who actually came up with the first faster than sound aircraft?

have been thinking about this today. now i know america claims it came up with the idea for the swept back wings/aileron-tail rudders e.t.c,but i remember watching a documentary about this very issue (was on channel 4 i think a while back).

a group of british aeronautical engineers actually came up with the swept back wings/tail/aileron rudders e.t.c some years before (and they had the documents to prove it),just that the british government didn’t want to finance a full scale aircraft (then the american military came over pretending to want to help/british firm give over the documents e.t.c,america goes off and claims it for their own e.t.c. now i may have not stated the program properly (but that was the gist of what i took from the doc.

also the germans could stake some claim also with the V2 rocket.

what do you think about this?

Sound barrier…

IIRC there are swept wing and delta wing designs from Cranfield & Farnborough from the late twenties… There was also a pre world war 1 swept wing biplane so stable the pilot got out and walked along the wing in flight to demonstrate it.

america goes off and claims it for their own

You’re saying the US ripped off the swept wing design for their supersonic plane?

Bell X-1 didn’t have swept wings though.

i may have got that fact wrong i admit molegrips.

i stand by the tail ailerons/rudder design though.

am sort of right after reading wikipedia about what i said,but got some wrong also.

Swept wings were actively developed by Germany during the Second World War – the Me262 jet fighter had swept wings.

I recall that the British came up with the idea of an all-moving tail plane while working on supersonic flight but the US got the first supersonic (level & in control) flight, possibly having “borrowed” this innovation.

Just read the wiki link though, seems there was a British M.52 model that looks remarkably like the X1.

More of a case of the Bell looking remarkably like the M52. The M52 also used an air breathing turbojet engine instead of a rocket engine that the Bell used, which is cheating in my book, not really an aircraft, more of a rocket with a man in it.

I think the documentary says (if its the one I’ve seen) we were playing around with all moving tailplanes on modified Spitfires or some other propeller powered WW2 fighter, after recognising early on that it was the key to maintaining control as you break through the sound barrier and beyond.

I think the Answer to your question is the USA

although they may have had help on the way

I don’t think the V2 really counts as a plane or manned

If the odd plane broke the sound barrier then that’s not quite the same as coming up with a faster than sound aircarft

Wasn’t it Charlie Kelly?

Iirc the supermarine swift had a good crack and supposedly did but it was never confirmed other than the big bangs in a dive that was 1956

a group of british aeronautical engineers actually came up with the swept back wings/tail/aileron rudders e.t.c some years before (and they had the documents to prove it),just that the british government didn’t want to finance a full scale aircraft (then the american military came over pretending to want to help/british firm give over the documents e.t.c,america goes off and claims it for their own e.t.c. now i may have not stated the program properly (but that was the gist of what i took from the doc

That would be Dennis Bancroft (a fine engineers name if ever there was one) and the Miles M52. Apparently we were going to share what we knew with the yanks, so sent the, all the info, then they were to do the same. Seems their stuff got lost in the post though…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_M.52

Me163 Komet – very fast, very dangerous (just not to the enemy).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_163_Komet

not sure on the US side but I thought the English Electric Lightning was the first production supersonic plane

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/lightning/history.php

It’s a bit of a hard one to call really. The only thing we can say with reasonable certainty is that the Americans were behind the curve in terms of their own research. Both the UK and German aeronautical industries had conducted some advanced research and modelling for transonic and supersonic flight. Specifically the use of swept and delta wings as well as the use of an all moving tailplane rather elevators which proved fundamental were all well-established. The last real American aerodynamic development pre-supersonic flight was the laminar flow wing which was used on later WW2 aircraft. We did hand over our research to the U.S. and none was returned contrary to the agreement… There are also some claims that the speed of sound had been exceeded pre-Yeager by at least one ME262 and another ME163 pilot during the war and perhaps by others in piston-engined aircraft in dives too.

antigee – Member

not sure on the US side but I thought the English Electric Lightning was the first production supersonic plane

First super-cruiser I think. All depends how you categorise things, though, supersonic on the flat or dive etc.

jamj1974 – Member

There are also some claims that the speed of sound had been exceeded pre-Yeager by at least one ME262 and another ME163 pilot during the war and perhaps by others in piston-engined aircraft in dives too.

I’ve got a great book by Christopher Olebar (or similar) called The Concorde Story and I’m sure there’s a bit in there about the run up to supersonic flight.
I find it amazing that propeller driven Spitfires were able to go to such high mach numbers. I can’t remember whether one actually went supersonic or whether they only got to the transonic stage (I think they did get them to go supersonic). I seem to remember some info about the control surfaces being all but useless close to the speed of sound and quite a few pilots losing their lives.

This book:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Concorde-Story-Ten-Years-in-Service-By-Christopher-Orlebar-/300888617655?_trksid=p2054897.l4275#ht_1067wt_1399

I thoroughly recommend it at that price!

There is an interview out there with Eric brown talking about this, he is certain the Brit m62 would have done it 1st. The design especially the all moving tail planes where so far ahead of everyone else but funding was cancelled just as it went into the flying model stage. The fact The US “stole” the idea and got the record annoyed him quite a bit.

Plenty of planes went supersonic it’s just that Yeager was the 1st to make it back to tell the story;)

Wasn’t it Charlie Kelly?

😀

IIRC. I think someone dived a Spitfire to Mach 0.9 but it ripped the prop off!

I think I’ll pick that book up Stumpy01!

not sure on the US side but I thought the English Electric Lightning was the first production supersonic plane

Not quite…the Saab Draken, Mig-19 and F-100 stole a march. There’s been a lot of speculation about early jet aircraft and late era piston engined fighters breaking the sound-barrier. The fastest verified piston engine speed that I’ve heard of is a specially modified Spitfire MkIX, with an all moving tail and a clutch gear on the prop which supposedly reached mach 0.92.