Why are Scottish and Welsh folk so patriotic ?

Perhaps its a dangerous assumption to believe that politicians are in control/proactive at all?

It’s not only a dangerous assumption, it is completely wrong. Politicians have very little control the maths shows that. One of the few things the do have decent control of is security and they can set a general framework the country exists within, otherwise forget it.

I was being generous!! 😉

duckman
Since you are doing your “you have all been brainwashed” pish that you like to wheel out, care to comment on the below stats?
UKIP 14.1% of the vote England
UKIP 1.6%………….Scotland (2015 GE) Is that current enough for you?

My point about seeing beyond the movement was aimed at ben not every yes voter.

In terms of UKIP/SNP I do think that they are to an extent fighting over the same ground. One at the core of dissastisfaction with aloof governements and both use geographical boundaries to differentiate traits between peoples.
Don’t believe your stats are evidence of a more openminded and tolerant position of Scottish people compared to our neighbours. I know plenty of people on both sides of the debate that are as xenophobic as elsewhere. Yes won’t tell you this. You are gallus, fun loving, argumentative and caring remember. Don’t believe the hype!

So what does that do for the brickie in Liverpool? Aren’t I just abandoning them to the Tories? There’s two answers to that. The first is I can’t help them now – staying in the UK, we in Scotland have pretty much no influence over Westminster, so we can’t help in any meaningful sense. The second answer is that if Scotland leaves, we might break the Westminster system, and might also lead by example. Might not, but it’s worth a go.

The third answer is yes you are abandoning them to the Tories.

In terms of UKIP/SNP I do think that they are to an extent fighting over the same ground.

Bollocks.

In terms of UKIP/SNP I do think that they are to an extent fighting over the same ground.

And if you were in the US, you could chuck in Trump as well.

staying in the UK, we in Scotland have pretty much no influence over Westminster

Bollocks.

50 odd MPs representing your nationalist party is pretty big influence.

Sure they can’t defeat the Tories in THIS parliament, but that changes every 5 years. You can’t flounce out just because the vote doesn’t go your way for ****’s sake. If everyone did that the country would disintegrate.

My view on the “Scots being less xenophobic than the English” argument is that on the surface it looks like it might be true, but even if there is a difference it’s likely to be related to there being less of an impact in Scotland at the moment, as backed up by some stats posted earlier.

I split my time pretty much evenly between Scotland and England (and in fact am a 50:50 Scottish:English mongrel anyway). In London I live in an affluent suburb of London (although technical my place is a few metres into Essex), and in Scotland I live in an affluent suburb of Edinburgh. Where I live in London has a lot of ethnic diversity (for the borough as a whole “white British” are a minority, something like 35% at the last census) where as in Edinburgh “white British” makes up more than 90% of the population (and I suspect it’s even more in the area I live).

So for me if there is a difference in attitude towards refugee’s and immigration etc. it’s because of circumstances & impact, not any real difference in attitudes etc.

50 odd MPs representing your nationalist party is pretty big influence.

Some influence but no power – in Westminster anyway.

Some influence but no power – in Westminster anyway

And how many million London voters are in the same position?

You could say the same thing about any regional area of the UK that isn’t entirely Tory.

Really pisses me off when Scots nationalists make out that there’s some fundamental difference between them and the rest of the UK. As if the whole of England, Wales and NI are entirely Tory right wingers and everyone the other side of that line is suddenly a leftie on some fundamental level. Don’t talk shite.

As a non-Scottish non-Tory living under the same Tory government with even less defence from it than the Scots, this really winds me up.

Diddums.

I’m not saying it wasn’t also true for other areas as well – but having 50 MP’s in Westminster doesn’t give you all that much when the government has an absolute majority.

So can I have a quick precis – of the past few pages…
has it just turned into the usual SNP hijacking the thread and spouting how much they hate the English (with some Glencoe, Auld Alliance blx) whilst denying they do?

Really pisses me off when Scots nationalists make out that there’s some fundamental difference between them and the rest of the UK. As if the whole of England, Wales and NI are entirely Tory right wingers and everyone the other side of that line is suddenly a leftie on some fundamental level. Don’t talk shite.

Actually, they have a point…

And how many million London voters are in the same position?

You could say the same thing about any regional area of the UK that isn’t entirely Tory.

Which is exactly my point – the Westminster voting system is broken. I don’t think that the average English person is much more right-wing and xenophobic than the average Scot, it’s that the system allows the right-wing xenophobes to take and hold complete power.

has it just turned into the usual SNP hijacking the thread and spouting how much they hate the English (with some Glencoe, Auld Alliance blx) whilst denying they do?

I thought it was more the SNP/Scots haters taking any chance they could to spout off (this being the usual candidates). Probably it’s a bit of both.

Actually, they have a point…

That’s an old map – back when the LibDems were still a political party.

it’s that the system allows the right-wing xenophobes to take and hold complete power.

ben, have you lost your smiley emojo?

ben, have you lost your smiley emojo?

Yeah, kinda lost the smiley emojo when we’re talking about a government that turns away child refugees while selling arms for Saudi Arabia to bomb civilians with.

It’s pretty impressive, really – I didn’t think there could be a more hateful PM than Thatcher, but Cameron has managed it.

oh I see?

[Actually point stands even more after that, but I will let it pass despite memories of a certain (late) ethical (?) foreign secretary clearly in mind]

How dare 1.5 million people in Scotland vote for a party that represents them! Don’t they know it’s their job to keep the English from self-harming?

Ironic that the English are now pointing the blame for their woes north.

it’s that the system allows the right-wing xenophobes to take and hold complete power.

Really last governments were Con-Lib coalition, then Labour back to 1997.

On a Scottish representation note, Scotland has provided 7 Prime Ministers who were born there (6 since 1850) and 6 Prime Ministers have represented Scottish constituencies while in power. (Bannerman and Brown being on both lists).

That’s an old map – back when the LibDems were still a political party.

Well spotted. It’s actually much bluer now.

Really last governments were Con-Lib coalition, then Labour back to 1997.

Blair started several wars, including the one that got us into the massive mess in the Middle East. Despite the views of the people.

On a Scottish representation note, Scotland has provided 7 Prime Ministers…

Who cares? What does it matter where the PMs were born? It’s about having a government that represents the views of the people.

a government that turns away a bunch of[/i] child refugees

The views of the people were that they wanted more of Labour and Blair. Here is the 2005 general election map for Scotland which took place after the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Ironic that the English are now pointing the blame for their woes north.

It would be, if anyone had.

It took a while for people to wake up about Labour – for most of my life, Labour could have put up a shop dummy with a red rosette and it’d have been elected in Glasgow. Their fall from grace has been spectacular.

It’s not over yet. JC will finish the job.

It’s about having a government that represents the views of the people.

Which is ironic as it appears one of the main drivers for England voting Tory in the last election was to avoid the SNP tail wagging the Labour dog.

Which is ironic as it appears one of the main drivers for England voting Tory in the last election was to avoid the SNP tail wagging the Labour dog.

That was the media perception, I think there’s been polling that shows that that wasn’t such an issue in reality.

It’s hard to know what Labour can do. There was another poll which asked Scots if Corbyn would make them more likely to vote Labour. 50% said no difference, 32% said less likely.

Labour is about as popular as the Tories in Scotland now. It’s hard to know what Labour can do about that, to win the Westminster election. Maybe cutting Scottish Labour loose and then working constructively with the SNP would help, I’m not sure.

It would be, if anyone had.[/quote]

But disregarding ethnic/geographical affiliations at least we can all get behind solving this air/water/poverty/food/pollution/climate/extinction stuff, can’t we?

Completely untrue though isn’t it scotroutes?
The scots are almost exclusively SNP now so by leaving they wouldn’t actually be changing anything with regards to UK elections.

That was the media perception, I think there’s been polling that shows that that wasn’t such an issue in reality.

I’ve heard a few people say that keeping the SNP out was a factor for them, but overwhelmingly the main reason for the move away from NuLab that I’ve heard people say was the Milliband factor.

Completely untrue though isn’t it scotroutes?
The scots are almost exclusively SNP now so by leaving they wouldn’t actually be changing anything with regards to UK elections.

Some people seem to have difficulty understanding that the election of a British government, even a Labour one, isn’t usually affected by the vote in Scotland.

wrecker – Member – Block User – Quote
Completely untrue though isn’t it scotroutes?

At the moment, yes. There was some noise about this “SNP wagging Labour” but there was some independent post-election research discounting that. In any case, Scottish MPs have never been able to outvote English MPs in Westminster, so the English always get the laws and policies they vote for.

Ben raises the idea that an independent Scotland could somehow “inspire” disenfranchised English voters but then we’re back to the “who will vote for Corbyn” discussion; either there’s an army of non-voters waiting for the right party or the electorate just aren’t interested in those sorts of policies.

TBH, I’m probably too far removed to make sensible attempt at discerning which is true.

so the English always get the laws and policies they vote for.

Not always. Didn’t Labour have to rely on their Scottish MP’s to impose tuition fees on England?

Not always. Didn’t Labour have to rely on their Scottish MP’s to impose tuition fees on England?[/quote]If only the English Labour MPs had voted against it eh? 😆

either there’s an army of non-voters waiting for the right party or the electorate just aren’t interested in those sorts of policies

Which gets us back to discussions of whether the English electorate is more right-wing than the Scottish electorate.

Really, though, it’s still the same fundamental problem that the only parties that are electable under the Westminster system seem to be right-of-centre ones.

At the moment, yes.

Can you see it changing?