Why are Scottish and Welsh folk so patriotic ?

athgray
In terms of UKIP/SNP I do think that they are to an extent fighting over the same ground.
epicsteve
Bollocks.
Enlightening
So it is ok for you to talk about indy supporters spouting pish…your words…but not for anybody else to suggest you might be? Good effort trying to explain that ukip supporters would be voting SNP,based on nothing but your opinion.

I dont mind being told I am talking bollocks but it would be good to be backed up with something. I stand by my claims on UKIP/SNP. I will state strongly that NOT ALL SNP SUPPORTERS ARE UKIP SUPPORTERS, but there is a voting demographic in Scotland that is a bit racist/xenophobic and votes for the SNP because they re also anti UK. People that would vote for the likes of UKIP if Scottish indy wa not on the agenda. I know there are unionists that vote for UKIP also so it is a problem for us all.

I have based my opinion on travel experience, demographic data, and history. My opinion is that Scotland is no more or less xenophobic than the rest of the UK.

5thE: I can’t speak for UKIP but I can certainly support the SNP’s policies of social justice, alongside many others. This is probably the No.1 reason why the SNP have done so well in recent elections- they are the best hope that we currently have to bring about change to (or perhaps separation from) the appalling, destructive, dehumanising and self serving policies of the current Westminster elite boys’ club.

Scotland is now a better place for the positive influences that the SNP have brought over the last ten years or so. Their politics are mature; just not perfect.

“and votes for the SNP because they re also anti UK. “

There is a world of difference between this rather odd, negative view of independence and my experience of the majority of pro-I Scots, who have positive reasons for their views.

Wonderful day for British tennis too. 🙂

5thE: I can’t speak for UKIP but I can certainly support the SNP’s policies of social justice, alongside many others. This is probably the No.1 reason why the SNP have done so well in recent elections- they are the best hope that we currently have to bring about change to (or perhaps separation from) the appalling, destructive, dehumanising and self serving policies of the current Westminster elite boys’ club.

Swap Westminster to Brussels and you’ve got a UKIP party political broadcast.

Granted, the SNP are more successful, or the Scottish are more receptive, but it’s the same stuff.

almost no attempt at self-reflection/criticism on the other side. In fact any attempt at doing that is sometimes angrily dismissed as being un-patriotic/brainwashed etc.

This does my head in, I can’t understand the untouchable Glorious Leader style SNP-can-do-no-wrong thing, I don’t see why they are any different from the rest of them. There was so much complete fiction during the referendum about Scotland being on the verge of an oil boom and secret oil fields and so on, and everyone swallows it hook line and sinker without question. I think now they are actually getting officially told off about things like cutting climate change funding, saying north sea oil is booming, and maybe the forth road bridge people will start to view them objectively like any other politicians and maybe realise they can make mistakes and lie like the rest.

MrSmith – Member

And here is my problem with patriotism/nationalism, it makes otherwise sensible people start doing this kind of thing.

bit like a religion based on a mythical birthplace of a deity then.[/quote]
Nothing wrong with mythical birthplace unless of course you are communist? Yes? During Cultural Revolution the commies smashed all things idol or religious … as the famous saying by Dear Leader Mao “…religion is the opium of the people …” He then started to supply “opium” in his image. 😆

Yeah … diversity … identity … conformity … yeahhhh … the irony of life. 😆

scotroutes – Member
grum – at least you haven’t reached the desperation of roping in chewkw to support your argument

Shouldn’t he be using his own ideas rather than trying to reference me? Don’t tell me he has run out of ideas? Yes? No? 😯

teamhurtmore – Member
Oh, a bit below the belt.
Poor old chewkw takes some flak…..

Below the belt? Where? You call that below the belt?
Surely you can do better than that can’t you?
Is that the way of Lefties? 😆

grum – Member

Poor old chewkw takes some flak…..

I find his posts completely unreadable and/or meaningless, so I don’t bother generally.[/quote]
Perhaps you expect me to write an article explaining everything step-by-step or hand all explanation to you on the plate? Don’t be lazy will you and put some effort into understanding. 😮

scotroutes – Member

grum » Poor old chewkw takes some flak…..
I find his posts completely unreadable and/or meaningless, so I don’t bother generally.

Blocked here. I just wish folk would stop quoting bits in their posts. Mind you, I appreciate that some of them must be proud of doing their bit for Care in the Community. [/quote]

I sense the formation of the Lefties fellowship … 😆

Please congratulate each other … on …

Yeah … community …
Yeah … European Union …
Yeah … save the world …

Oh quick let us search for starving people …
Oh look starving people … (high tone voice jumping in joy clapping hands coz mission found)
Oh feed them quick! FEeedd THeemmmm! (in a deep serious voice demanding everyone to feed them while they command and do the PR spin) 😆

This does my head in, I can’t understand the untouchable Glorious Leader style SNP-can-do-no-wrong thing, I don’t see why they are any different from the rest of them.

As a non-SNP person, here’s my take on it. It seems that the SNP are in general trying to do the right thing. Other parties, especially in Scotland, seem more interested in trying to score points off each other than actually doing the right thing.

That may be complete fiction of course, but it’s the feeling I get. It helps a lot that Nicola Sturgeon is both smart and likeable.

That may be complete fiction of course,

indeed…

Cut and Paste attack 🙁

indeed…

Politics is all about perception. By a combination of the SNP being good at it and other parties being woefully bad at it, we’ve got to the stage where the other parties seem like secondary school debating clubs more interested in winning points.

all the more important to put the incumbent under proper scrutiny

[that works both sides of the border BTW]

bencooper – Member
It helps a lot that Nicola Sturgeon is both smart and likeable.

As long as she does not fall into the trap of trying hard to emulate the love thyself look at me I am a brilliant politician and everyone is frighten of me coz I have no life surrounded by yes people coz I am god sent Stooopid Angela Merkel spinster … then she should be fine. 😛

dont mind being told I am talking bollocks but it would be good to be backed up with something. I stand by my claims on UKIP/SNP. I will state strongly that NOT ALL SNP SUPPORTERS ARE UKIP SUPPORTERS, but there is a voting demographic in Scotland that is a bit racist/xenophobic and votes for the SNP because they re also anti UK. People that would vote for the likes of UKIP if Scottish indy wa not on the agenda. I know there are unionists that vote for UKIP also so it is a problem for us all.

So why didn’t they vote UKIP in the GE when indy wasn’t an issue?
Why did UKIP only get 1 MP here in the Euros? (24 in England)
Who were these racist/xenophobes voting for before the rise of the SNP? (which lets be honest it’s just since the 2015 GE that they have had such support.)
I have already posted the % of UKIP voters,are you are honestly saying people would switch to UKIP if they weren’t voting SNP? This is based on nothing more scientific than your opinion,any factual evidence?
While we are at it, I am anti-UK,as I don’t think it serves the part of the country I live in,by your logic,I am a racist/xenophobe.

Have we mentioned Hitler yet?

duckman

So why didn’t they vote UKIP in the GE when indy wasn’t an issue?
Why did UKIP only get 1 MP here in the Euros? (24 in England)
Who were these racist/xenophobes voting for before the rise of the SNP? (which lets be honest it’s just since the 2015 GE that they have had such support.)
I have already posted the % of UKIP voters,are you are honestly saying people would switch to UKIP if they weren’t voting SNP? This is based on nothing more scientific than your opinion,any factual evidence?
While we are at it, I am anti-UK,as I don’t think it serves the part of the country I live in,by your logic,I am a racist/xenophobe.

Are you capable of reading? Read the bit I specifically HIGHLIGHTED. Here it is ssslllooowwwwlllyyyy
I……..
AM……..
NOT……..
CALLING…..
YOU………
RACIST…….

There are racists/xenophobe supporters of all parties, even the SNP. Simply put, if there is a xenophobic pro uk anti immigration Scot they probably votes UKIP. If there an anti uk, anti immigration Scot I reckon they will probably vote SNP as I imagine getting out of the UK highest on the agenda. After that factors of immigration may be considered.

I am not saying anything that should come as a surprise. Although not one and the same having the SNP does still in my opinion mask what would be a higher figure of people supporting a more UKIP like party is Scotland.

And don’t even suggest that indy was off the agenda in the GE. It is still THE political consideration in Scotland and will affect GE results. Since you don’t think indy was not a factor in GE voting, do agree that the fact that SNP have 56 of 59 MP’s is mandate for another referendum.

what was the question again?

Why are the Welsh and Scots racist, I think. Could be wrong though!! 😉

Are you capable of reading? Read the bit I specifically HIGHLIGHTED. Here it is ssslllooowwwwlllyyyy
I……..
AM……..
NOT……..
CALLING…..
YOU………
RACIST…….

Is this one of those word games?
How do you get from patriot to racist by changing only one interpretation in fewer than 378 posts?

😀

A more interesting question for me, is – given the rise of Scottish Nationalism – why is there no corresponding rise in Welsh Nationalism?
I asked a friend about this, she grew up in mid South Wales in a small village where Welsh is spoken widely.
According to her, everyone locally either knew someone/was involved in the ‘house burning’ thing from a while ago and its now considered rather embarrassing, so its given Welsh Nationalism a rather poor image.
I’ve no idea personally, any Welsh folk care to offer a view?

Have we mentioned Hitler yet?

I almost did, but I think I got away with it.

I think the Welsh independence movement is where the Scottish one was 20-30 years ago. Whether they’ll go down the same road I don’t know.

Maybe it really has got something to do with sporting success. Wales are doing pretty well in the two main team competitions. Does that supply sufficient satisfaction such that demands for more meaningful aspects of nationhood are subjugated?

chewkw – Member
As long as she does not fall into the trap of trying hard to emulate the love thyself look at me I am a brilliant politician and everyone is frighten of me coz I have no life surrounded by yes people coz I am god sent Stooopid Angela Merkel spinster …

Spouse: Joachim Sauer (m. 1998), Ulrich Merkel (m. 1977–1982)

Married twice & still married to Joachim Sauer professor at the Humboldt University of Berlin. He is the husband of the Chancellor of Germany, Angela Merkel. that enough of a clue to her lack of being a spinster?

Maybe it really has got something to do with sporting success.

Could be something in this! Both the Scottish/English rugby and/or football sides are basically national embarresments. This could be why the Romans where so fond of entertaining the mobs, keeps them distracted.

Ah right,so lots of “in my opinions” and no actual evidence,despite talking about demographs. Oh,and no answer to the question of who they voted for before the rise of the SNP,maybe you missed that bit?

I overestimated you,more charity shop.

There are xenophobes/racists that vote for the SNP.

There you go. I refuse to back that up with any evidence.(You don’t deserve it.)

If you refute it your head is stuck up your arse.

Give us Harrods opinion then!!

They probably voted Labour. I have posed plenty of questions of which you fail to address any!

Go on duckman, there are people that vote for the SNP that are racist. Admit it, you know you want to. 😉

Tennis team’s not too bad though Piemonster
Murray, Murray, Reid

Excuse my ignorance but who is Gordon? Good luck to them all. Would be great to see Andy get his third major.

Just checked it out. Gordon is a wheelchair doubles finalist. Good luck.

A more interesting question for me, is – given the rise of Scottish Nationalism – why is there no corresponding rise in Welsh Nationalism?

Think it’s a combination of reasons.

The different histories – Scotland was a fairly modern nation at the time it became part of the union. Wales was absorbed into England much earlier, so has never had its own proper infrastructure or institutions.

Because of that, the Welsh language and culture has always played an important role in defining Welshness. And it’s why attacks on the language have been so damaging. The UK Government decided in an 1847 report that to ‘civilise’ Wales, the language needed to be removed.

The subsequent decline of Welsh has helped to create a divided country. The majority of people aren’t taught to speak Welsh, so are locked out of many things that help make the country. It means that, culturally, you don’t have much to grab hold of – it’s mostly sport, inflatable daffodils and…Tom Jones.

Linked to that is the lack of any real Welsh media. There has never been a truly national newspaper. There’s no national conversation – the news agenda is set by right wing London media. Less than a third of people can name our own First Minister.

Then there’s the spectacular failure of Plaid Cymru. No Alex Salmonds – instead a succession of nice but drab leaders, incapable of presenting a vibrant or coherent vision for Wales. They have completely failed to break the perception that it represents only Welsh speaking communities.

And geography. The fact that so much of the Welsh population lives so close to the border. That around one-in-five people in Wales are from England – including lots of UKIP types. And that north and south Wales is so divided by a lack of transport links.

Ach…Wales is just broken.

gordimhor – Member
Tennis team’s not too bad though Piemonster

I’m not really that aware of tennis tbh. It’s basically sport for the psuedo middle class oiks isnt it? Dull as **** is my lasting memory of watching tennis.

There you go. I refuse to back that up with any evidence.(You don’t deserve it.)

In other words you don’t have any,but allow me to make the question simpler for you. There have been pulses of immigration to Scotland relative to the population size since the early 70’s.More recently economic migrants as the EU expanded. Who were the xenophobic racists voting for in the 70’s ( Indians and Pakistanis) 80’s ( Bangladesh) and 90’s ( Africa,Eastern European and Middle East) or have they just got behind the SNP since 2014? I am sure that there are racists who voted SNP,but to suggest that they identify with the SNP is quite a leap. You are also forgetting the scenes in George Square afterwards with the victorious no supporters seig heiling away.So they are out there…just not voting SNP/yes.

Copa – that’s an interesting view, thank you. I wasn’t aware for example that the majority of the Welsh population lives near the border.
My friend lives in North Wales, his sons went to a Welsh speaking school and as a result are far more fluent in the language than he is – his English wife struggles!
How has the modern spread of teaching the language in school worked? Is there still a strong divide between the Welsh/non Welsh speaking populations?

There is also the question of £’s. If you look at the ONS data then Wales has a high proportion of public sector workers and doesn’t pay much into the UK pot from tax and has the lowest GDP in the U.K. If they went down the devo-max route a lot of those jobs would be pulled back to England and the subsidies would have to come direct from Europe plus their own currency if they were not allowed to join the euro. No oil or other natural resources apart from the landscape and tourism only gets you so far.
From a purely fiscal view Wales benefits from being part of the U.K. and would struggle with all out independence.

I would have liked to have seen how an independent Scotland would have fared with the plunging oil price and if they had the foresight to invest in renewables once they had thrown down the shackles. They could have show England how it’s done instead of the current governments blinkered energy policies

Copa – that’s an interesting view, thank you. I wasn’t aware for example that the majority of the Welsh population lives near the border.

They don’t. The majority of the Welsh population – 2.2m out of just over 3m – live along the M4 corridor, along the industrialised south.

Is there still a strong divide between the Welsh/non Welsh speaking populations?

No. My wife and her family speak Welsh. They come from the Llanelli area, less than 10 miles from where I was brought up in Welsh-free Swansea. Some places speak Welsh, others don’t. Everyone speaks English. I have never come across hostility because I don’t speak Welsh. (I do speak a bit, but so poorly that I could probably converse with an Inuit better!)

In response to BlightySmith, I think there’s an underestimation of the resourcefulness and the resources that can be found in Wales. Tourism is a healthy money spinner and unlikely to run out in the near future. In the short term, there is still a demand for coal, we could bump up the price of gold and there seem to be companies that are willing to invest in Wales http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-35432478 and there are already some significant employer there. Why do you consider that the Welsh won’t be competitive when winning major contracts in the future?

They don’t. The majority of the Welsh population – 2.2m out of just over 3m – live along the M4 corridor, along the industrialised south.

I was referring to the statistic that 90 percent of the Welsh population lives within 50 miles of the English border. It’s different to Scotland.

Why do you consider that the Welsh won’t be competitive when winning major contracts in the future?

Maybe they will? But why are they not an economic powerhouse now? The GDP is low and Wales is essentially subsidised by other uk/EU members, that’s not to say the books wouldn’t balance if they split from the uk but it doesn’t look like a a Catalonia/Spain type situation to me.

The argument then is that Wales hasn’t been particularly well governed as part of the UK so might be better standing alone.

I do belive Wales is politicaly neglected by Westminster and often considered as an afterthought.. Things seem a bit better now there is more local political control but it’s also shifted the problem slightly.. As in Cardiff seems to get all the attention and investment.. A bit like London is to England I’d guess.