Why are Scottish and Welsh folk so patriotic ?

There’s no real need to isolate these instances to “British” is there.

There is if you’re trying to point out the hypocrisy of the Scotch whining about being oppressed when they were some of the most zealous oppressors in the colonisation, enslavements and genocides of the British Empire!

That I’m proud to be from the North of England isn’t any less valid than you being proud of being able to wear a colorful skirt to your wedding :-p

Correct. It’s equally valid and you should be proud of being from wherever you are. It’s not the fault of the Scots or the Welsh that some* English people struggle to express that.

* not the Cornish. They are excellent at it.

…..also, you should try wearing a colourful skirt. You’ll never feel better dressed in your life.

Depends on your definition doesn’t it? Works for the “larger urban area”!

Enfield and Wembley are in London, Dartford isn’t. Does anyone say ‘London’ and actually mean the square mile?

Northwind – Member
A friend of mine got mugged at gunpoint in Jamaica. They took his wallet, looked inside, decided he was english, suddenly things escalate, tirades of abuse and punches and kicks, he’s reasonably sure he’s getting shot. Naw, naw mate, am no ****in english, am scottish. Scottish, ken? No wan o thae english ****s, we hate them too. Every **** does! And suddenly, they’re all bezzie mates, and he gets an armed escort back to touristland to make sure he doesn’t get shot by some other gang.

Is your friend James McAvoy perchance?

Being proud to be welsh in my area just means putting on a rugby top and getting pissed everytime the six nations comes around.

It’s the old rule of increased accent- the further from their house a scottish person gets, the more incomprehensible they are. By the time I get through passport control I’ve turned into oor wullie. Ian goes a bit Begbie.

DrJ – Member

So his assailants, as well as being violent criminals, were also bigots ignorant of history. I’m struggling to see where the “pride” comes in?

The pride comes from being a nation that’s recognised and well received in the world. In this particular case, by orrible people but that’s just what makes it a funny story. If you want the same situation without the mugging, riding in the pyrenees, a group of us are sitting by the road. A little old lady walks past and goes “huh, anglais”. I go “Non mademoiselle, ecossez”, she smiles and laughs, “Ahhhh, eccosez, pardon!”.

Northwind – Member

It’s the old rule of increased accent- the further from their house a scottish person gets, the more incomprehensible they are. By the time I get through passport control I’ve turned into oor wullie. Ian goes a bit Begbie.

True enough, but I meant it sounds a lot like the plot of The Last King of Scotland! 🙂

retro83 – Member

True enough, but I meant it sounds a lot like the plot of The Last King of Scotland!

And no coincidence tbh. I don’t know how true the book is- the film’s definitely more fictionalised- but that part rang exactly true, it’s a conversation you often have as a scot abroad. Though you don’t usually end up running Uganda.

(my brother went to switzerland for the uefa cup- Scotland hadn’t qualified but they went anyway, kilts and strips and welcomed everywhere. Kissed the girls, got bought a hundred drinks, chanted “where is thomas flogel”, played football with the police, supported whoever was losing, and got featured in half the newspapers in europe, they were the default happy face of random football. The world view of travelling english fans, not quite the same)

I’m English. I can’t do anything to change that, so I may as well be proud of it and back the team. I’m also British, and have bloody cheered on many Scottish and Welsh members of of Team GB in various forms. I’ve been utterly proud of the likes of Chris Hoy winning gold at the olympics.

It’s always been Great Britain or the UK since I was born and personally, take this as you will, i couldn’t give a toss about history. I live with people today, not hundreds of years ago. What happened then should have no bearing on the people living today. I wasn’t there so it wasn’t my fault!

I’ve traveled the world and been insulted for being English (Aus) as well as having my hand shaken just for being English (Fiji). I didn’t really understand either reaction.

It’s the Olympics this year, and I think we should all get behind the British athletes and teams regardless of their accent or suncream requirements!!

Can we all not just get along…………

The pride comes from being a nation that’s recognised and well received in the world.

Your anecdote is less about the Scottish being well received and more about some Jamaican criminals not understanding that the Scots were perfectly willing accomplices in the “English” oppression of their ancestors. The reality of the situation is the empire was built by the British not the English and the Scots were not only willing participants but profited from the empire as much as anyone.

Another anecdote for you. I once met a bloke in Marakech who told me how much he hated the French for what they did to his country. How they oppressed the people, held them back and took what they wanted and how as such he refused to talk to French people and wouldn’t let them stay in his hotel. If I stop it there it’s pretty anti-French. A bit later on in the conversation it ended up a bit “Life of Brian” with him commenting that the French kept the trains running on time, hospitals working properly and the roads repaired etc. That part of the conversation was universally positive about French influence. In reality both parts are true and it’s a shit anecdote to argue a specific point unless you see it as it really is.

Like a lot of anecdotes (including yours) are.

The pride comes from being a nation that’s recognised and well received in the world.

Given the history of Jamaica, there’s no reason for Scots to be any better-received than the English.

It’s the Olympics this year, and I think we should all get behind the British athletes and teams regardless of their accent or suncream requirements!!

Hmm, nah. For me there is something powerfully uncool about ‘Britain’ which makes it impossible to get behind. I think I’d rather have individual national Olympic teams, even if it means the inevitable Scotland propping up the medals table.

Seriously, to me Britain is just a political term, I don’t associate it with a country, a culture, anything really, just a parliament.

I identify it as my political leanings that makes me more Scottish than British,but that probably makes me a Northern Briton.I don’t see North of Birmingham as anything other than a resource bank to the South of England,and that has been reinforced by some of the reporting during the last election,for shit and giggles I got the front page of the Scottish and English Sun tweeted to me every day,some of the reporting (not just in the Sun) had me wondering when AS and wee Nic were going to be doing the ISIS salute…As for oppression,that takes a number of forms,testing the Poll tax,trading fishing quotas with other EU countries,building a spanking new HS railway that stops in the Midlands. I am quietly smug about where I live,but if I lived in the Dales I would probably be the same,is that patriotism or nationalism? The post about wee neighbours probably sums it up,along with the point that the English flag is tainted with the far right. I think us and the Welsh are more likely to blow our own err….bagpipes because we are the wee neighbour.I also think that the media has stirred up division a heck of a lot since the referendum.

No idea why you’re so keen to twist that story, maybe just not very happy with the reality of it? If he’d gone there on holiday in the 1700s you’d have a good point but this isn’t about ancient history- it’s about about how the 2 nations are viewed in the world today.

I don’t see North of Stirling as anything other than a resource bank for the Central belt.

Can we all not just get along…………

If that was the attitude adopted by Britain over the past 200 years, maybe we could. But it isn’t.

Britain, via its empire, has a long history of charging around the world and not getting along, treating others with utter disdain – dividing nations and dismantling cultures.

But it’s not 200 **** years ago! It’s now!!

Why the hell do people want to constantly bring up the past? Do we all HATE Germans? I don’t, they’re just people.

Given the history of Jamaica, there’s no reason for Scots to be any better-received than the English.

There is a very good/simple reason, and that is that the perception of British History is of Scotland being the oppressed/plucky loser, however inaccurate/untrue it may be.

I doubt there’s many Scots could explain who fought for who in which battle over the centuries, so I wouldn’t expect many Jamaicans to know, likewise, I doubt many of the slaver ships were flying a Scottish flag, more likely a Union jack or a St. George’s cross? Both of which are probably more readily associated with England than Scotland.

Anyway, I’m wading into historical territory I know precious little about, better step away from the keyboard…

I identify it as my political leanings that makes me more Scottish than British,but that probably makes me a Northern Briton

Northern British, South Welsh and Londoner?

The concept of geographical identity aligned with politics is a bit ridiculous; I would wager there are more left leaning voters in Southern England than there are in Scotland.

I don’t see North of Birmingham as anything other than a resource bank to the South of England

That shows ignorance of the structural problem that Britain has – the size of the London economy compared to the rest of it. A problem shared by many other countries of course.

London is a snowball. It gets investment because so many businesses are there – and the more businesses that are there, the more businesses want to be there. And it’s not a modern political thing – it’s been like that since Roman times. It would be extremely hard and possibly very damaging to reverse that.

To imagine it as a vendetta against the North is absurd and paranoid, imo. Remember, Tories want to make money above everything else. Money knows no nationalism.

Why the hell do people want to constantly bring up the past?

Because it still has an effect. Why are Gaelic, Scots and Welsh minority languages? Why does everyone take the piss out of the Welsh all the time? Why is there an independence movement in Scotland?

No idea why you’re so keen to twist that story, maybe just not very happy with the reality of it? If he’d gone there on holiday in the 1700s you’d have a good point but this isn’t about ancient history- it’s about about how the 2 nations are viewed in the world today.

Jamaica was ruled by Britain until 1962.

Britain, via its empire, has a long history of charging around the world and not getting along, treating others with utter disdain – dividing nations and dismantling cultures.

Only Britain?

I would suggest that ALL entities in power have done very similar in the recent past. The British were just the biggest lot, for a while, that’s all.

to me Britain is just a political term, I don’t associate it with a country

That is dead wrong I’m afraid on so many levels.

How many Scots and Welsh are on this site? How many foreigners who have no connection to Britain?

Both of which are probably more readily associated with England than Scotland.

Sure, but that doesn’t make it true. Is anyone seriously suggesting that the Welsh & Scots did not participate in the oppressive acts of the British Empire? I suppose it’s an inconvenient truth for countries that were undoubtedly oppressed by the English.

I don’t see North of Birmingham as anything other than a resource bank to the South of England

bit like how i view London, a resource bank for everywhere north of watford.
in return we get shortbread, black pudding, some hills to ride bikes on and whimsical TV dramas about 3 old men rolling down a hill in a barrel.
i feel a bit short changed TBH.
🙄

Jesus all of these scots going to France and getting slobbery kisses from old ladies for being Scottish. It’s like the bigot that comes out with the line “well my friend/boss/hairdresser hates Muslims and he’s Indian” – as if that proves anything

It’s almost like it’s total rubbish.

But it’s not 200 **** years ago! It’s now!!

Why the hell do people want to constantly bring up the past? Do we all HATE Germans? I don’t, they’re just people.

Because it still effects people on a day-to-day level.

If you’re so into just getting along then why create barriers between yourself and the most powerful country in Europe, Germany.

Why not stop English from being taught in schools – replace it with German to help foster togerthness and to remove barriers. Stop teaching English/British history and start teaching German history.

It sounds daft but a similar process took place in Wales in the C19th and continues to impact on the country today.

Can’t be arsed.

Sure, but that doesn’t make it true. Is anyone seriously suggesting that the Welsh & Scots did not participate in the oppressive acts of the British Empire? I suppose it’s an inconvenient truth for countries that were undoubtedly oppressed by the English

I don’t claim it makes it true and I doubt anyone is suggesting Welsh and Scots weren’t complicit.

Inconvenient truth is one good way of putting it, another is simply that the ‘truth’ is much more complicated than the nice neat (dare I say ‘Hollywood’) perception that Scots/Welsh weren’t the nasty imperialists, rather the plucky rebels/underdogs?

.

to me Britain is just a political term, I don’t associate it with a country

That is dead wrong I’m afraid on so many levels.

Gosh really? You mean Britain is a country? 😯

Obviously I recognise it as a country in a strictly factual sense, but I would never identify as British unless ‘Scottish’ wasn’t an option, i.e. on customs declarations/passport forms etc.

If Britain is a country, and Scotland is a country, then that means I’m from two countries. Don’t tell me I’m wrong because I happen to choose which one I prefer to say I’m from. 😉

I’m Welsh, born and live in Wales. All my parents and grandparents were born in Wales, but originally my family came from Scotland and the West country. Wales is a great place with for the most part warm and friendly people. But outside of the Uk I think of myself as British and I’m proud to be so. I’m only Welsh if people assume I’m English.
I’m patriotic to Britain first, all of it, then Wales. Putting a Welsh rugby shirt on and getting pissed is fun. But to me that’s all it is, a bit of fun. Other views exist but not everyone in Wales is what we refer to as “professional Welsh men”

MrSmith – Member

I don’t see North of Birmingham as anything other than a resource bank to the South of England

bit like how i view London, a resource bank for everywhere north of watford.
in return we get shortbread, black pudding, some hills to ride bikes on and whimsical TV dramas about 3 old men rolling down a hill in a barrel.
i feel a bit short changed TBH

I am sure you will be able to hydrate and nourish yourself with all those notes when we all go our seperate ways.
Molgrips,that point about London is why I favour indy.

If you want the same situation without the mugging, riding in the pyrenees, a group of us are sitting by the road. A little old lady walks past and goes “huh, anglais”. I go “Non mademoiselle, ecossezais”, she smiles and laughs, “Ahhhh, eccosezais, pardon!”.

If you want the same situation without the mugging, riding in the pyrenees, a group of us are sitting by the road. A little old lady walks past and goes “huh, Jews”. I go “Non mademoiselle, Palestinians”, she smiles and laughs, “Ahhhh, Palestinians, pardon!”.

Apparently so – some sort of thing about ancient battles between people to whom we are only tenuously related as far as I can see.

Apparently so – some sort of thing about ancient battles between people to whom we are only tenuously related as far as I can see.

I think you’re only seeing what you want to see.

I’m only Welsh if people assume I’m English.

Always hard work explaining that to Americans, who seem to regard England and Britain as synonymous.

So you’re English?
No, I’m Welsh.
But you live in England
No, I live in Wales.
And Wales is in England right?
Sigh, whatever.

Diclosure – I only read the first 4 posts but:

Why not? Aren’t the English are equally patriotic about England (as opposed to the UK)?
What’s wrong with being patriotic?

Because English patriotism has long been associated with racism and oppression. Therefore is not politically correct to be a genuine overt patriotic English person.

Maybe. Or maybe you are? How is this “disdain” different to some old Alf Garnett type being unpleasant to German tourists?

I am Scottish. I don’t believe that Scots or Welsh people are more patriotic than any other nations with a larger more powerful neighbour. I think that most people in the rest of the world identify the UK as England and that many people in England identify the UK as England which may partly explain why English people seem less patriotic. Macruiskeen explained it well. As for history we would all do well to take a more jaundiced view as it’s largely only the victors version of history that’s recorded. Scots have a lot to take responsibility for such as their part in the slave trade and the klan as well as our own part in the Clearances etc

Apparently so – some sort of thing about ancient battles between people to whom we are only tenuously related as far as I can see.

Try flooding valleys in order to provide the English with water or not trying to pronounce place names correctly as it’s not important or the demands of English immigrants that Welsh is not spoken in schools. Is that enough to be getting on with? Or do you want more?

Maybe. Or maybe you are? How is this “disdain” different to some old Alf Garnett type being unpleasant to German tourists?

I’ve no idea what you’re on about. If you think that Welsh & Scottish grievances are limited to ancient battles then I can only assume that you haven’t read the thread properly, or are not arguing in good faith.

Well, I’m sure this thread has gone exactly the way the troll OP wanted it to.

I’m sure some of what many are describing as hate is actually resentment and perhaps I can build on the quote above to show why that might exist;

When I was a schoolchild in the late 60s/early 70s, I could have recited to you all the rulers of England since the roman invasion. One of my classes even had a wall frieze depicting them all. That was the history we were taught – as if English=British. There was no notion that Scotland existed prior to the Union and it was only as I matured that I learnt some of the stories – skewed at first with all the Jacobean nonsense but I began to dig even deeper to get past that. That pervasive camouflaging of the Scottish identity was, of course, part of a “system” involving both Scots and English so I don’t blame English people as individuals. In fact, most of my ire was directed at my own countrymen. I’d say I wasn’t alone in that either – the dismantling of the Tory vote in Scotland likely has much to do with that.

For another example, here’s a photo of the current queen at her coronation in London

and at her coronation in Scotland

Nice handbag, eh?

As for the Welsh situation, I wouldn’t profess to understand that on account of not being Welsh and not having been there for any length of time.

DrJ – Member

If you want the same situation without the mugging, riding in the pyrenees, a group of us are sitting by the road. A little old lady walks past and goes “huh, Jews”. I go “Non mademoiselle, Palestinians”, she smiles and laughs, “Ahhhh, Palestinians, pardon!”.

Right enough, that’s exactly what it’s like.