws

We would get high support here but we would not say we were westerner radicals or extremists for saying this.
Its complicated.
as for the post above about how we are free to choose and we dont force them to live like us - we do to some degree. See France banning the Burkha - is this really any different from making everyone live under Sharia law as we make Muslism live under our law, Woudl this be called extremism?

Both sides do the same things basically, Which side you view as extreme depends on which side of the divide you sit.
It is as much about perception as reality

Although this is a very telling snippet that we seem to have glossed over:

"Overwhelming percentages of Muslims in many countries want Islamic law (sharia) to be the official law of the land, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center. [b]But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population[/b]"

I don't see how it can be the law of the land but only apply to some.

Which raises even more questions:

So are the non-muslims allowed to break sharia laws without penalty?
What system would cover a dispute between a muslim and a non-muslim?