I’m 5 pages late, but it makes no sense to blame the pope. If as you say there are 135 million Catholics in Africa, the pope is talking to only about 13% of the population and given that many of those don’t really do exactly as he says, we might reasonably be down to less that 10% of the population. So a real minority of Africans are influenced by the pope yet you still claim it’s the fault of the Catholic Church?

You’re ignoring the pressure the Catholic church can put on western governments, and the way that alters their funding of educational charities. It’s not just the pope telling “his” people how to act, which to my mind is perfectly reasonable.

“Why are aetheists so angry?”
Most anger stems from frustration.
Probably, in this case, because science has been unable to prove there is no God.

And another thread to prove that the STW Massive can argue about absolutely anything.

Yeah! Imagine arguing about religion and the existence of god.

That’s stupid. Let’s discuss something that matters.. like X Factor. 🙄

Who mentioned being offended, McBoo(****ing hoo); that’s just something you believe you read in my post. I don’t care what you argue about, I was pointing out that this is proof that you lot can argue about stuff that simply can’t be proved either way.

And the Milk Monitor bit – you blew that out of the water when you told me to get lost. Do you know what the word irony means…

And another thread to prove that the STW Massive can argue about absolutely anything.

I can’t quite find a word to describe the majority of you but for the most part, you all need to take a long look at yourselves.

FFS…

Some of quite like arguing. I find the long argument threads to be one of the more entertaining parts of STW.

And where is TJ by the way???

Probably, in this case, because science has been unable to prove there is no God.

I’d be very surprised if anyone was frustrated about that!

Well that’s your redaction of what I said,

Yes, it is.

but you’ve kind of made my case for me by taking a moderate observation and ridiculing it by adding a fair amount of hyperbole that was never intended.

I’ve just read back, and I’m at a loss as to how I’m ‘ridiculing’ anything. Either my comment was accurate or I’ve misunderstood what you’re trying to say; if the latter, I’m open to clarification.

It sounds like you’re saying we’ve all got the wrong end of the stick, but are then refusing to put the record straight because we’re all meanies, or something?

The point I was trying to make was that it might be better for both parties if you did try to dismiss these erroneous clichés; we’d have a better understanding and you wouldn’t be misrepresented.

You then deride the ‘irony’ implied by your re-interpretation of my statement, and then wonder why folks like myself prefer not to get involved in discussions like this.

You don’t see an irony in speaking out about being grouped into a stereotype, then stereotyping everyone else in the next sentence?

I’m going to decline the offer to articulate what I think

I thought you might.

– I’ve spent 20 odd years as a Christian, 5 of them at theological college, trying to gradually piece together an understanding of a world I find unimaginably complex. As I said earlier, I still regard my worldview, and myself, as a “work in progress” both of them are exceedingly frail in places, and I’m not prepared to parade either of them on here to have the crap kicked out of them for someone else’s amusement.

… which is fair enough. In your position, I’d probably want to do the same rather than throw myself to the lions on here.

I just find it odd that you’d want to go “you’ve got us all wrong” in the first place and then when (genuinely, despite my irreverent style of writing) asked to help clarify where we’re going wrong, go “I’m not telling you.”

And where is TJ by the way???

Organising the hen weekend in Glasgow or buying some warm clothing for manning the picket line?

Milk Monitor? 😯

We’ve got people in detention for not doing their homework, me getting a gold star and being good at swimming, and now a Milk Monitor?

Good to see that the importance of good nutrition is not something that’s bin ignored.

I’m surprised she hazzunt bin mentioned, as after all it’s probbly all her fault….

No, you think about how such moral codes wooduv bin disseminated without the framework of religion

So at best Religion is like a centuries old version of BT? We all know how crap they are.

Yeah, Graham, I appear on all the X-Sphincter discussion threads don’t I.

perhaps agnostics and atheists could focus on what leads to this peace. Cotton wool or something more profound and real?

When you are little and your mum gives you a cuddle it can make everything seem alright.

To me the “peace” I see from religion is people in the belief that they are in a similar embrace with their God.

If that makes them feel better then I’m happy for them, but it is no more “profound and real” to me than thinking Superman will protect me. I can’t take comfort from it as they do, because I don’t believe in it.

So if life on Earth was kickstarted by an alien then are they “a God”?

No, they’re scientists.

If the universe was kickstarted by an alien, on the other hand…

Probably, in this case, because science has been unable to prove there is no God

I think science has much more important issues to address than superstition.

You’re ignoring the pressure the Catholic church can put on western governments, and the way that alters their funding of educational charities. It’s not just the pope telling “his” people how to act, which to my mind is perfectly reasonable.

Show me some evidence. Which governments do you mean? Surely it’s the Government to blame. If the the ignorant masses were influenced by a man in a dress, you might reasonably blame the man in the dress. But if a government listens to the man in a dress, they are culpable. If the Pope told them to jump off a bridge would they?

http://www-958.ibm.com/software/data/cognos/manyeyes/visualizations/birth-rate-catholicism-and-hiv-aid

pypdjl,
Just an observation.
A belief system worshipping scientific proof, and yet without proof of its key position: “there are no deities” appears to be naturally frustrating.

I have not read all 6 pages –

The influence of the Catholic church goes far beyonds its members and there is no doubt at all that Catholic churchs position on condoms is responsible for many deaths.

😆

If that makes them feel better then I’m happy for them, but it is no more “profound and real” to me than thinking Superman will protect me. I can’t take comfort from it as they do, because I don’t believe in it.

Fair enough Graham – but what would you do in the hypothetical (I hope) situation of facing a potentially fatal accident (eg ship sinking) or fatal disease affecting you/someone you know. Would you be tempted to say a little prayer?

If the the ignorant masses were influenced by a man in a dress, you might reasonably blame the man in the dress.

true

But if a government listens to the man in a dress, they are culpable.

also true, the problem is when the government are in the crossdressers gang and they find it so very hard to distinguish between what is in their countries best interests and what is in their gangs best interests. This is (I beleive) many people’s issue with religion.

(not commenting on the validity or otherwise of the “it’s the pope’s fault” example)

If the universe was kickstarted by an alien, on the other hand…

Big Bang == Alien Large Hadron Collider ? 😀

I’m not angry, but I get quite annoyed that it is assumed I am a christian (as I am white and english) – its quite offensive really as it assumes I dont have an open mind.

Religion makes no sense to me. Dont understand why anyone would want to be a part of any religion. It stymies the mind. I cant see a reason for it existing apart from to control people, and ultimately as a way of making money.

And I dont believe in a ‘god’ because there is no evidence for it. But it is not up to me to prove a deity does not exist – you can’t prove a negative. There is however, multitudes of information that makes an attempt to explain the universe and our place in it that does not need to include a deity.

I don’t have ‘believe’ in anything, but I do ‘trust’ the opinions of scientists who follow peer-reviewed scientifical analysis of a wide range of things, but to have ‘beliefs’ seems to be crazy to me.

What happens if something changes – you should be able to change your mind – your a free person and no priest or other religious leader should tell you otherwise.

For me, belief systems stemmed from a less educated time, when we didnt understand how the earth worked and why there were bright points of light in the sky. In lieu of an explanation humans clutched for something to explain these things. But as we learnt abvout the world, we came to understand the processes for more and more of the way the world works.

This universe is bigger than this earth and the whims of man. There is highly likely to be intelligent life somewhere in the universe because it is just so vast. Would they have a ‘god’? Some of them probably would for the same reasons as humans do.

Or maybe they are advanced to the stage were they actually know the answer, and maybe they are all religious or have abandoned the idea of a deity altogether. We dont know, but it would be interesting to find out, but we won’t find out with our eyes clamped shut by ‘belief’.

Mcboo,
If atheists had much more important issues, would so many be posting on this thread?

As an atheist, I am angry that according to fact and good quality evidence, there appears to be no afterlife. I also have a guilty conscience as there is no one who can absolve me of my lifetime of sin.

TandemJeremy – Member
I have not read all 6 pages –

The influence of the Catholic church goes far beyonds its members and there is no doubt at all that Catholic churchs position on condoms is responsible for many deaths

That in itself is a form of population control?

Fair enough Graham – but what would you do in the hypothetical (I hope) situation of facing a potentially fatal accident (eg ship sinking) or fatal disease affecting you/someone you know. Would you be tempted to say a little prayer?

Having been in situations like that I can happily report the answer is no. But even if I had, what would that prove? That humans are fearful and look for a comfort blanket in times of stress? That they often hedge their bets, after all what is there to lose by saying a prayer “just in case”?

Seems to prove the point that religion is often driven by fear and ignorance.

If atheists had much more important issues, would so many be posting on this thread?

The lack of worshipping gives us a bit more free time than the theists.

If atheists had much more important issues, would so many be posting on this thread?

of course religious people have more issues than atheists, that should go without saying. 🙄

Cougar 🙂

Fair enough Graham – but what would you do in the hypothetical (I hope) situation of facing a potentially fatal accident (eg ship sinking) or fatal disease affecting you/someone you know. Would you be tempted to say a little prayer?

I don’t think so.

When relatives have died there was a part of me that really wished I could believe they were off to a better place, would be reunited with Grandad and still be looking out for me, etc – but I knew I would just be lying to myself.

It is false comfort (to me) – like that mother’s hug: the world really isn’t alright when she cuddles you, even if it feels like it is just for a moment. Tomorrow will still be Monday and Mr Blakely the gym teacher is still going to touch you funny in the showers after PE.

I think science has much more important issues to address than superstition.

What, like sending crap gadgets to Mars, just to see them break down before they’ve even got there?

Fifty million quid. For bugger all. 🙄

there is no doubt at all that Catholic churchs position on condoms is responsible for many deaths

I’ll wager it’s more than offset by its responsibility for the number of births.

(Which, of course, is the point of the policy; to create as many ready-made believers as possible.)

That’s a a very positive outlook Graham. Sounds a right laugh that. Suddenly religion sounds like a hoot!

Show me some evidence. Which governments do you mean? Surely it’s the Government to blame. If the the ignorant masses were influenced by a man in a dress, you might reasonably blame the man in the dress. But if a government listens to the man in a dress, they are culpable. If the Pope told them to jump off a bridge would they?

There was a lot of religious lobbying when PEPFAR was being enacted:
http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/resources/journal/21_3/essay/001.html
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06395.pdf

The act specifically included a get-out clause for religious objection to condoms. I freely admit I have no idea if the pope himself was personally involved in the lobbying.

I’ll find out for you Fred

I can’t imagine the Pope has a lot of use for condoms these days.

there is no doubt at all that Catholic churchs position on condoms is responsible for many deaths
I’ll wager it’s more than offset by its responsibility for the number of births.

(Which, of course, is the point of the policy; to create as many ready-made believers as possible.)

If the catholic population keeps increasing, think of the amount of cats they’ll need to feed their addiction.