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  • VW in UK?
  • DrJ
    Full Member

    Well, here is an interesting article – not sure if it is accurate or not, but I don’t think I’ll be buying a diesel any time soon.

    http://www.lng.guru/the-great-euro-6-scam/

    DrJ
    Full Member

    ii, If diesel is now to become overly villified, leading to signigicant financial losses for diesel car owners. What could and/or should be done about that?

    I guess you can try your luck joining a class action suit against the manufacturer. Not sure that is going to be a quick process …

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    interesting read dr J – although just a random blog it certainly would seem that older diesels as well as having a longer life span typically (so less energy used to process the materials at either end) actually produce slightly less harmful shit.

    I feel slightly better about keeping 30 and 15 year old trucks in good working order and not running out tobuy a new one every 3 years now like a good consumer.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Interesting that recently I got a lotbofmpressire to buy a diesel version of a car I was looking at when I had explicitly stated I wanted petrol. I am a cynic when it comes to business and there must be an economic reason for this, they either make more money upfront or more on servicing.

    @Kryton, I don’t see legally you have a way out of your deposit. I would say go ahead and if something is proven against BMW then you can get compensation/refund etc. You may be able to negotiate a lower price now, you may be able to defer delivery or get them to return your deposit on the basis they are implicated. You should be able to get compensation if any cheating means you have to pay higher road tax.

    IMO everyone is at the same game to some degree (as I noted in 1985 the Software company I worked for was cheating at computer language benchmark tests in much the same way as VW). This is not new. The Californian tests are, I believe, more stringent than the Euro tests so the degree and serious of the cheating may not be the same.

    wilburt
    Free Member

    “Riding through stationary jams you can get that weird sooty ‘taste’. Hard to describe but diesel smells/tastes horrible.”

    Yeah – i get that . Smells like unburnt petrol normally…

    Unless your behind my landy in which case smells like chips

    I frequently walk to work but have recently changed my route as the air is properly poisonous, thing is that route is lined with houses and shops young families, shop workers etc they can’t change.

    wilburt
    Free Member

    e mot – nox isn’t tested, see p9

    So theres a pretty easy answer then, a few million independent tests each year should keep them honest!

    wilburt
    Free Member

    i, Do they actually own/use/rely on the use of a car?

    ii, If diesel is now to become overly villified, leading to signigicant financial losses for diesel car owners. What could and/or should be done about that?

    iii, Are car emissions the sole cause of breathing related health issues?

    i Yes, two both from the VW stable both diesel, I use them obviously, but not unecassarily.

    ii ” Overly vilified” subjective, quantify please as “significant loss” what if you compare it to the loss of breathable air then its unlikely to be significant! So no why should we be, they’ll be little loss anyway maybe some resale value but proportionally small.

    iii No but a very significant factor.

    For the record I’ve worked in the motor industry 30 years, so not exactly a car hater but neither a blinkered petrolhead.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Whilst driving back from picking up said new VW engined Skoda diesel, some wag on the radio said he was waiting for a spate of “Have you been missold TDI?” TV ads!

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Lol! We must have been listening to the same station. My drive back was lovely. Interesting article here, which shows Bmw countering the claim and specifying exactly which of thier engines use Urea, and mechanically how the others have passes the Euro tests. If this is to be believed – and why not – I’m fine.

    Jambalaya – agreed.

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-other-manufacturers-deny-cheating

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Remember when the cigarette companies put holes in the their filters and started printing the tar values on their packs? Well that’s what a Euro 6 badge on a diesel amounts to, it’s still a diesel.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    it’s still a diesel.

    But it hasn’t become the end of the world overnight either has it.

    HoratioHufnagel
    Free Member

    Reading the details of this, I think VW will be the ONLY manufacturer that will be found using a “defeat device”.

    No doubt others will have performed various other optimisations and made use of (legal) loopholes in the testing resulting in higher emissions, but I suspect none of them are illegal.

    My guess is that someone high up in the company wanted the 2.0 TDI engine to meet US Nox restrictions so asked the techie team to come up with the solution. At somepoint, someone came up with this software hack as a proof of concept or during a brainstorming session or something (possibly with no intention of it going into production), then management got wind of it, did some testing and put it in the production cars without understanding all of the technical implications.

    In large companies, there is always the problem that bad information never flows upwards – no-one likes giving their manager bad news. Hence, through a chain of incompetence, and people keeping quiet for fear of losing their jobs, this software ended up in the real-world.

    FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    However, I am fairly horrified at this news, it is a VAG diesel and I am appalled at the damage I could have been doing. Will have to think about what we do though now as I swore long ago never to own another hateful bloody petrol powered car.

    Come on really?? I really do not understand the current backlash against VW. We all drive around in vehicles that are bad for the environment, that includes electric cars.

    Its almost a 1st world issue that peoples ego’s have been knocked because before they could drive around in ignorance
    that their metal/plastic box was ‘eco’ so it was ok.

    Cars are bad for the environment.

    Buses and taxis appear to be even worse !

    Edukator
    Free Member

    It might be the end of your world Kryton, check out premature deaths due to automobile pollution. Whilst the numbers killed by cars on our roads has steadily fallen since the seventies the number killed by atmospheric pollution worldwide has increased.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    the number killed by atmospheric pollution worldwide has increased.

    How many of those are proven to be directly related to diesel NOX output, and how many other influences like output from Volcano’s, jet fuel, factories, China, weapons testing…

    etc

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Probably about the same number as proven to be directly killed by smoking: none.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I find the fuss coming from consumers a bit daft.

    How many of them actually knew anything their vehicle’s NOx emissions, or even cared?

    Tell me what the manufacturer’s NOx figures for your car are, without googling, go on, and also how that compares to other cars.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Well, Edukator – why sensationalise content you have zero evidence for?

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Oh there’s plenty of evidence and you don’t have to look very hard. Whilst it’s very difficult to pin one single death on an environmental cause when you start to look at the distribution and demographics of disease there’s lots of evidence to show pollution kills.

    Here’s one to start your browsing.[/url]

    Edit: in answer to Molgrip’s question, it’s a petrol car with a cat so almost no NOx

    HoratioHufnagel
    Free Member

    Well, Edukator – why sensationalise content you have zero evidence for?

    He’s correct. the question you asked didn’t make any sense.

    The risk of getting any disease is based on lots of different factors. With respiratory disease, one of those factors is NOX. If you increase NOX, you increase the chance of someone getting the disease (just as smoking increases the chance of you getting lung/throat cancer etc).

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Oh there’s plenty of evidence and you don’t have to look very hard.

    That is directly related to vehicle contributed NOX causing deaths directly? If its so easy why don’t you post it up?

    lots of evidence to show pollution kills.

    We all know pollution kills, you’re not answering the question I asked and repeated though.

    wobbliscott
    Free Member

    The issue is that VW cheated not necessarily the means by which they cheated. VW have used a defeat device to falsify their figures, other manufacturers are undoubtedly upto similar shinannigans but via different means. I remember something about BMW and where in the system they chose to measure emissions, so selectively choosing where they placed the sensor to get the best possible results.

    All the manufactureres are competing with eachother on these figures, and none have ‘magic’ technology that others don’t have so it is highly likely they are all upto some form of fiddling.

    In anycase, despite the worse than advertised figures, the technologies incorporated into Diesel engines have been effective and have plateau’d the emissions amids a huge increase in the numbers of diesel cars, rather than reduced them as everyone was promised and expected. The biggest scandal here is how diesel was ever sold as a clean fuel in the first place. It was a perfect storm of oil companies looking to get rid of their stock piles of diesel fuel, car companies wanting to sell more cars, and governments despirately scrabbling around looking for ways to reduce CO2 emissions.

    Poeple owning diesel cars will have to pay more for tax as cars are re-banded, the motor industry will have to compensate owners for that somehow, and we’ll all carry on and the next big push will be on petrol engined hybrid cars to replace all our filthy diesels and slighly less filthy petrol engine’d cars. Then the scandal will be about the significant environmental damage the mining of precious metals, manufacture and disposeal of batteries causes.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    HoratioH, its this statement I’m answering to:

    It might be the end of your world Kryton, check out premature deaths due to automobile pollution.

    I’m not denying NOX and increased NOX causes health issues as its widely documented, I’m asking him to prove evidence that automobile pollution has been the sole cause of a premature death (suicide by exhaust notwithstanding). So far, he hasn’t been able to.

    Vis a Vis, I’ve not become a murderer of Mr Jones down the road when I picked up me new motor this morning, any more than the guy who went to work in a factory, or threw away a plastic bag, or in fact had a dump which finds its way out into an oceanic outlet.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Why the aggression, Kryton, There is no sensationalism in my posts and I’m directly answering you question if you bother to rea the articles and followed the links in them as suggested.

    Nox and health[/url]

    5000 death a year in UK due to traffic pollution (including NOx)

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Everyone else can read your questions and my answers Kryton. See top of page.

    You are sounding like a cigarette corporation boss in the 60s.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Wobbliscott I think thats a good post and on the money. Its and ever increasing circle or environment blight on the planet that we cause as Human beings, some more than others.

    That video posted the other day stated it perfectly – something like “we believe technology is reducing our impact on the planet, when in reality all it is doing is increasing it and the power of those at the top of the global industrial triangle”.

    doris5000
    Free Member

    Perhaps the imminent move away from diesel engines will cause a reduced demand for diesel and lower prices? that’s what i’m hoping 😉

    anyway let’s face it, given that – as far as I can see – the average STW poster gets a new car every five years, takes several flights a year, owns n+1 made of posh stuff imported from around the world and has a small IT department powering their living room, the fact that your new car is just as polluting as the one you had in 2002 is probably not the worst of our environmental sins 😐

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Everyone else can read your questions and my answers Kryton.

    Really? Swoon…

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Plus how would everyone who lives in the city centre manage if they couldn’t use their own car?

    There are these two inventions called “Tunnels” and “Trains”. Only utter weirdos commute into central London by car.

    philjunior
    Free Member

    Quite a few pages back now, but:

    I wish you could get open source engine software….

    The reason you increasingly can’t fiddle with your car is that there are legal requirements for the system to be tamper-resistant – physically and electronically (in some markets at least), ironically in this case, this is in order to stop the end user from tuning their car and increasing the emissions.

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    “Plus how would everyone who lives in the city centre manage if they couldn’t use their own car?”

    Already tried and tested …..they have things called carparks on the outskirts of town.

    present space occupancy in the dutch test towns has actually fallen to just 0.2 car per household…..

    gwaelod
    Free Member

    Plus how would everyone who lives in the city centre manage if they couldn’t use their own car?

    It’s a puzzler isnt it

    If only there was some sort of cheap emissions free fast urban vehicle that was so simple to operate a child of 6 or 7 could use it to get to school unaided

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Even a bike has an environmental impact.

    The minimal way to achive that is to walk to work naked, probably. 😀

    gwaelod
    Free Member

    Even a bike has an environmental impact

    sigh

    johndoh
    Free Member

    sigh

    Is the sigh a sigh of resignation & acceptance of the fact being true?

    traildog
    Free Member

    Is the sigh a sigh of resignation & acceptance of the fact being true?

    It’s true but missing the point.

    johndoh
    Free Member

    I agree with that bit. But this is STW isn’t it?

    dragon
    Free Member

    We even have a few rare cities like that in the UK

    speed12
    Free Member

    The issue is that VW cheated not necessarily the means by which they cheated. VW have used a defeat device to falsify their figures, other manufacturers are undoubtedly upto similar shinannigans but via different means. I remember something about BMW and where in the system they chose to measure emissions, so selectively choosing where they placed the sensor to get the best possible results.

    That’s not actually possible – EU and U.S. (and every other emissions legislation test) are sampled from the tailpipe – there isn’t a way of placing the sensor somewhere better.

    Reading the details of this, I think VW will be the ONLY manufacturer that will be found using a “defeat device”.
    No doubt others will have performed various other optimisations and made use of (legal) loopholes in the testing resulting in higher emissions, but I suspect none of them are illegal.

    This a thousand times. Working in both diesel and petrol emissions calibration I’ve calibrated engines for a lot of manufacturers, some mentioned above and can guarantee that none of them have had defeat devices intended to run an entirely different calibration in real world driving than an emissions test. I wouldn’t lie and say that the calibration isnt biased towards the emissions running area, but if you drive the car in that speed load envelope then it will be just as clean as it would be in the test.

    The U.S. test is actually pretty representative and so if you have a car that passes Tier II emissions it will probably be pretty clean in real world driving. European test is rubbish and needs to get changed quickly – hopefully this will all be a catalyst (pun mildly intended) to make that happen sooner.

    (Edited for missing a quote mark…)

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    This a thousand times

    *Relax’s somewhat*

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