[Closed] Working hours advice

What's in your contract of employment?

Your employer is in beach of the law. Join a union. Working time directive states you must have 11 hrs of between shifts - no exceptions IIRC.

It is also totally pointless working those long hours anyway - after 10 hrs productivity drops so low as to make it pointless.( clearly seen in research)

Tell your employer where to go. That is totally unreaasonable unless it is a real crisis.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029451

Contract has nothing to do with it really, you have the right to 11 hours between shifts unless you've opted out.

[i]Daily rest - a break between working days

If you are an adult worker you have the right to a break of at least 11 hours between working days. This means as an adult worker, if you finish work at 8.00 pm on Monday you should not start work until 7.00 am on Tuesday.[/i]

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029451
/p>

Damn too slow.

Health and saftey policy needs looking at if your allowed to drive 4 hrs after working for 16 odd hours!!

You cannot opt out of the 11 hrs off between shifts IIRC. The only opt out is of the 48 hr max week

most employers who are likely to need it will 'ask' you 'politely' to opt out. all 'voluntary' of course 🙄

there is no opt out, you must have 11 hours off between shifts/working day.

[i]You cannot opt out of the 11 hrs off between shifts IIRC. The only opt out is of the 48 hr max week [/i]

You can claim it as over time if you wish and the employer agrees it the impression I had.

I don't think so drac. I am fairly sure it is an absolute

You may well be right if it's the case then I know many who are breaking it.

it's a virtually un-enforceable law without the threat of union input/industrial action.

The law is extremely wishy washy and any good lawyer can get round it in court, there are exceptions for all sorts of things. You are however entitled to take compensatory rest at a later date.

basically your 'right' is to 11 hours off unless your company really needs you not to. bit of a joke really.

You can claim it as over time if you wish and the employer agrees it the impression I had.

That's a bit worrying you knowing that Drac- that doesn't happen in the paramedic world does it (disasters excepted)?

From the same site.

[i]Do you have to take your breaks?

It is recommended that you take your rest breaks. They are there to protect your health and safety and you are entitled to them.[/i]

So according to that no you don't have to take them.

[i]That's a bit worrying you knowing that Drac- that doesn't happen in the paramedic world does it (disasters excepted)? [/i]

What disasters are you on about?

The other aspect is you have gone into night working which raises a whole 'nother set of issues - including you should be health assessed and so on.

it is possible your employer could have an exemption - but these are rarer than people think - if so you rare entitled to the compensatory rest another day.

You are being abused. Don't let them do it

jobs requiring constant staffing are exempt from the rules, ie any front line medical staff.

if you are driving a company vehicle then your fleet insurance will take a dim view of the companies H&S policy if you are driving under such conditions.

I work extremely long hours all the time but i'm self employed, maybe i could take myself to court and retire on the proceeds 🙂

sadly, as right as TJ is, the employment climate in this country allows employers to get away with all sorts like this. The recession has only made it worse

My G/F woeks for Game. She was in yesterday at 7am til 4pm, then went back at 11pm til 2am for the COD/MW2 launch.
She was then aiming to be back at work for 8am this morning and wondered why i went off the deep end at her!

After 3hrs sleep she would be driving a lethal weapon through rush hour traffic on the M60, one of the busiest M-ways in Britain.
She didn't listen of course, she is in thrall to the 'company' and lets them walk all over her. She kept bleating about the 'needs of the business' and wouldn't listen when i tried to tell her about her own bloody needs - i.e. rest and sleep! 👿

OP - union up.

the employment climate in this country

grrr - why is everything a climate these days. It is 'labour market' .../pedant

Muddy - that is a clear beech of the law. Almost certainly voids her car insurance as well and puts her at risk of prosecution for driving in that state.

wouldn't listen when i tried to tell her about her own bloody needs - i.e. rest and sleep

welcome to britain, ask a Frenchman about the same thing, you';ll get a very different answer (well unless they work for Orange, where there is a problem with staff committing suicide after they tried to copy british working practices in french offices)

Drac - Member

From the same site.

Do you have to take your breaks?

It is recommended that you take your rest breaks. They are there to protect your health and safety and you are entitled to them.

So according to that no you don't have to take them.

except

Types of breaks

You will normally have a variety of different breaks from work. These can be broken down into three types:
[list]
[*] 'rest breaks' - lunch breaks, tea breaks and other short breaks during the day
[*] 'daily rest' - the break between finishing one day's work and starting the next (for most people this is overnight between week days)
[*] 'weekly rest' - whole days when you don't come into work (for many people this will be the weekend)
[/list]

The second and third types of break are almost never paid unless you have to remain 'on call', meaning you are available to work. The first type is often paid, but doesn't have to be unless your contract says so.

So taking a ten minute break for a cuppa is optional, but th ebreak between shifts isn;t

[i]So taking a ten minute break for a cuppa is optional, but th ebreak between shifts isn;t [/i]

Still didn't say it was compulsory though, in fact it backs up it up saying you can be paid if you employer agrees.

Sounds like the management are trying it on. If you correctly informed them that you will not be starting work until later then its your right to not be pressured into anything. I would go in as previously arranged and have a word with the manager and highlight the H & S aspect of things. If your doing a lot of driving, just tell him your not comfortable driving when not properly rested. We've all seen in the news about what has happended when people fall asleep at the wheel.
Personaly I'd get your point across now and in future just ignore all incoming calls that could be work related

The driving when so tired worries me, though being epxected to pull long hours doesn't.

I've done my fair share of 24+ hour "days" (longest is 40 hours), as it's considered par for the course in the rather macho world I work in.

However, I would never drive after those days - I know of two people who were very lucky to walk away from car crashes after a 48 hour transaction closing and who both crashed (independently) on the way home.

Not good.

TJ - that's what i told her, but all i got in reply was "i'll be fine".

Told her ok then, it won't be me scraping you off the motorway at 7:30am...

ok, slightly different, but i work for a company that does 'emergency call outs' ( yeah, it is classed as an emergency if someones lights arent working for a night :twisted:). So i regularly work an 8 ish hour day, then have to go out to do other work in the evenings. And then at weekends, its the same. Weekend before last i was working from 8.30 till 5. Got home, had dinner then had to go back out from 7 till 11. Then up again to do similar on sunday....

I know it's illegal, especially as it isnt on my contract but if i kick up a fuss, i'll be out the door. There were 98 applicants for my job so it wouldnt be hard to replace me.

I plan to leave in february at the latest anyway, but it takes the p1ss really.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm - looking at the TUC site it appears that if you ask for the 11 hr break you have to be granted it ( unless you are in one of the rare exceptions) but if you don't want it you don't have to have it.

Not how I understood it and not clear on that site.

Thanks to Europe, we have had
minimum standards for rest breaks
since 1998. Most people are entitled to:
a break where the working day is
longer than six hours
a rest period of 11 hours every working
day
a rest period of 24 hours once in every
seven days.
Following a successful legal case
brought by a trade union, employers
now have a duty to make sure that you
[i][b]can[/b][/i] take your breaks.

My italics and bold - from a tuc leaflet

oh yeah, another company once asked me to go from one job to 'help for a couple of hours' at another job. I ended up working a 25 hour shift. Then my boss got angry when i asked him to pay for a hotel, as i didnt really fancy driving through central london in the rush hour after that...

I am fairly sure it is an absolute

its not absolute

Daily rest

Under the Working Time Regulations 1998, regulation 10, a worker is entitled to a rest period of 11 consecutive hours rest in each 24 hour period during which he works for his employer.

However, there are a number of special circumstances in which the entitlement to rest periods does not apply, for example, where the activities involve a need for continuity of service or production or where there is a foreseeable surge of activity. Also, if a shift worker changes shift, it may not be possible for them to take their full rest entitlement before starting the new pattern of work. In such a case the entitlement to daily and weekly rest does not apply.

Those are some of the exemptions - non of which apply in this case and even then you have the right to the compensatory rest. Is that not old advice that has been superseded anyway following various court cases. I don't think the shift worker one applies now - I know both in the NHS and police they always get the 11 hrs off - even if a shift runs over you start the next day late to compensate

[url] http://www.hse.gov.uk/roadsafety/practical.htm [/url]

oh and the travel issue is a hot one from an H & S perspective.

Is that not old advice that has been superseded anyway following various court cases

not according to the HSE & DTI.

In any case I'd suggest the OP calls 0845 345 0055 (HSE hotline) and gets their opinion.

"TandemJeremy - Member
Those are some of the exemptions - non of which apply in this case and even then you have the right to the compensatory rest. Is that not old advice that has been superseded anyway following various court cases. I don't think the shift worker one applies now - I know both in the NHS and police they always get the 11 hrs off - even if a shift runs over you start the next day late to compensate"

Not in the NHS I work in

I know both in the NHS and police they always get the 11 hrs off - even if a shift runs over you start the next day late to compensate [/quote

pretty sure that's only true in cloud cuckoo land!

 

Ah well - it certainly happens where I work and with the police I have worked with - maybe not if its 15 mins over but certainly if its an hour over.

Most of the NHS shifts have at least 11.5 hrs off between them anyway

I'd be in by 8:30. I wouldn't do it every day obviously, but as a one off, yeah of course I would. I'd make bloody sure that my boss new what a hero I was though.

Equally if someone working for me said they'd be in late because of the situation described I'd be fine with it.

my back shift finishes 22:00, early shift next day 07:00. generally twice a week.

to be fair tho I wouldnt change it if I could. Gets 2 days work done in 24hrs and improves days off.

Wot TJ said. Tell 'em to stuff it. You can't let them walk all over you when it gets to stuff like this.
Try and be reasonable first, but it that doesn't work, I'd imagine you're the one holding all the cards.

If somebody was asking me to work that far from home, for those hours, I'd be expecting a hotel at night, TBH.

Or me,finish 21:00,back on at 07:15,these are standard shifts.
Ian

thejesmonddingo / sweepy - both working illegal shifts? Why?

these shift were phased out in the NHS where I work 10 years ago

TBH mate I think its because people like it that way, and change comes slowly this far from centre

The NHS I work in allows you to take the 11 hours rest or opt out and take the cash, it's up to you and you can pick and choose on each occasion it happens.

TJ you win the 'Wolfy Smith' award for the most militant person on STW 😀

I completely agree with everything you're saying about employment law. But I would also add that there is employment law and then there is the real world and while they should overlap 100%, they rarely do.

CASH! - no one told me about any cash, its just what we do. Might have to look into that

[i]CASH! - no one told me about any cash, its just what we do. Might have to look into that[/i]

You work overtime you get cash, simple.

Sounds like a typical situation I would find myself in when I was in large system support. It took me over 20 years of trying to get away from all that nonsense. That was around 5 years ago. I've been struggling to get work ever since.

Employers take the fxxking piss!

Either accept this, or work damned hard to get a job where you are only expected to do a sensible working week.

Cheers for the above discussion, as I work for a private sector company are there any unions that I can join?

Also the original job was supposed to be an up & back in a day affair it ran over after as things took longer than 'management' envisaged, if it wasn't for the fact I'm on medication I'd've booked an hotel on the company credit card.

You can also mention corporate manslaughter charges will follow if the working practices lead to a death (either driving or at work).
T&G will accept you or their staff section.