What happened to the mountain bike industry?

Was beaten to it re 135mm vs 142mm. They are the same thing, the extra 7mm is simply an additional tab to locate the hub in the dropout. Anyone who’s ever owned a bike with an 135×12 axle will know just what a PITA it is to replace a wheel in the near dark.

Boost vexes me. It’s now 148mm (I assume this includes the locating tabs as per 142mm), but I don’t understand why they didn’t opt for the full fat 150mm standard with corresponding wider crank interface, thus making for a stronger frame that takes advantage of an existing standard…

…maybe that’s the point. Speccing aftermarket parts is an effing nightmare…

http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=7&navigation=1&menu=1000%2C2%2C121&__qf_form-filter=&pgc%5B14697%5D=14700&pgc%5B5416%5D=5417&pgc%5B14696%5D=14708
(hoping that link works – grr, no it doesn’t, it dumps the filters, but they’re easy to choose from the menu)

blimey, there’s even 2016 model Rockshox DH forks in 26er, 1 1/8 straight steerer, with 20mm thru axle

get em in now before you’re “forced” to replace with a 15mm thru axle version, and be forced to buy different end caps for the hubs.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rockshox-Lyrik-RC-170mm-Solo-Air-/151900147151

Brand new 170mm (will come with the spacer to reduce) 1 1/8″ 20mm axle Lyriks. I have a pair of the RC2DH on my Pitch, they’re great 🙂

My 26″ frame broke and was replaced with a 650B as they no longer made 26ers. It was a very expensive warranty replacement, I can tell you.
Wha gwan?

If my 1 1/8″ forks break and there are no 160mm forks with 20mm axles available then yes, I’ll be forced to change my perfectly good frame.

I’m sure we did this a few pages back. You’ve being overly dramatic. Not to mention worrying about a situation that hasn’t happened, are you a regular fork breaker? If you break your 1 1/8th forks then you have several options:

> fix them! Depending on what ‘broke’ this may be easy, new seals, new cartridges, new uppers, new lowers, new stanchions, the parts are available if you ask/look.
> Replace them with 1 1-8th 15mm or QR forks, and convert your wheel, you might have preferred the 20mm axle but you *can* replace the forks
> buy NOS, there are forks out there, stock sitting on shelves etc.*
> buy a 2nd hand fork, not ideal if you want new, but it is an option if none of the above are feasible.

Or quit mountain biking.

Edit to add: This isn’t a hypothetical. I can’t find any 1 1/8″ 20mm forks anywhere so if they do go I’ll have to stick my 2007 Santa Cruz Nomad in a skip.

If it happens (fork breaking) then put your money where your mouth is.
If it’ll be so impossible to get bits for and presumably worthless then buy all means give your (9 years old) Nomad to me, I’ll even pay postage 😉

*this goes back to my point about people being influenced by what they see on CRC, Wiggle etc. You said you can’t find them anywhere, go into your LBS and ask if they could get any from the supplier/distributor? ring around some shops to see what stock they have in the back room? ask the servicing/repairs places if they have any stock? just because something isn’t available in under 3 clicks form google doesn’t mean its not available.

Ok then what should I replace my 66s with if they break unfixably?

160mm or 170mm travel (although I like the adjustable ones), air, 36mm stanchions, 1 1/8 straight steerer.

if they break unfixably?

Well, fist you’re gonna have to come up with some actual idea of how that might happen, short of snapping them into a million pieces. as a side note there seems to be a strange idea from a lot of people that everything needs replacing rather than repairing.

Anyway, some links provided, helpfully by others above, or you could look into the last two options on my list, and look for some NOS of the same model, or whatever was competing with that model when they were new (so Lyrics, Fox 36’s, BOS, other 66’s, Xfusion ? etc.), or 2nd hand.

I just think all this “OMG I’m gonna have to give up and my bike is going in the bin” stuff is a bit over the top.

if you snap a pair of 160-180mm forks, then I’d be more concerned about a good dentist initially. forks can wait, but 3 clicks will get you Rockshox, BOS or Fox.

> fix them! Depending on what ‘broke’ this may be easy, new seals, new cartridges, new uppers, new lowers, new stanchions, the parts are available if you ask/look.

While there are many things you can fix (I’ve already ‘fixed’ the two step air spring by replacing it with a coil) I think it’s a bit of a leap to say that you can fix any damage the fork might end up with. For example, there is definitely some play that wasn’t there before which suggests to me that the bushings might be on the way out. I could replace the lowers but if the stanchions are also gouged then it’s worth getting new uppers as well. While you can get the parts there comes a point where you just have to say enough is enough.

> Replace them with 1 1-8th 15mm or QR forks, and convert your wheel, you might have preferred the 20mm axle but you *can* replace the forks

I’m still being forced to change something. Even then, 1 1/8″ with 15mm is going to become less common pretty soon if all new bikes are tapered.

> buy NOS, there are forks out there, stock sitting on shelves etc.*

The problem with NOS is that there is a finite amount. The price only goes up as it gets rarer.

> buy a 2nd hand fork, not ideal if you want new, but it is an option if none of the above are feasible.

Again, the number of 2nd hand forks that are still serviceable is only going to decrease.

None of your points change the fact that an old frame is going to become uneconomical to maintain eventually. Constantly changing standards is only going to accelerate that process.

I could replace the lowers but if the stanchions are also gouged then it’s worth getting new uppers as well. While you can get the parts there comes a point where you just have to say enough is enough.

Indeed the repair cost versus replacement cost is always going to be an issue, but that is an issue regardless of age, and is a question of (personal) economics, not really a question of availability. You’d be in the same predicament if your 18month old 15mm tapered forks had worn bushings and stanchions.

The problem with NOS is that there is a finite amount. The price only goes up as it gets rarer.

or drops as less people want them and shops left with stock on the shelves, it swings both ways, same with 2nd hand too, but you’re now offering ever more hypothetical secenarios.

if I break my forks and the repair is too expensive, and I can’t find a new one, and there are no NOS forks available, and there’s no 2nd hand ones available.

which is a bit different to your original statement of bike going in the skip if your fork breaks.

I really do get what you’re concerned about, I’m just hammering home the point that I think the perception of the problem exceeds the reality of the problem.

an old frame is going to become uneconomical to maintain eventually

To be fair all round, that’s normal for anything. Cars, boilers, etc. It’s simply getting towards the old-age of its ‘realistic lifespan’ and little to do with forced obsoloscence. It’s great that you’ve run it for so long, I’m all for not replacing stuff for the sake of it, but fatigue, wear and tear etc – 9 years is already good going.

Well, fist you’re gonna have to come up with some actual idea of how that might happen,

Why is this such a strange concept?

Let me give you an example. I snapped the valve off the bottom of the 66s through overtightening and fatigue. The part’s not made any more, fortunately Windwave looked in their spares bin and found two, which they sent to me FoC because they were worthless as far as they were concerned. There’s also a little bit of string in them which was notorious for breaking, and this isn’t available any more. I had to make my own, which wasn’t easy, finding the right stuff. I ended up buying a bow string, untwisting it and re-twisting and binding it into the right shape.

There’s two issues, and I was lucky both times I think.

What does NOS mean?

I’m just hammering home the point that I think the perception of the problem

I’m not saying I have a problem – I don’t, currently. However I may if something else breaks on those forks. Obsolescence has always been an issue in anything technical, the problem is (with wheels and forks in particular) that the bike industry seem to be making it a lot worse. Now much of that is due to progress, of course, but people are a little bit cross when it could make obsolescence worse for little actual benefit. People *feel* like they are being played. This always annoys people in any market not just bikes.

if they break unfixably?

Well, fist you’re gonna have to come up with some actual idea of how that might happen, short of snapping them into a million pieces

[/quote]

So I asked for an example of how you could break your fork unfixably, and you respond with two times you were able to fix it? 😕

What does NOS mean?

New Old Stock,

ie: parts that are no longer produced but there is still stock available.

I’m just hammering home the point that I think the perception of the problem

I’m not saying I have a problem – I don’t, currently. However I may if something else breaks on those forks

[/quote]

I wasn’t directly responding to you, it was in response to Bruce, but that’s it again, you are worrying about future events, we’re just trying to reassure you that perhaps it’s not as bad as you fear.

So I asked for an example of how you could break your fork unfixably, and you respond with two times you were able to fix it?

It doesn’t take much to work out what happens if someone else breaks their valve given that I have the last two in existence? Do you not get my point? Spares are no longer made. You must understand that when spares are no longer made this makes repairing things a lot harder!

To be fair all round, that’s normal for anything. Cars, boilers, etc. It’s simply getting towards the old-age of its ‘realistic lifespan’ and little to do with forced obsoloscence. It’s great that you’ve run it for so long, I’m all for not replacing stuff for the sake of it, but fatigue, wear and tear etc – 9 years is already good going.

As a tight fisted Yorkshireman these things irk me – realistic lifespan’s seem to be reducing all the time and do smell of forced obsoloscence – not specifically in the bike industry but all round.

Small leak on seal on electric kettle thats only 15 months old – can’t get parts so had to buy new kettle.

Microwave packing in after only 3 years – ffs it only does about an hours work a year as we barely use it. Part availalble but at twice the price of buying a new microwave.

Perfectly good cars scrapped cos minor electronic problems are unfixable.

List goes on and on with items being discarded after a relatively short lifespan, only to be replaced by another one shipped from the other side of the world.

Then we ban free carrier bags as it’s bad for the environment.

Right. I’ll **** off now, moaning and grumbling old git that I am.

It doesn’t take much to work out what happens if someone else breaks their valve given that I have the last two in existence? Do you not get my point? Spares are no longer made. You must understand that when spares are no longer made this makes repairing things a lot harder!

I do, I really really do get it, but there may also be spares with other distributors or shops that you don’t know about, there might not, but you’re not giving an example of forced obsolescence there, you’re giving an example of natural lifetime of parts availability. as James said above, keeping old stuff going is always going to become trickier as time goes on, but that isn’t planned obsolescence or some industry conspiracy, which was what was being put forwards. If you product does reach the end of its natural lifespan and is not repairable, that’s when you fall back current alternative forks, or NOS forks, or 2nd hand etc.

I get that it might be a tiny bit more tricky to find the bits, yes you might even not be able to fix your fork ,but with people making comments about bikes going in skips, giving up, not being able to fix their bike‘s then that’s where it gets silly.

** Disclaaimer **

I’m not someone who buys new bikes every year with the latest tech, I have bikes ranging from 2-30 years old, across road, MTB, tourer etc, but do have a fair bit of modern kit as well.

I have not yet come across a problem that means any of them are no longer viable or repairable, specific parts maybe harder to find or I might have to use an alternative but nothing has been consigned to the scrapheap due to a simple lack of parts.

I also help to run a local cycling charity where we have a recycling and re-use workshop so probably spend a fair bit more time than most having to repair odd, unusual, out of production models and parts, you’d think if we were going to run into issues of obsolescence it would be here. People donate things all the time that are ‘beyond repair’ or that they think they can’t get parts for, 99% of it isn’t a problem for us.

We are even restoring a <1940 travel tandem that can completely disassemble and fit into a suitcase, parts are available, we have 1950s and 60s roadsters being fixed, we even have some pretty obscure propriety things come through (80s Klein anyone?) that are not not problems.

If anything I don’t want to argue with people, I want to reassure them that it’s not as bad as they fear!

but you’re not giving an example of forced obsolescence there, you’re giving an example of natural lifetime of parts availability.

I didn’t say they were forcing us deliberately, I said we might be forced. All the new standards make it much harder to find support.

But the argument’s not about repairing the forks, it’s about replacing them if they cannot be repaired. Which is not uncommon. If all forks still had 1 1/8 steerers it’d be a piece of cake to get new forks, but thanks to new standards there’s now far less choice.

As I said there are still options – for now. If I keep the bike long enough then there won’t be, and the bike will indeed be thrown away. The question is when will that be? I hope it’s later rather than sooner.

And NOS/eBay isn’t a solution, it’s a compromise. There’s no question that users of old bikes are worse off, and we’re going to get worse off still as time goes on.

Now as I said, there are good reasons for tapered forks, and I understand this. 27.5 and boost are the things that have annoyed people the most. However this is not YET a problem.

But there are also other annoyances. My LBS is the same size as it always was, and their tyre display is the same size, but now 26″ tyres only occupy a third of the display so there are a third as many tyres in stock. So if I go in needing a tyre straight away, I am less likely to find something like I want. So I have to compromise – say, I might have to get the cheap compound, or a wire bead. So then in a small way I’ve had to downgrade my bike. It’s an annoyance.

I will just continue riding my 10 year old 26″ wheeled bike around and deal with any issues when they occur. Much bigger things to worry about that what may or may not break on my bike and whether I could fix it or get a replacement part….

I also don’t think this golden age when everything was interchangeable and standardised actually existed. Look back from the turn of the century (the last one 1900, not 2000), and things have been changing at pace all along, it was even worse back in the British vs French vs Italian vs American days, nothing ever stays static for more than a few years, some things last longer than others I’ll grant you, but with the variety of stuff I come into contact with if anything modern bikes are easier to deal with.

case in point:

But the argument’s not about repairing the forks, it’s about replacing them if they cannot be repaired. Which is not uncommon. If all forks still had 1 1/8 steerers it’d be a piece of cake to get new forks, but thanks to new standards there’s now far less choice

they never did ALL have 1 1/8th, it was the dominant standard for a while, but you’re repeating the same things people said 20-30 years ago with 1 inch, in 20 years people will be wishing it was back in the good old days when everything used the tapered standard.

This becomes a bigger deal at the transition point, and I agree that we are currently in one with respect to fork steerers, and some other areas too maybe, but this isn’t a new problem.

And as I said back on the previous pages I don’t think this is a deliberate industry conspiracy to make old stuff obsolete, it’s a by-product of progress, doesn’t mean more attention couldn’t be paid to backwards compatability mind 😉

Anyways, round and round in circles we go, the upshot being that you cna all carry on being worried and annoyed, I’ll be in happy lala land not giving two hoots fixing and repairing bikes. 🙂

Much bigger things to worry about that what may or may not break on my bike and whether I could fix it or get a replacement part

EDIT – looks like I’ll have company 🙂

I admit that throwing my bike in a skip was an exaggeration (I actually have a set of Fox 36s that are sitting on the wall ready to spring into service if the Lyriks decide to die on me and I can’t repair them).

I think what is annoying me, and probably a lot of other people, is that these changes are being brought in in the name of (questionable) performance benefits while causing an explosion in the number of standars. The end consumer doesn’t benefit and the LBSs certainly don’t. The only people benefiting are the online stores since they can carry all the various standards and people are being forced into using them since the LBSs simply can’t carry the stock for every customer anymore.

If my 1 1/8″ forks break and there are no 160mm forks with 20mm axles available then yes, I’ll be forced to change my perfectly good frame.

But you can’t have it both ways. You’ve been riding 1-1/8″, 160mm travel forks with 20mm axles. If we followed some of the reasoning going on in this thread, you should have been riding 1″, 80mm forks with 9mm QRs. That’s if you graduated away from rigid forks at all?

You’d be hard pressed to find a 1″ steerer but there are plenty of forks with 9mm QR and 80-100mm travel out there.

Funnily enough I’ve actually got a set of Z2s with a 1″ steerer sitting in the garage. They’re off my 1997 P7 which was probably the last ‘proper’ mountain bike to still run a 1″ steerer. I put the rigid forks back on it though because these days I mostly use it as a commuter and suspension seems a bit unnecessary.

The real question is did we actually need anything between 9mm QR and 20mm?

but you’re repeating the same things people said 20-30 years ago with 1 inch

Well not quite because there’s more to my point. Whilst we’ve always had changing standards, and we’ve lived with that, but now there have been so many changes so quickly, all of which are incompatible with previous frames (despite not appearing to make a lot of difference to the ride), that people have begun to feel the industry is taking the piss.

It’s the implications and frequency that’s the issue.

Anyway that’s all I’m going to say on that. I do like innovation, generally – but it’d have been nice if they could ahve saved it all up and released a new MTB designed from the ground up all in one go.

It’s the implications and frequency that’s the issue.

+1.

@dangerousbeans – Member you are totally on the money.

Microwave packing in after only 3 years – ffs it only does about an hours work a year as we barely use it. Part availalble but at twice the price of buying a new microwave.

What was it?

I’ve fixed loads of stuff in our house, because I’m able to buy the parts of ebay – this was never possible in the old days. Turntable motor went in ours, fiver for a new one.

Anyway – what’s the most modern bike available, with all the new standards?

It’d have to have:

820mm bars
0mm stem
Boost hubs
Tapered steerer
NW chainring
1×11

What else?

915mm bars surely.

Definitely not a gearbox.

That’s not the kind of innovation we need round these parts.

Whilst we’ve always had changing standards, and we’ve lived with that, but now there have been so many changes so quickly, all of which are incompatible with previous frames

I do know what you mean, I had some of the same thoughts for a while but when I think back on it and reflect properly I don’t think it is actually any worse than it has been in the last 20 odd years.

I wonder if some aspect of it comes from modern media, especially social media like STW where new innovations (worthwhile or not!) are so much more visible and in your face than they ever were?

20, (even 10 years ago maybe?) most of the exposure you’d have to new stuff was either through monthly magazines, or your LBS and you didn’t get to see such a broad spectrum of things, nor was it so rammed down your throat over and over with video sand articles. But I think they were always there, just much more localised and perhaps manufacturer-centric for a while, things get ‘out’ and shared lots more now, maybe there’s some truth in this, maybe not, just musing out loud 🙂

Anyway – what’s the most modern bike available, with all the new standards?

It’d have to have:

820mm bars
0mm stem
Boost hubs
Tapered steerer
NW chainring
1×11

What else?

By your own criteria though it would have to be stuff that can’t be retro-fitted to old bikes, so your bars, stem, 1×11 and NW chainring are out as I can happily fit them to anything.

I’ll throw in:

– pressfit BB*
– integrated headsets*
– direct mount front mech
– flat-mount roadie discs
– stupid new BCD chainrings

*modern versions, cos they’re not new innovations by a long shot!

No I meant most modern and new-fangled. Those bars with the dent in the back that you need for a 0mm stem.

58 degree head angle
3 metre top tube

I was going to do a long winded response but amedias said it all and I agree with everything he says.

If you want to keep a older bike running you will be able to. Yes, all these daft new ‘standards’ are a pita but most pass without the majority of us needing to get involved.

BruceWee – Member

The real question is did we actually need anything between 9mm QR and 20mm?

15mm is one of the better examples I reckon. All that effort down the years dedicated to attacking an existing, superior standard.

agreed, 20mm was already wider, well supported, and in a lot of cases lighter.

If you want to keep a older bike running you will be able to.

You might be able to get A part for it, but your choice will be crap. This is already happening to an extent.

The change from 26 to 27.5 seems on the face of it a cynical cash-in by large manufacturers, designed to encourage higher margin new bike sales that suit them, their group brands and distribution network rather than real progress. I can’t tell the difference between the ones I’ve ridden!

I’ve ridden two 29’ers and the things that stood out as most different was feeling taller and needing more man handling in tight turns. Didn’t ride either long enough to make a conclusive decision whether it was better as a whole riding experience or not.

The MTB fashion tax added to lubricants clothing and generic Chinese components is insulting. The misleading way manufacturers attempt to dupe consumers into paying over the odds for low spec parts, using marketing bullshit, made up proprietary technologies, imaginary RRP’s & sales, similar looks and oblique specs to higher end products is laughable.

The cringe worthy corporate slogans plastered all over some bikes/parts is so cheesy and smacks of trying too hard.

Increased cost for reduced spec, plastic wear parts where metal once was, cheaper tubing etc is a blatant piss take.

Apart from the above it’s cool.

chestercopperpot – Member

The MTB fashion tax added to lubricants

Fox red oil- about £20
Silkolene rsf- about £10
What causes the £10 difference? The label

You can get an adapter for that

Any example where bikes have increased in cost with worse specs is simply down to exchange rate movements – you are buying items which are manufactured in USD trading countries – when GBP is strong against USD us in the UK get more bikes for our money – and vice versa. If you don’t want it to be like that then you’ll need to get used to paying UK labour costs to have everything made here…

Regarding bike parts and obsolescence, I remember my Dad moaning about ever changing standards at some point in the late ’80s or early ’90s, so it’s not exactly a new thing!

Stop playing my own game against me Scotroutes!