When was the "us and them" split made?

I don’t think it’s fair to single him out on this. The ‘wider society’ doesn’t mean anything as far as I can see. People might pretend it does, but like recycling – it’s just virtue-signalling. They’d probably burn it if no one was looking.

Individuals are what make a society, if individuals don’t change then society needs to force the change.
As for the phrase of the moment it seems to get heavily overused to denegrate people who are trying to do the right thing. Personally I recycle because it’s not only the right thing to do but it makes a huge amount of sense when you consider resoures and landfill.

Then the final thing that will encourage behavioural changes is taxation, the tool for people to stubborn to change.

LOL 1% a month in a bank, those kinds of banks are for the clueless.

I assume you aren’t thinking straight.

You can invest with pretty low risk and make 5 percent average yearly returns. Top investment managers will net you 15 percent average yearly returns

Only if you manage to pick the best ones each year, no-one can sustain that – where are you putting you’re money now so I can check on your progress. 2016 was very good of course due to the fall in the pound – anyone who doesn’t hold equity investments really missed out there.

no-one can sustain that – where are you putting you’re money now so I can check on your progress.

Sure you’ll make losses some years and admittedly 15 percent is really pushing it – but even the modest gains aren’t to be sniffed at.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/investing/article-2958803/Cash-stocks-property-best-returns-past-30-years.html

It’s all about the long term…and given the housing bubble and how politically exposed that market is…I’d be steering my money away from property investment…unless I was interested in quick cash.

But I guess that could be my pessimism talking – that and I don’t see why it’s socially acceptable to **** the housing market in the sake of a bit more return, in comparison to investing in the markets which I find a whole lot less offensive – at least that money is helping to drive the economy and not the macro economic equivalent of a big fat leech.

I choose not to own a property to rent out as far too much effort involved and I have a decent chunk of capital in my own house, so yes I’ve put my money on the stock market and done well enough over the last 20 years. A bit wary of how things will go now but I’ve stuck with it through the bad times unlike some who get scared off then miss out on the recovery – such as the last 12 months when FTSE went up 27.5%.

Precisely, my wife tells me her colleagues get a little irritated by the people who ring up every week/month to ask why they’ve lot .0X percent – when you should be thinking long term.

such as the last 12 months when FTSE went up 27.5%.

Yeah, if you stick around you can make a good bit of money. As long as you have a set amount that you are willing to lose to make long term gain, then you can just sell off any rare gains like that, leaving in what you would have had – had that gain not occurred and thus play safe with your profits – not get too greedy and have a tidy little amount for a holiday or a new bike.

But most of it’s over my head, I’m a biologist, I try to show some interest in her line of work – but I mostly zone out.

at least that money is helping to drive the economy and not the macro economic equivalent of a big fat leech.

😆

I don’t see how it’s funny to be honest, the increasing amount of renters will lead to spiking social care costs as people will have less capital in property to pay for their ridiculously long lives. What are we going to do with 115 year old renters in 2055?

Where as investing in the right markets drives growth and innovation….

If we want to move to an economy that can cope with automation over the next 25-30 years, where creativity, entrepreneurship and cottage industries are fostered – then surely we need a population that feels stable enough to take these risks – and that means still being able to keep a roof over your head if things go tits up. That requires a much higher supply of houses to achieve.

Yeah I agree. It was the way you put it 😀

then surely we need a population that feels stable enough to take these risks – and that means still being able to keep a roof over your head if things go tits up.

Indeed.

The conspiracy theorist in me sometimes thinks that this whole situation has been engineered to keep the young docile and diverted… No more rave-scenes etc – everyone’s saving for a deposit.

Hah yeah….I dislike it when people accuse the bankers of being the leeches….it’s all the **** bottom feeders that would trample over their 90 year old grandmother to not lose 5 percent on their homes, that are.

The conspiracy theorist in me sometimes thinks that this whole situation has been engineered to keep the young docile and diverted… No more rave-scenes etc – everyone’s saving for a deposit.

The optimist in me hopes that the tech industries notice and pressure for change, the executives in these newer companies seem more liberal and will hopefully see the value of a more “playful” society.

Correct again.

The conspiracy theorist in me sometimes thinks that this whole situation has been engineered to keep the young docile and diverted… No more rave-scenes etc – everyone’s saving for a deposit.

Where as what transpires is an ah F it approach where the chance of affording a house steadlily declines to the point your too old to get a mortgage 😉 Leading to people enjoying what they can at the time and not worrying about the future. Plan A might be just to encourage some of you oldies to shuffle off, watch out for the euthenasia bills coming

I wonder if chris2lou might ever want to come back perhaps that’s why he keeps his house in the UK.have you ever tried to reach enter the UK property market after living almost anywhere else on the planet where houses cost less and are growth is less each year

Maybe I should sell up since I live in my second home half the year (I work in Angola)

Nah don’t think so.

I see why Chris has kept his house and if you can’t see that then your more blinkered than I thought.

Oh and what mikewsmith says about current cardboard box housing not last time is true. My dad’s done stints as a project management contractor for most of the big Scottish builders -and been escorted off a few for refusing to sign off on shoddy buildings….. They are built to last the 10year guarantee and not alot more.

There are some builders building properly but they are generally more expensive how ever all that means is that the shoddy lot put their prices up. It’s very hard to tell who’s building a decent house and who’s out to extract the urine massively.

and that means still being able to keep a roof over your head if things go tits up

Now there’s an idea 🙄

I think another change is that my grandparents didn’t live as long after retirement than people do now. That means a healthy estate to pass down to my parents. My parents will then have a much more comfortable retirement than I might as they will probably live a lot longer, using their estate to pay for caring needs. I’m not expecting to get the windfall my parents did.

we are keeping the uk one and going to rent it .

And there you have one of the causes of the crisis. You know we have a major housing crisis in the UK – why don’t you sell it to someone who wants somewhere secure to bring their kids up? [/quote]

Stamp Duty is a real dissinsentive to selling up, you don’t get the money back when you sell, so you may as well keep the property and sweat the asset. If they refunded stamp Duty when you sold, that might encourage people to sell up.

Every time this thread (or a variant of it) pops I double check rightmove.com to make sure that you can still buy a flat in my town for less than the list price of a Ford Focus.

Checks……..Yep…….One bedroom Flat for sale within a mile of my house for £17,000.

Three minute walk to the train station, less than an hour’s commute to either Glasgow or Edinburgh.

I’ve been waiting for this “Bubble” for twenty odd years. It hasn’t arrived yet.

Three minute walk to the train station, less than an hour’s commute to either Glasgow or Edinburgh.

By less than an hour do you mean 59 mins to the central station, then a walk from there?
So 3hrs a day commute to decent jobs?

By less than an hour do you mean 59 mins to the central station, then a walk from there?
So 3hrs a day commute to decent jobs?

No, I mean that I can drive my car ( which potentially could cost more than my house) to pretty much anywhere in the Central Belt of Scotland and arrive at my destination within an hour or less.

If I was getting the train to the City centres It takes about 35 mins either direction to city centre stations.

Commuting times hare are considerably less than I’ve heard reported in most other major UK cities.

Not bad, so why the depressed house prices? It’s a rarity try looking in a few other places

Not bad, so why the depressed house prices?

Seems odd to outsiders that all the residents are related 🙄

Not bad, so why the depressed house prices?

There are some proper shitholes between Glasgow and Edinburgh, so might be one of those.

It does, but why should those that saved and worked hard have a mass sell-off of assets to flood the market and suit those waiting in the wings?

I think these vast windfalls are already bookmarked to pay for nursing homes and NHS geriatric care (if and when the politicians get their heads out of the sand).

It’s a rarity try looking in a few other places

It’s because the town is, in the main, a post industrial shithole.
It is however, MY Shithole as I was born and brought up there.

But, then again it’s still considerably less grim than most commuter towns that I’ve visited anywhere else in the UK.

I can ride out of my door and 10 minutes later I can be in the Clyde Valley paddling in the river.

I live in a detached Victorian 7 bedroom sandstone villa with a quarter of an acre of garden. I bought it in two halves (it had been split into upper and lower flats) and paid £125000 in total for it.

I live in a nice street, filled with nice houses occupied by nice people.
Why would I want to live anywhere else?

Why would I want to live anywhere else?

Works well for you, but if doesn’t help if you don’t want post industrial shithole miles from work.
It still doesn’t change the fact that there is a massive housing problem in the UK as a whole

Which town?

paid 60K for a 2 bed semi in 2002, worth just under double that but the price has been at that for a number of years. Was 95% mortgage, could get one now if I was in the job of my choice with a combined income of 42k, would get a 120k loan with a 10% deposit for about 530 a month. Our first mortgage payments were £330 a month, although we now pay £485 as we have borrowed against the equity a couple of times.

Why would I want to live anywhere else?

Why would I?

Why would I?

Because Cardiff ? 😉

^ fascinating link Stoner.[/I]

Except it talks of needing a +10% back into 1988, rubbish.

I bought my first place with 100% mortgage in 1985 and was on my 3rd by 1988 – 5% was fine, and even in 2001 when we bought the one before our current place.

FWIW it’s all about location. In 1984 I could barely afford the rent in a houseshare down south. I then moved to Hull and bought a modern 2-bed flat for £21k, old 2-bed terraces were available for less than £10k.

My eldest has just bought near Knottingley, paid £120k for a 2-bed new build with garage – mortgage rate is decent (10% deposit) but the fees were almost as much.

I’ve considered moving somewhere far-flung like Scotland. But travel time would be pretty onerous even if my work do pay for it.

Just checked, and I could still buy a 2 bed house in LS28 for today prices with my wife for our combined salary in 2000 not adjusted for inflation,,, as we did in 2000.

I didn’t particularly want to live there at that time, but it was a location we came up with based on all the compromises that ftbers have to make today.

As per stoners post, house price affordability is a function of interest rates and the price paid + LTV. It seems to me that the big change has been in LTV values as I managed to pull together 5% deposit from savings, loans and credit cards.

My wife bought a 2 bed flat in a not very nice part of SE London in the late 1990s for £50k. Her mate told her yesterday that her old place just sold for £440k. Alas, she moved out some years ago. I know it’s London but by any standards it’s insane. I’ve no idea how the average punter manages to buy any more. Even trying to save for a deposit is more difficult due to the miniscule interest rate and crippling rental costs. It’s very very tough and I can see why people despair and, nightmare of nightmares, move back in with their parents.

I’ve no idea how the average punter manages to buy any more.

Simple answer to that – average punters aren’t. Median London salary c£35k, 2-bed flat in Zone 3 £425k+

Only those with massive help from parents (average FTB deposit is c£90k in London) or those earning well above average salaries are buying. There’s only so many people like that which is why transaction numbers are down c45% YOY and several places I know in Crystal Palace which were on the market 18 months ago are still unsold or have been taken off the market – no buyers at current prices. Foxtons share price collapsing tells you that transaction volumes have cratered too.

My South London cycling club has lost 6 members in the last year – mainly because we can’t afford to live there any more, and based on the amount of Rapha amongst members we’re not low earners generally speaking!

It’ll straighten out eventually – demand for property isn’t price inelastic – which will be pretty painful for anyone who bought in the last few years – mainly forced to by sky high rents and fear of missing out.

I was first looking for a house back in 1999. You could have a decent sized terrace in Scarborough for 40k but I decided to rent. Bawls.

I moved back home 2 years later and similar sized houses were up to about 50/60k. At the time prices were going up every month and by the time I bought my first house a year or so later I had to pay 75k. Kept that 3 or 4 years and sold for 125k which seemed to be the standard price for a decent sized terrace at the time. They went up a bit more but then the crash happened so the standard terrace is around 125/30k now.

Had I bought in 1999 I’d be mortgage free by now but I missed the boat. There’s the split imo.

From the FT story this evening that prices are still, apparently, rising:

Spring 5 hours ago
No mention of volumes! 

I’m told there’s no supply so are these figures must be based on a false or extremely restricted market. Clarity needed.

As usual the FT yahooing the market. No relation with the advertising dollars they receive for the Property Section I presume….

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Bananalyst 4 hours ago

@Spring Agreed. Nearly all the properties I’ve been looking at in London have been “open to an offer” according to the agent. It’s a buyers market with cheap financing, how often can that happen?

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Artemesia 3 hours ago

@Spring 

What is happening is that greater and greater chunks of London are becoming unaffordable and there are few transactions in those areas- only foreigners with dollars can buy. Further out and downmarket there are still some being bought with bank of mum and dad etc and prices are still rising. Soon there will be no transactions there either. 

It is a huge (or should I say ‘uge?) bubble which is bursting in slow motion because there is no single big trigger. Yet.    

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/B 3 hours ago
@Artemesia @Spring and when it does burst? A week later: FT – nobody saw it coming. 2008 redux.

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Spring 3 hours ago
@Artemesia Agreed. No volumes suggests that someone is wrong and the market is not in equilibrium. The question is whether it’s the seller or the buyer who’s deluded. 

2-3% gross yield looks way out of whack to me for an illiquid asset that has a large cost of carry. I reckon you need 6%+ yield to justify buying a house so I won’t give you too many guesses which side it is that’s deluding itself.

I know in Crystal Palace which were on the market 18 months ago are still unsold or have been taken off the market – no buyers at current prices

Flat below me sold the week of brexit for £320k after 2 weeks on the market* to say there are no buyers is ridiculous, I too know the market round here and the 500k and up do not move as fast, anything ‘reasonable’ will sell. People are moving here because they can’t afford dulwich or streatham as believe it or not here is ‘value’ round here. Overpriced stuff that’s too close to the badlands of Anerly or a long walk to the triangle/stations/civilisation will take longer.

That said I couldn’t afford to move here now.

*was on Location,location,location and bought by a lawyer. The ‘lower earners are being priced out both in buying and renting. I know for a fact that 2 flats here were £600pm for a long time and the tenets left when it suddenly jumped to £800. It’s now £1100.

@brooess. You Dulwich Paragon then? Me and my wife are both still second claim members and moved from Sydenham Hill to North Wales nearly four years ago with no regrets.

Judging by the amount of building going up around 9 Elms, Vauxhall and Battersea, the market for flats in London doesn’t appear to be cooling – I expect most of it is overseas investors attracted by devalued £!
We stretched ourselves to the max when we bought our first house for 1990 with 100% mortgage – it recently sold for north of 5x what we paid. I couldn’t afford to buy my current house now based on my earnings – luckily paid the mortgage off last year. Talking to work colleagues in their 30s who are trying hard to raise a deposit. Successive Governments kow-towing to property developers restricting builds, failure to invest in quality social housing and pensioners cashing in pensions to buy-to-let, effectively locking-out the market.

In London, I reckon anyone currently in their 20s is in a pickle. Like some of the other posters above, I live in SE London in an area that used to be relatively cheap.

A 4 bed house round here is now 1.25m.

Our previous place doubled in value between 2007 and 2015. Takes 2 good salaries to cover current mortgage.

The good news is that all this will finally sort out the enormous London vs everywhere else gap. Boom times ahead for Manchester, Bristol, Glasgow etc.

“Reading a lot of threads which explain how hard it is for younger people to get on the housing ladder”

Its a media/government fantasy that only young people can’t get on the ladder. I know of at least 3 people who are 40+ who cannot afford to buy any property in my city/area around it and none of them can afford the rents of anything other than a single room bedsit. They have no chance of ever having homes despite being reliable long term workers. The house and rent prices are just too high here for anyone on an average single wage.

Having a home in this area is dependent on having a romantic partner or long term reliable house mate who will risk buying with you or who will split rent as without 2 salaries, no home other than a bedsit is ever going to happen for the average worker.

For working single people of any age the situation is dire.

Unless people have kids in irresponsible circumstances (ie bedsit) the state no longer wants to know they exist… so eviction is a big fear as without kids no one gives a **** about you, no matter your other contributions to society or to tax.