[Closed] What hardtail frame - 650b long, low slack

Pace rc127?

Apart from long and low (it might be, but I don't know) and 65 degree head angle (think mine is closer to 67, although the new models are out and might be slacker?) the Bird ticks all those boxes. They are very good to deal with, both before and after you buy. Although I didn't get any instructions with mine, it must be said 🙂

shan?

Last Fastforward (and some 2.8" tyres)

- 650b
- Designed around a 140/150mm fork
- Long and low frame,
- Head angle around 65 deg
- Tapered HT
- 142 x 12 rear end (not a deal breaker)
- Stealth dropper (not a deal breaker)
- Lastly but most important of all, good after sales/customer services

Bird Zero AM. Ticks ALL the boxes and although mine hasn't arrived yet (the frames are due in tomorrow) the customer service so far has been excellent.

In the long tradition of recommending what you own, I have a 650B TransAM with 140 forks and I'd say that it fits your requirements very well. Tremendous fun on the downs and no slouch on the climbs. To be fair I haven't really done any long xc type rides yet but I don't foresee any problems!!

Mondraker Vantage?

At the current price I'm giving the 45650b a bash. May use angle headset to slacken more. Will try without first.

Crush is ace, really enjoying mine. I got mine as an insurance replacement for a 26" wheel on-one 456 and the crush is better IMO. Don't know if it's the switch to 27.5" wheels (boom! There goes the internet) or if it's the geo, but it just feels planted and surprisingly comfy.

I've had to contact Orange about a couple of things and they've been helpful. Not sure it's expensive TBH (any more so than equivalent frames anyway).

Just ordered a Bird Zero TR frameset, very helpful via email. My riding buddy, he's got an Aeris, really rates their customer services and he's a fussy bugger!

i have a trans am 27.5 at 130. long and slack enough, nice short chainstays. its really fun downhill and pretty good uphill, certainly climbs as well as the soul it replaced. strava rates it verses the soul too, in both directions. Not the lightest frame but thats not felt an issue so far

Mine gets used for xc with a focus on fun coming back down but i like to climb too. My full sus is a bandit 275 and this has similar geometry and feel just without the full bounce.

dont the whyte hardtails have that sort of geometry too? they are highly rated.

Shan isnt long - well the 26" isnt. I havent tried my mates 27.5 yet. Its also designed around 150/160 fork. Maybe the Oka?
Switchback is long, low and 140-150. Sounds spot on

Kingdom Vendetta 2 should fit the bill, or get in touch with Chris there, and he custom make something similar, to tick all your boxes.

Loving mine
[img][URL= http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y413/paulwatterson/image_zpspwqhcqrs.jpe g" target="_blank">http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y413/paulwatterson/image_zpspwqhcqrs.jpe g"/> [/IMG][/URL][/img]

The new orange p7 slacker than the crush and steel frame so not as harsh...I think orange will do well selling these if they keep the prices down that is ..

Shan and Meta designed by same people, (Ex Commencal designers) Jus' so you know.

Transam isn't as slack as you might have in mind, other than that you've pretty much described it. Give us a shout if you'd like to try one out in mid-Wales.

Shan is everything bar long and stealth dropper. However it is very flickable and pp have a ex display one in green for 400 euro.

Not sure how the 650b BFe measures up in terms of angles, but that might be worth a look?

I'd suggest a whyte but don't think they're available frame only

The new p7 is a nice looking bike isn't it?

Depends on what / where you're riding I guess but the trans am is 67 at 130, I guess it would be 66.5 with a 140 fork? That's plenty slack enough to ride downhill quickly with no rear suspension?!

I think the bfe is a little steeper?

The new dmr trail star is another one to throw in the mix?

the bird AM would be my choice

Bird Zero TR if you want to go low. Zero AM for something a little more aggressive.

In typical stw fashion, recommend what you ride - I love my pp shan 27.

Got to be a Switchback. Bloody love mine, so much so that I've sold the steel one and m full sus to buy the Ti version.

Only things it's not got is the stalth dropper routing.

My old steel one

[img] [/img]

And my current Ti one

[img] [/img]

Just to throw in another couple of names, I'd be looking at a BTR Ranger or a Curtis AM7.

I'm looking around my house deciding what I can sell just thinking about them 😀

Slightly worryingly most of these have the extended seat tube design that has caused me a bit of grief previously!

Doesn't follow that you'll have the same problems though. Quick email to whichever one you choose for an answer, then you're good to go.

Slightly worryingly most of these have the extended seat tube design that has caused me a bit of grief previously!

You don't often hear people talking about breaking frames like these - unlike Commencals (what a PR disaster your thread is!!!) I saw on the Bird site that none of their original Zero frames have broken and the new AM version uses the same tubes with longer/slacker/lower geometry.

The Stanton Switchback is the slackest HA hardtail but might not have the longest TT.
I had a great time riding BPW on mine with the Army DH & Enduro team

I have an original Zero and it's a fantastic bike. The new TR and AM are looking even better (may swap to one myself) and as others have said, they've been great to deal with.

Thanks for all the info, looks like my original thoughts were along the right lines.

Need to try to get a ride on a Switchback, Bird and TransAm I think.

Lovely as that Kingdom is budget needs to be close to what my frame will sell for, similarly I'd love another Curtis (had a sx26 back int day) but can't justify the price tag.

Doesn't follow that you'll have the same problems though. Quick email to whichever one you choose for an answer, then you're good to go.

Exactly, I'm not really that worried if they say it's all good.

NS Eccentric - surprised it hasn't come up once yet, looks fab in black too.

You're an XL aren't you?

Might the Switchback be too short for you? The bigger model looks too short for my liking with a 410.5mm reach - and I'm 5ft 8in.

Mondraker Vantage is in another postcode to the competition, length-wise. Reach of 517mm!

The new Bird Zero AM might be a reasonable option, with 478mm reach in XL. Surprised to see that's the same price as the Orange Crush though.

Bear in mind that with any of these hardtails there is a fair bit of geometric tweakery available - if they have 44mm headtubes they can take a -1 deg angleset with a tapered fork, if they have tapered headtubes they can take up to a -2 degree angleset with a tapered fork. And obviously you can run a variety of forks lengths, up to whatever the maximum is.

So the Bird AM I've ordered is coming with a -2 deg angleset (I already had one which they're kindly fitting but they can supply up to -1.5 deg as standard) and with the Pike lowered from 150 to 130mm. That's gives the medium frame the following static geometry (the changes make it slacker, lower and longer than the stock version):

HA: 64.3
SA: 75.4
ETT: 611
Reach: 450
BB drop: 55
Wheelbase: 1178

The reach and ETT on the XL frame are both just over 40mm longer, though the XL frames aren't arriving in the pre-Xmas shipment.

Closer to L on most size charts (6ft) but would happily ride an XL if it doesn't look like a gate and numbers are right.

I think you might be right on the Swichback, lovely looking thing but I think reach is going to be more important than the HA.

I did look at the Mondraker but not sure I can get passed the looks of the thing!

So the Bird AM I've ordered is coming with a -2 deg angleset (I already had one which they're kindly fitting but they can supply up to -1.5 deg as standard) and with the Pike lowered from 150 to 130mm. That's gives the medium frame the following static geometry (the changes make it slacker, lower and longer than the stock version):

That sounds like it's going to be a blast! Out of interest... where in the UK are you? 😉

Doesn't adding a slackset lengthen the wheelbase but shorten the ett/reach though chief? Or have I got that all wrong!? 🙂

woody2000 - Member
Doesn't adding a slackset lengthen the wheelbase but shorten the ett/reach though chief? Or have I got that all wrong!?

Yes - but you have eight or ten times as much length in the fork as you do above the headset, so it makes a much bigger difference to wheelbase than reach.

That sounds like it's going to be a blast! Out of interest... where in the UK are you?

I'm in Brighton (yes we do have some steep hills here, they just don't don't go on for all that long...) V excited!

Offset bushings (on a full-sus only obviously!) slacken both HA and SA and shorten the reach (not sure about ETT), like running a bike with more rear sag than front sag. But slacksets drop the headtube by kicking the front wheel out so the fork swaps vertical height for horizontal reach, and dropping the head tube rotates the frame forwards, increasing the reach and steepening the seat tube (which is why the ETT shortens slightly).

I spent countless hours over the last couple of months designing my own frame (but that seems to be in limbo as the guy dealing with Taiwan to arrange getting the sample built is very busy) and when I saw the new Zero AM's geometry I realised that with the addition of a slackset and shorter fork it would be really close to what I'd designed - it's ridiculously close in fact, angles within 1/4 degree, same reach, same head tube length, seat tube 10mm longer - biggest differences are BB 5mm lower and chainstays 10mm shorter. Would be rude not to buy one! 😉

I have a Bird Aeris, so can't comment on HTs but can on customer service, which has been impeccable. Sounds like you need a Zero AM, though it's the TR that gets my juices going *bows out with little grace*.

Closer to L on most size charts (6ft) but would happily ride an XL if it doesn't look like a gate and numbers are right.

I think you might be right on the Swichback, lovely looking thing but I think reach is going to be more important than the HA.

I did look at the Mondraker but not sure I can get passed the looks of the thing!

I'm the same height as you neat enough and find the Switchback fine. I run a 50mm stem and a 785mm bar. Whilst not the longest thing in the world it's fine for long rides and that's coming from a Banshee Rune as my main bike which was pretty long.

Customer service is good too - Dan is a top bloke.

Where are you based?

Had a 45650b with a 150mm fork....i sold it as it was boring.

Now let me explain that comment as it sounds like I'm bashing the bike, I'm not, it was very capable....too capable.
I like HTs to be flickable, I like them to pop off roots, manual over obstacles and make me think about line choice...the 45650b was so good it took a lot of that away...i may as well have been riding a FS....which is a massive compliment I suppose!

It rode great, climbed well, descended like a DH bike and was all day comfortable....price is unbeatable too, in raw they're stunning...i had it all 3 months before breaking it down and selling it off to buy a 26er Ragley....which behaves how I like HTs to ride.

I'd get one if outright speed is your goal, it really is a steamroller of a bike and makes a tricky trail ridiculously easy to ride...if however you want fun, but more involvement from your HT then chose something else.
Enjoy either way!

The geometry of the Whyte 905 is pretty out there, very long & low, with a 66.5' head angle. The small has an ETT of 619mm & reach of 431mm! XL has a 674mm ETT & 475mm of reach!!!!!!! BB sits @ 305mm with a 130mm fork.

I had a 456c for a while, whist it was a quick bike it was filling-rattlingly stiff and probably the ugliest bike I've ever owned, I know the steel should be a lot more compliant but fancy something different.

The Whyte does look good and they're local too, can you get them as a frame only though?

Having spent a bit of time looking at the options I think that (on paper at least) the only thing that comes close to both geometry and budget is the Bird Zero AM.

Im just gonna leave this here 🙂

[img] [/img]

Love my switchback BUT its not without issues - limited rear tyre clearance (2.3 HR is fine but no go for Magic Marys) and rear disc mount is about 5mm to high (180 mount/rotor on a 142x12 rear dropouts)

Im just gonna leave this here

Swine!

142 - check
ISCG - check
stealth ready - check
rad colour - check

Rad! When are the full builds shipping out?

@chiefgrooveguru today - big load going out today, more tomorrow. Should clear the whole backlog by Wednesday.

Heres a yet-to-be-finished-photoshopping yellow for you..

[url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/646/23258944624_a9fa7be191_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/646/23258944624_a9fa7be191_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/BrjaUC ]yellow Front on 3-4[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/59606294@N08/ ]Bird[/url], on Flickr

@chiefgrooveguru your's is in a work stand now... I think ... 130mm Pikes, -1.5 Angleset? Will ship tomorrow therefore.

http://enduro-mtb.com/en/eurobike-2015-liteville-reveal-two-new-bikes/

coming soon 🙂

No idea on angles/reach etc but I reckon it looks the dogs danglies (but then I am biased)

@chiefgrooveguru your's is in a work stand now... I think ... 130mm Pikes, -1.5 Angleset? Will ship tomorrow therefore.

Yes, 130mm Pikes but -2 deg Works headset (which I sent you). Exciting! Better get some brake adaptors ordered so I can swap my Hopes on... Wednesday arrival likely then?

What adaptors do you need? I will chuck you in some.

Love my switchback BUT its not without issues - limited rear tyre clearance (2.3 HR is fine but no go for Magic Marys) and rear disc mount is about 5mm to high (180 mount/rotor on a 142x12 rear dropouts)

The tyre thing is a bit of a pain (I run 2.2 Trail Kings and there's not tonnes of clearance - certainly not like on my Rune). Not noticed ant issues with the rear brake alignment on either of mine.

But I love the way it rides, so can forgive it.

That Bird does look nice though.

What adaptors do you need? I will chuck you in some.

That's very kind, thanks! Hope 183mm front and rear.

Ahh, sorry dude! Those for 183mm floaters? We don't carry those I am afraid. 🙁

Yes, they're a silly size! Apparently Hope are switching to 180mm for next year's models...

@benpinnick Is that the Zero TR?

@benpinnick How much steerer tube do you leave above the stem on your builds?

30mm including the HS stack,so on yours it will be 20 or 25 because the headset has a big top stack.

@leftyboy - they are both AMs.

@benpinnick Nice I'm expecting delivery of my Zero TR frameset tomorrow 🙂

Done the bright yellow frame now but that matt black looks stunning! Would go well with black on black Revs and plain carbon wheels that are in the shed...

Out of interest how much seat post do you recommend to run in the frame?

@jamesfts on an AM L you need 120mm ideally. You could get away with 110mm if you really had too - if your not too heavy!

@chiefgrooveguru your bike is done. Man thats a long, low and raked out machine. Looks rad in super blacked out build.

Looks like you have already decided, but will mention anyway that I have a Ragley Blue Pig and although it's quite heavy it climbs reasonably well. I rode it in the Alps this year and it feels nice and robust!

@chiefgrooveguru any chance of photos when it turns up please!?

@benpinnick what sort of cost for that yellow one in the pic? Been looking at building up a trail hardtail but buying a Bird complete May be cheaper

That one is just over £2000 I think - but its pretty high spec throughout - pretty much top end with Atlas/Turbine everywhere, Pike RCT3s etc. You could trim it down to < £1900 and still have pikes/reverb/XT11 etc. and I don't think you'd notice a major practical difference in terms of ride. Of course I would prefer you stay at the top end 😉

If @chiefgrooveguru doesn't mind and its not boxed by the time I get in tomorrow I would be happy to post up some pics.

I'd be very happy for you to post some pics!

No time for the studio I am afraid... but heres some quick shots:

[url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/762/23822289541_86f01e1f2b_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/762/23822289541_86f01e1f2b_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/Ci6sJ2 ]CGG 1[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/59606294@N08/ ]shouldknowbettor[/url], on Flickr

[url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/601/23536896899_7a239bfd1b_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/601/23536896899_7a239bfd1b_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/BRSKre ]CGG 2[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/59606294@N08/ ]shouldknowbettor[/url], on Flickr

[url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/620/23822278301_fa57f3e42c_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/620/23822278301_fa57f3e42c_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/Ci6poe ]cgg 3[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/59606294@N08/ ]shouldknowbettor[/url], on Flickr

Thats pure sex!

Yeah, that does look bloody good.

What size is that Ben?

Errr... medium I think. Bear in mind though the L is only 1" taller so it looks pretty similar.

That does indeed look pretty damn nice.

Ben can I email you about some specs? What's ur email?

No probs - ben@birdmtb.co.uk. We stock most things (decent) from Shimano, SRAM, Rockshox, RaceFace, DT Swiss (E series) and Maxxis, so you can basically just write out a wish list if you want 🙂

Brickwork lower down needs some attention.

Awesome! It will never look that clean again... 😉