Welsh Cycling Industry Unites Against Welsh Trail Centre Closures

Over 90 separate Welsh cycling organisations have today co-signed a letter to Welsh Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and …

By chipps

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Welsh Cycling Industry Unites Against Welsh Trail Centre Closures

That’a pretty strongly worded letter. Pulls no punches

Indeed. But sometimes politicians need to hear this to realise that all is not well in a Government organisation.

Thank you for running this story Singletrack! As a local to these centres, our MTB journey started there and has developed enormously thanks to them. Anyone who has visited Coed Y Brenin or Bwlch Nant Yr Arian or Ynyslas (not MTB) please sign the petition to help put pressure on the Welsh Government. They will be debating it on 16th September.

Also, make noise on your socials about the threatened closures, share the petition, share your memories of the trail centres, and keep visiting them to show continued support!

https://petitions.senedd.wales/petitions/246323

The petition seems to be closed now….

“Closed for new signatures
A decision on whether to refer or reject this petition will be made shortly – petitions that collect more than 250 signatures are discussed by the Petitions Committee”.

Great letter. If it falls on deaf ears, the next step is building a dirt jump at the senedd or nrw head office!

Why is this described as a letter from the Welsh cycling industry? All the named individuals are merely quango jockeys. None of the business listed are involved in the manufacture of bicycles or bicycle parts. This is a bunfight amongst 3rd sector grifters.

Why is this described as a letter from the Welsh cycling industry? All the named individuals are merely quango jockeys. None of the business listed are involved in the manufacture of bicycles or bicycle parts. This is a bunfight amongst 3rd sector grifters.

Did you bother to read to the end? There are nearly 100 more signatures to this letter with well over half being from companies directly working in the cycling industry in one form or another…..it’s not a requirement to be involved in the manufacture of bike’s & components to be a part of the cycling industry. Jesus…..

I hope it makes a difference, but…how will this all be paid for? If this is saved then something somewhere else will suffer.
Any thoughts on how to generate more money from bikers without making it obvious they are trying to be fleeced?

Aware this isn’t a massively positive post, but I’m really not wanting to see anything gets closed, but without a plan to pay for on-going costs and development, I’m struggling to see what can be done.

Well it would be a sensible start to enable more volunteer work to go ahead rather than drown it in red tape…

Living in Wales, albeit a couple of hours drive from NyA and further still from CyB I have a strong interest in this. Other posts have expressed well what a disaster has been happening. Penmachno is in my mind a portent of what is to come for NyA and CyB although being less reliant on woodwork it might not be quite so bad. However, see White’s Level in Afan. Goodwood was shut for maintenance and afaik, never reopened. Hopefully I am wrong.

The lack of responses on this thread is indicative of the lack of interest in the places. They need to change to attract more and new riders. I toyed with the idea of an uplift service at CyB once, I still think it could possibly work. Not so sure about NyA though. A friend tried to run the uplift at Afan bitd but the Forestry Commission/ EA, NRW put so many barriers and conditions in the way, as well as requiring hugely expensive insurance it wasn’t even vaguely viable.

Again, at Brechfa I know if two failed cafe vans. Both had great food. But again, I believe that both had to really battle with NRW and in the end it just wasn’t worth it to continue.

Yet bizarrely, Cwmyrhaedr has never had any extra facilities beyond a car park, using the middle of nowhere with only a short trail and seems to be busy.

CyB will wither purely and simply for the same reason it was built there in the first place.  It’s a long way away from most population centres and in a not very popular location.

CyB will wither purely and simply for the same reason it was built there in the first place. It’s a long way away from most population centres and in a not very popular location.

CyB used to be wildly popular! Llandegla still is really popular, you get there at 11am on a Sunday, there’s nowhere to park. On the other hand, last time I went to CyB last year, I thought I’d arrived on set of a zombie movie, there was no-one in the car park!

So what’s changed at CyB…?!

Is everyone off gravel riding instead? Is it really too far? Or has the lack of maintenance and general careless attitude about the place from those who are supposed to be managing it driven people away…?

Genuine question, I don’t know the answers.

Great letter. If it falls on deaf ears, the next step is building a dirt jump at the senedd or nrw head office!

 

Build a latrine across the entrance too, to emphasise the loss of the toilets and the resulting need for visitors to crap in the open.

60km of gravel routes were added to CyB last Easter.

Further, the massively popular Traws Eryri passes through and uses it as a hub, surely it’s raison d’aitre. It offers a café, wash facilities, WC, shop, e bike charging, route finding, loads of alternative biking as well as walking trails.

Come on people, pipe up. If you have ever had a good time in any of the Welsh trail centres please offer your support.

You don’t know what you have got until it’s gone.

They are described in the letter as “Outdoor sector businesses” so yes I did read the letter to the end. That’s not the cycling industry because as far as I am aware there is no cycling industry in Wales, just tourist adjacent leisure businesses who seem to be looking for some sort of “investment” from the public purse.

Thanks for sharing @chipps

Presenting an argument for ‘what should be done’ will hopefully lead to steps in that direction. Rather than the stepping back from the great trail centres Wales has given us.

there is no cycling industry in Wales

There’s Atherton Bikes at the least. Plus I believe there are still bike shops in Wales. Both are ‘cycling industry’ things even if folks are disputing, unfairly, other types of organisation.

Come on people, pipe up. If you have ever had a good time in any of the Welsh trail centres please offer your support.

You don’t know what you have got until it’s gone.

I’ve had a good time pretty much every time I’ve been to one. (Penmachno in the wet the notable exception).

People who can’t enjoy them are either so good at bike riding they should probably dedicate their weekends to racing; or so bad they should try gardening.

The only downsides I’ve ever encountered are due to trail closures/diversions – which would improve with time and labour investment obviously.

I’m a long way away though (2 hours to cwm carn, proably 6 to CyB) how do I best offer support?

Looks like a very well deserved kicking for NRW.

Fingers crossed the powers that be actually take notice.

That all seems a bit unfair. How are you defining “cycling industry”?

Bike shops, guides, trail centres, coaches, holiday providers, etc… That’s a cycling industry, as much as a bunch of lovies, scriptwriters and camera operators are part of a film industry. Wales has both by the way.

I really don’t see this just as the tourist businesses asking for public money. The letter sets out a much greater view for partnerships between NRW and interested parties. Of course, any economic benefits, especially local, are to be welcomed.

From my perspective – a rider living in S. Wales – I’m very happy with the letter. Kudos goes to those that did the spade work (excuse the pun) to present a unified response to the threatened closures.

The gofundme page that is linked to the UK MTB Trail Alliance website is about 2K short of an initial target of 10K to cover their year 1 costs. Just saying…

I’ll leave a link here:  https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-us-to-protect-your-trails/donate?source=btn_donations_message

For transparency, I’m not involved (yet!)

usually visit CyB 4 or 5 times a year, cafe is always shut early and hardly ever pay for Car park its like they aren’t trying to generate money

 It’s a long way away from most population centres and in a not very popular location.

It’s not really, It’s a couple of hours from Manchester and Birmingham, and besides most ‘adventure’ landscapes in the UK are the same, they’re all in remote places, that’s kinda the point. As to why it’s not popular, I’d be guessing but I reckon Uplift parks are fulfilling the needs of lots of folks, who’d otherwise be the customer for these places. Antur Stiniog, Dyfi, even BPW (although it’s a way away) are all just as available just as easy to get to, and aren’t nearly as much work to get your smiles, and as these places get less and less development, they’re just not keeping up with what folks want. – and I don’t think they want 30km of worn out trails with under a 1000m of descending for all the effort when you can do three or four times that at any uplift park.

I really don’t see this just as the tourist businesses asking for public money.

It’s not, it’s much more asking for some heads to be knocked together at NRW and get the “free” stuff working better.

e.g. volunteer work, wild trails etc.

And for community groups to be given a fair go at taking over the sites marked for closure, which would probably be the best and most-sustainable solution considering these sites are not gonna suddenly become money spinners again.

I try to get there at least once or twice a year, mostly winter as it’s nice to have the changing facilities ay the end of winter ride and while I never seem to pick a day when the ticket machine is out of order, I don’t mind paying and always try to spend something in the bike shop, even if it’s just a pair of socks or gloves or trail snacks. The café is always a bit of let down though. Folk there are lovely but the food is uninspiring.

last time I went to CyB last year, I thought I’d arrived on set of a zombie movie, there was no-one in the car park!

So what’s changed at CyB…?!

3 things have changed to affect CyB. Though weirdly enough, none of them are actually changes by/at CyB.

Transport costs have risen hugely. Personally I’m not impacted by it, but I recall people saying a year or two ago that they just didn’t want to drive as far. CyB IS a hell of a long way from pop centres. Especially compared to ‘ degla for example

Continuing the point above, there are now far more other places to MTB that are closer to pop centres, so there is no need to drive all that way any more.  Quarter of a century ago Llandegla trails didn’t exist, Winn Hill was just for ramblears, Macc Forest was just a dull Bridleway route. Now there is so much more choice from the north of England

Trail building/ info has moved on. Doing the Red bull dabless was a big deal for me 25 years ago. The rocky gnadgery stuff was great at the time.  But nowadays, with modern bikes it just isn’t one thing nor another.  If I want gnadgery tech ( that still feels difficult on a big bike) then I use the internet to plan a lakes trip of go to the ‘gorms.  If you want jumpy flow, which most people seem to these days, then there’s loads of better places.  The CyB trails are neither one thing not the other.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved CyB and had many brilliant days there, but last time I rode Red Bull I realised that objectively speaking it was just….. a bit shit.  Sorry, but it was.  MBR has stood the test of time much better, and The Beast is still brilliant at what it is. But there’s far fewer people interested in what The Beast is these days.

For me, the issues started when NRW was formed, which merged the Welsh forestry commission, EA Wales  and CCW.  All of a sudden one body was responsible for environmental regulation, but also the running and maintenance of land, forests and associated leisure infrastructure.    All of these new responsibities from one budget.  Statutory responsibility will always take precedent, leaving little budget left.

Leisure infrastructure should be managed by a dedicated organisation, with a defined budget and focus. I’m not saying the English model is perfect, but it allows the EA to focus on regulation only.

@thegeneralist – I agree. Places like CyB haven’t evolved, which is the product of no budget, focus or vision from the overseeing organisation.

Bonni and teenrat +100

That’s not the cycling industry because as far as I am aware there is no cycling industry in Wales, just tourist adjacent leisure businesses who seem to be looking for some sort of “investment” from the public purse.

And why wouldn’t they look for investment? Add bike shops in the area to the list too. Wales is a great place to go with a bike so all power to them in fighting the closures. There’s no bike manufacturing in Wales apart from Frog who assemble bikes, but ‘let’s rubbish any alignment from riders up to representatives because there’s no factories making bikes’ seems like a ‘with friends like these..’ argument, semantics of what constitutes a cycling industry aside (note ‘Cycling’ not ‘cycle’).

Don’t get me wrong, I loved CyB and had many brilliant days there, but last time I rode Red Bull I realised that objectively speaking it was just….. a bit shit.  Sorry, but it was.

I’ll admit that I actually thought the same on that one!

Which I’d see as a case for MORE investment and more engagement with the volunteer trail builders, not less.

Trail building/ info has moved on. Doing the Red bull dabless was a big deal for me 25 years ago. The rocky gnadgery stuff was great at the time.  But nowadays, with modern bikes it just isn’t one thing nor another.

It’s not about you though, with respect. We need more people coming into riding and TCs are a way to do that. So I don’t care if the TCs aren’t for me or you anymore, they’re for others. Wanting more tech trails to suit bigger bikes is pulling the drawbridge up if the older trails don’t stay there for others.

(fwiw I still love those trails but I’ve also got a trail/XC bike that feels great on them)

I still LOVE a bit of Afan for example but very very rarely get to head there, usually only on Xmas eve. I’m more likely to be found at Antur, BPW and Dyfi (way more at this one). I don’t know the answer though on how to get people out onto more stuff.  Next time the boy is at Dyfi i’m going to ride ClimachX as a day out instead as i much prefer that sort of riding myself.

It’s not about you though, with respect. We need more people coming into riding and TCs are a way to do that. So I don’t care if the TCs aren’t for me or you anymore, they’re for others. Wanting more tech trails to suit bigger bikes is pulling the drawbridge up if the older trails don’t stay there for others.

(fwiw I still love those trails but I’ve also got a trail/XC bike that feels great on them)

I know categorisation of bikes gets some rightful derision, but think it is key here. I’m guessing a 180 travel enduro tank is not fun on these trails/more fun can be had elsehere for similar time and money commitment.

But that assumes everyone has, or aspires to, a big enduro (or E-enduro) as the pinnacle of MTBing.

You can spend just as much money, and get just as much technology and niceness, on an epic evo, tallboy etc as you can on an enduro or megatower. And similarly, the more budget friendly equivilents are going to be on par with each other.

Yes, they will do eachother’s jobs but certainly not as well. Getting people on the bike that suits their riding must be the only thing left for the bike industry to do at this point as non-electric development seems to have stalled in recent years.

CyB is pretty techy for a TC and I reckon it will get more attention again with the rise of eebs, making it less of a chore to pedal round.

It’s very weather proof as well. Brilliant in the wet.

It’s not about you though, with respect. We need more people coming into riding and TCs are a way to do that. So I don’t care if the TCs aren’t for me or you anymore, they’re for others. Wanting more tech trails to suit bigger bikes is pulling the drawbridge up if the older trails don’t stay there for others.

+1.

This is where the Sportive “industry” shot itself in the foot, as organisers competed with each other to come up with the hardest, the toughest, the hilliest, the longest Sportive around.

And then wondered why only 60 people signed up to it.

All the welcoming “hey, come and ride on some roads/trails you wouldn’t normally do, with a load of support and camaraderie and we’ll all have a great time” had disappeared in the quest for ever more ridiculous levels of gnarr.

A good TC should have a mix of everything. Yes, you might think the Green trail is so tame you could ride it on a road bike but Casual Family Robinson on the ropey kids bikes and the cheap hire bike NEED that kind of trail. It can’t all be Super Double Black Gnar.

the quest for ever more ridiculous levels of gnarr.

the hardest, the toughest, the hilliest, the longest Sportive around.

Bloke biased world and it usually goes that way. At the same time, “Why is MTB a niche thing, why’s it not more popular?” “why’s gravel so big?” or “why are gravel bikes the only bikes that are growing in sales recently?*”
There’s a whole load of people riding bikes and getting into bikes and they just aren’t interested in roadie watts or MTB sends. Just riding a bike is a great thing.

*true for the UK at least

Save the blue runs and the forest trails. And the reds.

It’s a shame to see these places die, but, CYB, NyA & Afan are really no different to Glentress or FOD – but crucially none of them have had any level of investment since their original development.

Yes fashions change – but a good trail is still a good trail.

I hope the letter makes the powers that be take some notice. It would be a crying shame to lose these facilities but something needs to change with regards how they’re run.

Using Llandegla as an example, I guess the key difference is that it’s privately owned as opposed to a public space managed by NRW. I don’t particularly like the trails there but as a day out/experience it’s pretty good owing to the decent cafe being a nice place to hang out post ride. Places like C-y-B could surely get somewhere close if some notice is taken of the points raised in the letter.

The Llandegla comparison is an interesting one. It’s hugely popular with families, and essentially it offer pretty much the same things, a café, toilets, a bike shop, but it gets trail maintenance and updated pretty regularly, the food is good, and the bike shop is pretty nice, and it’s rammed every time I go there.

My formative biking years were spent in Welsh TC’s. Losing them would be a travesty!

As someone who rides with my family at both I’m not sure I’d notice if the visitor centres were closed anyway. At NyA the opening hours are hopeless when I’ve been recently, on a Sunday it didn’t open until 11 and shut at 3:30. Not hugely helpful timings, we did make it back around 2:45 and by the time we went to try and get food, it had all gone but for some tired looking cakes. CyB has been open but the food is still generally depleted by the time you get back from a ride and not that inspiring anyway.

The trails at CyB are not that great for us, the blues are good but the transition up to the reds is significant (certainly for any distance of riding), the rocky tech is intimidating and lots of the reds have tougher sections on. I know it well enough to do mix and match routes to get round that but that misses the point of a trail centre really. NyA is much better for the routes but does have the revolting arse of a climb up on the red.

As riding destinations for beginners they’re reasonable but no better than many other options much nearer to most people, for intermediates they’re both flawed and for good riders they don’t really offer enough anymore, all that with fairly naff visitor facilities and broken parking machines. It’s not an attractive sell on either so I can see why they are at risk. Overall I’d probably miss them if they went but only for having a wazz.

The issue with the engagement with the 3rd sector organisations is really simple though. NRW cannot do that yet whilst redundancy consultation is in progress. It would be seen as pre-judging the outcome and any union representative worth their salt would wipe the floor with them if they did it. I very much doubt that NRW would not want to keep the sites open as they have parking assets they would lose and they can take commercial rent if someone else uses the cafe facilities. They know there is CIC type interest if they choose to close them but that would have to be done post consultation outcome. None of that detracts from NRW being dysfunctional but any changes necessary to resolve that are years in the pipeline so aren’t going to impact this process.

+1.

This is where the Sportive “industry” shot itself in the foot, as organisers competed with each other to come up with the hardest, the toughest, the hilliest, the longest Sportive around.

And then wondered why only 60 people signed up to it.

All the welcoming “hey, come and ride on some roads/trails you wouldn’t normally do, with a load of support and camaraderie and we’ll all have a great time” had disappeared in the quest for ever more ridiculous levels of gnarr.

A good TC should have a mix of everything. Yes, you might think the Green trail is so tame you could ride it on a road bike but Casual Family Robinson on the ropey kids bikes and the cheap hire bike NEED that kind of trail. It can’t all be Super Double Black Gnar.

I think this goes for Enduro too…