Why are Scottish and Welsh folk so patriotic ?

why ?

Can’t speak for Wales but Scotland’s pretty good, that’s why. Always seems weird to me that folks elsewhere are so quick to knock the place they were born. “This country’s gone to the dogs” “We’ll make it great again”. Britain’s a great place to live, we’re lucky, celebrate it!

Why not? Aren’t the English are equally patriotic about England (as opposed to the UK)?
What’s wrong with being patriotic?

Are English folk not? Is not the whole anti Europe, general xenophobia vibe that we hear so much about not just a feeling that the English are superior to others? 😀

Scotland is awesome. Being Scottish is totes amazeballs. Despite our lighthearted internal squabbles and differences we’re all Scottish together. All the time, not just when the football is on.

English people don’t understand because they’re all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours. Scousers hate the Mancs. Geordies hate Mackems. Yorkshiremen hate everyone. Everyone hates Londoners.

Lots to be proud of in terms of cultural heritage. As above why should we not be proud?

I think you’ll generally find any nation that has bigger neighbours tends to be patriotic, especially if at times they are dominated by the neighbour. Thinking e.g. foreigners not understanding that we aren’t “English”.

Plus a long, long history of bitter oppression might have something to do with it…

Plus a long, long history of bitter oppression might have something to do with it…

Plus a long, long history of imagined bitter oppression might have something to do with it…

There you go, fixed that for you. And yes, I’m Scottish too.

England is ranked least patriotic nation in Europe, below Germany and France. Scotland was ranked a close 2nd, behind The Netherlands and just in front of Wales and Italy. This was a self ranking survey where participants scored themselves on a scale 1-10.

Maybe the low scores for some of the countries can be tied to the links to far right extremists. E.g the use of the national flag by these types of groups put ordinary people off the idea through fear of being associated with them.

This.
Go to Canada and there are flags everywhere. Made in Canada emblazoned everywhere and they even have their own version of the McDonalds Golden Arches with a wee Maple Leaf. They are absolutely desperate to ensure that you know you’re not in the USA.

Scotland is awesome. Being Scottish is totes amazeballs. Despite our lighthearted internal squabbles and differences we’re all Scottish together. All the time, not just when the football is on.

Yeah, cos people from Edinburgh just love Glaswegians. Come to think of it Celitic supporters adore those who support Rangers.
The short answer is because that is how the Scots have been brought up. In England, nationalism is a dirty word, by and large, as an Englishman living in Scotland it is one of the most obvious differences between the two countries. I must admit, believing that a certain country is great, just because you were born there has always seemed massively egocentric, but there y’go.

Yeah, apparently 24% of english people thing the st george’s cross is a racist symbol, it’s a very poisoned brand. Which is bizarre- skinheads, hooligans, we’re talking about a tiny fraction of the population, how does that come to represent so much? Why focus on the negative? But I guess it’s a tiny, active fraction vs a large passive fraction. Course, the nation isn’t the flag but it’s a strong symbol, we can fly ours without worrying whether that dude over there thinks we’re racists.

Orwell talked a lot of pish about nationalism vs patriotism but there’s a wee bit of truth in it, a lot of english-centred nationalism/patriotism has been about power- beating other people at wars, pride in the empire, very expansive and power focused. And if that’s key to your patriotism, it must suck when it stops. The US’s still on a high with that one.

(I’m sure Scots would like a go at that if we could but we’ve mostly focused on battling age old enemies, the scots. We still get excited about that time we conquered some goalposts)

An excellent question, and one that I have had to give a lot of thought to as a ‘immigrant’ to Wales.

Funny enough, for all that Wales has a distinct identity, and unabashedly flies the flag on every building possible, it is also the most welcoming and inclusive place I have been in the UK (other than London).

One of the reasons – I think – is that, as young as the country feels, it also has a sense of confidence about itself that means strangers present no threat. By contrast, in England, where it sometimes seems tantamount being a member of the BNP to fly either the Union flag or the Cross of St George, I sense a crisis of confidence that there even is an English identity, let alone one that can confidently welcome in others.

As a result, England ends up being afraid of any expressions of patriotism for fear of being exclusive, ambivalent to the idea of an English identity at all, and ultimately, less able to engage with the challenge of ‘other’.

Then again, I may be wrong. But I think there is at least some truth to what I say.

drovercycles » I think you’ll generally find any nation that has bigger neighbours tends to be patriotic, especially if at times they are dominated by the neighbour.

This.
Go to Canada and there are flags everywhere. Made in Canada emblazoned everywhere and they even have their own version of the McDonalds Golden Arches with a wee Maple Leaf. They are absolutely desperate to ensure that you know you’re not in the USA.[/quote]

Maybe, but how would that then explain the patriotism of the USA?

Plus a long, long history of bitter oppression might have something to do with it…

Having a pop at us because they can’t get their tongue around our place names isn’t oppression. That comes from within.

They have the English to define themselves in opposition to.

Wales is Ace. We have all the best trail centres 😀

Plus we can spell stuff how WE want to … Tacsi, Ambwlance, Stopio…etc 😀

Its the sense of being the other side of a one way mirror when you’re next door to a larger, culturally dominant neighbour. From your side of the mirror see everything that goes on in England clearly, when England looks at the mirror it only sees its only idea of its neighbours reflected back. Theres something galvanising for those neighbours that comes from being hidden in plain sight.

That. And the narcissism of small differences.

English people don’t understand because they’re all too busy looking down on their regional English neighbours. Scousers hate the Mancs. Geordies hate Mackems. Yorkshiremen hate everyone. Everyone hates Londoners.

Especially the scottish.

I do find the overt nationalism of the regions (scotland, wales, yorkshire etc) quite endearing.
Not sure why they wear it on their sleeve so much though?

As a result, England ends up being afraid of any expressions of patriotism for fear of being exclusive, ambivalent to the idea of an English identity at all, and ultimately, less able to engage with the challenge of ‘other’.

Havent a clue what you are trying to say, try reading a bit of Orwell on the English

I personally think the English are just weird.

To be clear I don’t think the Celtic nations have suffered oppression in living memory. But go back 100 years, 200 years, 500 years…

It happened. It goes some way to explaining passions that still exist, IMHO.

I do find the overt nationalism of the regions (scotland, wales, yorkshire etc) quite endearing.
Not sure why they wear it on their sleeve so much though?

I think you are confusing Scotland and Wales with the nine regions of England.

I do find the overt nationalism patriotism of the regions (scotland, wales, yorkshire etc) quite endearing.
Not sure why they wear it on their sleeve so much though?

Funny how one word can change the meaning, isn’t it? Often confused, but don’t worry I knew you meant patriotism.

I am watching you lot Freedoommm folks … 😛

I just wanted to include gods own country, birthplace of Boycott , the chuckle brothers and other things of greatness. 😐

There isn’t just one type of nationalism though innit. Scottish Welsh etc is civic ie inclusive nationalism, whereas the English variety is just nasty.

Yeah, cos people from Edinburgh just love Glaswegians.

Always irked me this statement when it’s made. Sure there’ll some Edinburgh folk disliking Glaswegians and vice versa. But not everyone. I’m born and live in Edinburgh and think Glasgow is awesome. Bloody huge place as well compared to Edinburgh. Lots of very cool bars and great places to eat. My only complaint is I don’t go through there nearly enough.

It’s just an inferiority complex, chip on shoulder, call it what you wish, but Scotland and Wales simply hate the English as that sort of narrow minded xenophobic “hate” appears permissible when you dress it up as a “regional nationality”.

The truth is, the English don’t really have the counter distinction, we view them as one might an annoying little sister. We even quite like them, and would cheer for them in sports.And that’s what makes the Scots and Welsh so mad, that the English view them far more paternally, and that largely, the hate is one way traffic. It makes them feel patronised, peevish, and powerless, that they can’t make the English despise them, no matter how badly they try to make us.

The fact of the matter is that to be patriotic, you have to have a selective mindset. Just concentrate on all the positives and ignore all the negatives and you are there. You can be proud of your country. Everyone in Scotland loves each other. What’s sectarianism?

National identity in the UK is a horribly fuzzy thing. It has been complicated by the, largely succesful, attempt to create an all encompassing Britishness.

Personally, I think all the nations have suffered – including England, which has seen Englishness rebranded into a toxic form of Britishness.

Scotland has started to unravel the mess and is moving off in its own direction.

Wales, meanwhile, could be viewed as one of the least patriotic countries in the world.

How many countries have a population which views the prospect of running its own affairs as scary and absurd? Even the Welsh party created to campaign for independence, no longer dares mention it.

How many countries don’t have any real kind of national media for the majority of its population? Don’t teach the majority of its children to speak the country’s language or about its history?

It’s likely that UKIP, an English nationalist party who recently campaigned for the abolition of the Welsh Assembly, will soon become the third largest party in Wales.

I’m afraid that the “chip” is actually on the shoulders of some English people who have been led to believe that they are hated.

Inferiority? Dinnae think so. I think its you jujuuuk being patronising.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_inventions_and_discoveries

We invented the bike!

Jujuuk68 – Member

It’s just an inferiority complex, chip on shoulder, call it what you wish, but Scotland and Wales simply hate the English as that sort of narrow minded xenophobic “hate” appears permissible when you dress it up as a “regional nationality”.

The truth is, the English don’t really have the counter distinction, we view them as one might an annoying little sister. We even quite like them, and would cheer for them in sports.And that’s what makes the Scots and Welsh so mad, that the English view them far more paternally, and that largely, the hate is one way traffic. It makes them feel patronised, peevish, and powerless, that they can’t make the English despise them, no matter how badly they try to make us.

That’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever read. Absolute preposterous.

I think if you had been a resident of Capel Celyn you might disagree that there had been no oppression in the last 100 years. The same continues today in the context of major energy projects where the unaccountable, in Wales, English energy secretary can impose these projects irrespective of local opinion, that’s no more than colonialism.

The below nails it for me.

CYNroxqWsAAQ7fZ by jamesanderson2010[/url], on Flickr

Too many people read too many dodgy tabloids and news articles.
I’m Welsh, but I consider myself British.. With Welsh ancestorie.

It gets my back up a bit when people bang on about bull dogs and the George cross… We are not a religious people, or at least I’d hope we aren’t.

In other news, you English are gonna get stuffed by Wales in the six nations!

steveoath – Member

We invented the bike!

And the english invented the bike forum. We win this round.

OK but actually, it’s interesting this. Cliche scottish boast- we invented everything. The industrial revolution, chicken tikka masala, penicillin and painkillers, cloning, glorious failure, and the ****ing rap battle.

Cliche english boast- 2 world wars and 1 world cup, doo dah.

For whatever reason, a big part of how we define ourselves is how we’ve contributed to the wider world rather than local/national triumphs. We’re a suburb of a little island but everyone knows the scots. We never conquered the world but we were the workshop of the empire. It’s a more generally positive bounce than “we kicked your heads in”- “You couldnae have done it without us”. The things that England sees as her greatest successes were all massive, but they’re maybe less feelgood.

Eh, and lets just get it said, the english are well known for misappropriating britishness. That’s why none of them think it’s weird that english-only matters are debated in the british parliament, but do think it’s weird for scots to vote in it, for example. And this, as well as being a pain in the arse, just naturally robs them of a clear identity of their own. The Welsh and Scots know exactly who they are and where the border is- what’s british and what’s welsh and what’s scottish and what’s english. The english are more diffuse. The irish, well, I’m not lighting that touchpaper.

No need to feel patriotic or nationalistic. I love accessing the highlands for example but feel no sense that they belong to me or fellow Scots. I know my passport says UK and NI, but I feel no more British than Scottish. I feel no more linked to people in Scotland than elsewhere. Yes there are differences between people but also similarities. To me drawing a line on a map to determine what ties you to someone else seems silly. I may feel closer social ties to someone that likes drum and bass music from France than someone born in Scotland that thinks Braveheart is a documentary.
Many people I speak to that draw national boundaries with distinction on a map are quick to state that all the people in “their” country think differently to country next door who all think the same.

Welsh nationalism is generally far more cuddly than the Scottish variant. Yes the Welsh hate the English but only for the length of the match, whereas some in Scotland manage to hate the English their entire life.

Funny isn’t it that as the SNP support has risen, Scottish sport has fallen to the point where it is way behind Wales. I still can’t believe the poor quality of footballers now produced in Scotland considering their history.

i wasn’t going to bite, but there’s some utter tosh being expressed on here

It’s just an inferiority complex, chip on shoulder, call it what you wish, but Scotland and Wales simply hate the English as that sort of narrow minded xenophobic “hate” appears permissible when you dress it up as a “regional nationality”.

what a sack of balls. i can’t speak for the whole of the country, but everyone i know from wales (myself, family, friends etc) supposed hatred of the English goes as far enjoying regularly beating you at rugby in an age old sporting rivalry and some friendly banter mocking / playing up to each others national stereo types on a night down the pub

you can be proud of your roots / country / national identity without having to have a focus of ‘hate’ to coalesce around

How many countries don’t have any kind of national media for the majority of its population? Don’t teach the majority of its children to speak the country’s language or about its history?

although a far less contentious point, still incorrect – BBC wales, S4C, Western Mail, Wales on Sunday. it’s also required by law for all schools in wales to teach kids welsh up to the age of 16

How many countries in the world have a population which views the prospect of running its own affairs as scary and absurd? Even the Welsh party created to campaign for independence, no longer dares mention it.

imho i think this is just more of an acceptance of reality that wales no longer has the industry or natural resources to have the economic security to be a fully independent country.

that an all the bloody immigrants coming over here, taking our jobs – yes i’m looking at you, the 20% of the population who are english living in wales *tongue firmly in cheek*

Country’s that have been violated by the English seem patriotic. England just thinks they are entitled to everything
So they are the least patriotic 😉

It’s just an inferiority complex, chip on shoulder, call it what you wish, but Scotland and Wales simply hate the English as that sort of narrow minded xenophobic “hate” appears permissible when you dress it up as a “regional nationality”.

Hmmm, not at all – if anyone has a chip on their shoulder i feel it is brought into conversation by those who have no sense of personal national identity, perhaps a more in-depth summation would involve at the very least a brief history lesson but i surmise a web forum is no place to bring forth such a discussion – I can only speak from my personal experience so it is entirely unquantifiable (but equally valid) in this instance.

I used to have no great affinity nor love for my nation when growing up but on travelling the world i have come to realise that what i have as a birthright is something to be treasured, for sure we, as a nation, participated in some truly horrific actions over the years – I’m speaking about the scottish involvement in slavery as a point here but overall we seem to be more favourably looked upon over our our english counterparts.

When i was 16 in my summer holidays between 4th/5th year back in 1998 my aunt (needless to say an artist who had graduated from the glasgow school in the late 60’s) took me to afghanistan where she traveled extensively on a vespa in the early 70’s, i met nothing but admiration for the scots people but when the subject of england came up there was much angst and outpouring of grievances, similar when i went to stay with relatives in Zimbabwe in 1994 for almost a year, my scots accent was welcomed everywhere and much was made of it to the point i ended up manager of the Explorers bar in Victoria Falls for the unfortunately few months i spent in the country, again when i went to Turkey in 1998 for a fortnights holiday and decided to stay for 6 months touring about on a 50cc scooter i met nothing but the utmost admiration and the most amazing hospitality for myself/our nation and my accent was yet again commented on favourably – similar yet again when i went to India for 6 months in 2001 with my then GF – we toured about on a an Enfield and travelled quite a fair bit including up into inhospitable areas in Kashmir and brief forays across the border into Pakistan and when my accent was heard i yet again encountered nothing but hospitality despite being in places we clearly should not have been.

I did not have an appreciation for my scottish birthright before i started travelling (holidaying if i’m being entirely honest) but due to what i have experienced i have come to realise that i should be appreciative of what i am – make of that what you will

This has led me to have a greater understanding of the scots influence and impact on the world around us and i’m very proud to consider myself Scottish/from Scotland, rather than British to this day.