VW in UK?

It’s been obvious for ages that the scheme is BS

Not really. It’s just that they’ve been fudging the tests. It’s meant to penalise high CO2 choices, so it’s not pro-rata based on actual amounts.
I get that, but I think the gradient is too steep! And it’s based on BS mpg figures in the EU case, ie
my old 320d did 45mpg real world = 158g CO2 = £180 VED
a new one 53mpg real world = 109g CO2 = £30 VED!

This particular problem was with SCR in cars.

I doubt there are ant TDI lambo’s, ducati or porche.

Trucks maybe, but i suspect the systems in those work properly.

Interestingly Subaru don’t lie about their emissions, in fact the seem to be pessimistic with economy and emissions figures. They also sell most of their cars in the states!

It has been pretty obvious that the big grperman brands have been up to this for years. Just look at the relationship between tax legislation an emissions.

brooess – Member

Dmorts has it IMO – we only have ourselves to blame. If we, customers, demanded proper testing or were willing to pay the price/accept reduced performance of a car which didn’t wreck the environment, manufacturers would be less likely to cheat

It’s human nature to want next years car be better than this years car, unfortunately we’ve defined better as bigger and faster with more toys rather than lighter and more economical. Add to that the me me me attitude to safety where everyone’s been scaling up and things have gotten out of hand. To the point where our 300hp 1.7 tonne hatchbacks aren’t very nice to the environment.

As someone said above this is the trouble with unrestricted capitalism, they don’t supply what we need they build what they can sell.

I don’t blame them for playing the game in any way and I think nothing less of them for doing this. They’re a business who’s main goal is to make money and they’re competing against other car makers who are all no doubt doing exactly the same thing. I can’t see any grounds for these fines people are saying they’ll have imposed, the cars passed the tests!

The only people to blame for this are those who wrote and policed the rules. Either they’re too onerous or they’re not doing their job properly.

For reference, a 5.0 V8 Jag or LR does properly meet Euro 6b emissions standard. Gaseous emissions are easily mopped up by a properly managed catalyst, and the particulate emissions are managed by properly managed combustion. Euro 6c is where it gets tougher as the particulate emission standards will be 10x lower, so will need more work to meet, and the Real Driving Emissions requirements will see mobile test kit fitted to cars by the manufacturers and by authorities to test over a much wider range of speeds and loads than a standard drive cycle.

For info also, for VW to have announced the recall now, they will have been in discussions with EPA and ARB for well over a year. Software and calibration changes across the range of cars they have had to fix will have taken many many months to get fully validated. Normally ARB only go public when the recall is announced, which is after the technical and timing discussions have concluded.

And don’t confuse CO2 and emissions. Often fuel economy and emissions can be traded – and it is highly likely with VW that to meet certain fuel economy targets, they will have traded some off cycle emissions. FE gets sales, people don’t understand emissions.

All manufacturers know the penalty for knowingly contravening legislation. Only the stupid ones actually do it – test methods change with time, and your old cars are in the market for a long time (and in the US the emissions legislation covers key components up to 10 years and 150,000 miles), so the likelihood of getting caught increases with time……

I pay £265 “road tax” per annum for my Toyota Corolla 1.6 petrol while their “cleaner” diesel pay much much lesser … ya, now we know the truth!

It’s not based on ‘cleanliness’ it’s based on CO2 specifically.

I’d bet the new diesel produces less CO2 than your Toyota.

unfortunately we’ve defined better as bigger and faster with more toys rather than lighter and more economical

One reason I bought a Prius was to go lighter and more economical. Was that the right decision now then? 🙂

Often fuel economy and emissions can be traded

CO2 emissions can’t, surely? The combustion of X amount of fuel always produces Y amount of CO2, unless you produce CO instead or spit unburned HCs out of the exhaust.. which isn’t likely these days.

I get that, but I think the gradient is too steep!

It wouldn’t work if it wasn’t steep!

molgrips – Member
One reason I bought a Prius was to go lighter and more economical. Was that the right decision now then?

Brian Griffin the dog from Family Guy drives a Prius too! 😆

I’d bet the new diesel produces less CO2 than your Toyota.

Argee, something to do with CO2 … 🙁

chewkw – Member
All these car brands might be impacted by VW coz VW supply them engines of some sort …

…
Ducati
Ducati Corse
…

Not sure Ducati make many diesel motorbikes 🙂

bensales – Member
Not sure Ducati make many diesel motorbikes

Could be tractor etc? I blame Wiki for the info … 😆

Molgrips, the CO2 vs emissions trade is all about how you condition the catalyst. Even a dirty engine that burns lots of fuel can have a clean tailpipe by using a very effective catalyst and managing it properly. (By dirty I don’t mean that Cortina engine from the 70’s, I mean a modern but comparatively dirty engine). (This is mainly applicable to petrol engines, but can also apply to diesels).

So you’re saying that some fuel is not burned cleanly? Even at light cruising load?

There’s more background to the story here…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11883343/volkswagen-scandal-campaigners-expose-world-biggest-car-company.html

(edit)

For instance…

The pair contacted the Californian Air Resource Board and the US Environment Protection Agency who launched an investigation in May 2014.

There followed months of fencing by Volkswagen who insisted on repeating the tests themselves and claimed that the figures were the result of minor discrepancy software error which could be fixed easily with a recall.

It wasn’t until the EPA and the CARB threatened to withhold certification for its 2016 diesel models that Volkswagen admitted its wrongdoing in early September.

Often fuel economy and emissions can be traded – and it is highly likely with VW that to meet certain fuel economy targets, they will have traded some off cycle emissions. FE gets sales, people don’t understand emissions.

Isn’t the VW thing mostly about SCR though?
SCR doesn’t have any great affect on economy, as it’s simply injecting urea into the exhaust, although they may of been fiddling with the EGR at the same time, which would affect economy.
However the big benefit of SCR is you don’t have to rely on as much EGR, so you should be able to increase fuel economy. I know when Euro 4 came in for trucks, EGR only engines had a 5-10% fuel economy hit compared to SCR equipped engines that didn’t require any EGR.
The only major change to trucks for Euro 5, was Nox levels had to be monitored, which added a fairly expensive sensor (last Merc one I done was £300, and a Renault one £800).
Euro 6 trucks brought in the need for EGR, DPF and SCR on pretty much everything.

My personal guess is VW reduced the SCR dosage to increase service intervals.
Truck AdBlu is a diluted urea solution needing refilled fairly often, whereas most car manufacturers are running a concentrated form of urea which should last between service intervals.

So you’re saying that some fuel is not burned cleanly? Even at light cruising load?

He is. With an ideal petrol engine (ignoring lean burn engines), the fuel/air ratio always remains the same regardless of speed/load, however unless you have absolute perfect conditions, there will always be unburnt fuel aka Hydro Carbons. The only difference is the quantity which varies according to engine speed/load.

A catalyst at working temperature will quite happily deal with HCs, and will actually help it warm up, and combine the HCs with the various other gases, to produce less harmful/harmless gases/vapour.
The issue is getting the catalyst up to temperature, and maintaining that temperature. Mount it near the engine, it warms up quicker, however you risk overheating it, mount it further away, it takes longer to warm up and might not even warm up fully unless driven hard.
Everything regarding current emission levels is a fine balancing act.

This is great – not. I’ve a few test drives booked next week and they’re all diesels. 2 of them are VAG. Should I sack off the idea of diesel altogether (no,I don’t do the mileage but I do tow a caravan) or wait for “further revelations” and see which way the emissions blow………?

There’s a hybrid Passat that can tow a caravan…

With an ideal petrol engine

Good post, thanks – what about diesel though? I know they have cats, but then I guess under normal load (which is a low fraction of max) almost all the fuel is burned…?

I’m just about to buy a 4 yr old golf or passat. Dealers reluctant to budge on price last week but will this change things? Is it worth waiting? Don’t want to end up with a car type negative equity situation!

I still think that this is trade tarrifs by the backdoor. same as the yanks have ill treated BP, Standard Chartered, HSBC and loads of other non US companies for breaching their shitty unilateral sanctions and what not. they do it as revenge for the EU picking up Microsoft and google etc for their supposed anti competitive behaviour.

what would you rather a VW or a Chrysler? US cars are utter cack. too many state lawyers on ego trips.

what about diesel though?

I’ll admit, that although I spend most of my time working on diesels, I’ve never really paid much attention to the finer workings of the combustion/emissions chemistry!
With petrol’s you need to know to diagnose faults, however with modern diesels you have to rely more on the built in diagnostics, as they’ll usually still run perfectly fine even if something is faulty.

However, traditionally diesels speed was purely controlled by the amount of fuel, varying from a very lean burn, to a rich burn (i.e. black smoke territory!). As things have progressed, first EGR was introduced to reduce NOx, as to prevent NOx being produced, you just need to keep the combustion temperature below six hundred and something degrees. By reintroducing the exhaust gases, you contaminate the air charge, which in turn reduces the amount of oxygen available to burn, and reduces the peak combustion temperature.
Then throttle valves were introduced as a way of limiting the air intake, again less oxygen, lower combustion temperature, however with a diesel you still need to ensure you have enough pressure within the cylinder so you are limited with how much you can restrict fresh air going into the engine. With a petrol, you just need enough air and fuel to get enough power, as you have a nice spark to ignite the mix, but with a diesel, you need enough gases to compress and get hot enough to ignite the injected fuel.
Diesel cats do a similar job to a petrol cats, however they can’t do anything with particulates. They simply pass through the cat, and either out the exhaust, or into the DPF if one is fitted.

To give you an idea of the amount of technology on a Euro 5 compliant diesel, a Merc Sprinter has, MAF sensor, EGR valve, EGR cooler bypass valve, Throttle valve, 7 different temperature sensors (air filter, intercooler, exhaust manifold, pre DPF, post DPF, coolant, fuel), 4 pressure sensors (atmospheric, manifold, exhaust pressure, DPF differential pressure), wide band lambda sensor, catalyst, DPF, along with all the other critical bits that the engine won’t run without – fuel pre-delivery pressure, fuel rail pressure, fuel volume control valve, fuel pressure control valve (they run in pressure control to warm the fuel up quicker, then switch to volume control to reduce wasted power), crank and cam position sensors, turbo actuators, and injectors.
So as you can see, modern diesels are far from simple, with pretty much every aspect monitored. Get any one of those bits playing up, and it can be a major headache. However you can understand just how easy it is for software to adjust how all that interacts, and manipulate emission levels.

@thisisnotaspoon, lots of Porsche diesels sold Panamera, Cayenne, Macan

I used to feel so cheeky altering the ECU mapping on my Caterham at MOT time, so that it would pass the emissions test….it turns out that I was just a pioneering trendsetter after all 🙂

Wait another month and it’s going to be a great time to buy a new Diesel.

What VW got up to ( and probably everyone else) was just plain wrong, but “pot kettle black ” Uncle Sam! A whole nation of retards, driving around in unbelievable gas guzzlers ( read the rolling coal story pls) and going to war at the drop of a hat if the price of gas goes up 10 cents. Me thinks the European makes were getting too big a market share for the failing US motor manufacturers. ……..or maybe not if the CIA are listening.

pot kettle black

Hugely so.

VW’s main mistake is being German.

As much as we all know the US bias towards protectionism and the fact that their manufacturers are far behind in diesel technology faking pollution test results is total madness ! Story in ores today that whilst German and EU regulators are “up in arms” they’ve been lobbying to keep simplistic testing as it suits their manufacturers

BMW now being dragged in. To be honest as an asthmatic if this kills diesel engines for good outside of a few specific requirements then hurrah,it couldn’t come quick enough.

A move back to petrol will help the UK, as we mostly refine petrol and buy our diesel from overseas.

One thing is for certain…
Diesel isn’t going to go away any time soon

Interesting prog on the gogglebox last night. Apart from aviation, and let’s call it about 50% of personal use motorcars, virtually every single engine out there is diesel.

Might be a small shift back to turbo-charged petrol for personal use. And maybe a continued trend in some city buses moving in the direction of diesel-electric hybrid, unless some politician starts banning ICE vehicles from city centres.

And maybe a continued trend in some city buses moving in the direction of diesel-electric hybrid, unless some politician starts banning ICE vehicles from city centres.

Just city busses? Or were you talking only about diesel?

I would have thought it made sense for the entire (or something close to it) personal motoring sector to move toward hybrid TBH (seeing as a viable countrywide infrastructure for electic motoring is about a brazillion years away).

BMW now being dragged in

Oh great, I pick up my new BMW diesel tomorrow morning. Thank **** its on PCP and has a guaranteed future value, assuming its not recalled and I get a new one.

Diesel isn’t going to go away any time soon

For cars I think it will, even before the scandal the French, Norwegians and us Brits were looking into banning them from cities and also Italy are reviewing their health risks. I think a ban will now be pushed through on diesels faster and the car makers will have little comeback.

This is quote from back in January in the FT:

“Having long been seen as a ‘clean fuel’, diesel is now seeing something of a backlash in Europe,” says Stuart Pearson, analyst at Exane BNP Paribas.

Couldn’t give a hoot about the eco nonsense. If my car tax goes up though I will be miffed.

I’ve recently placed an order for a 1.4 TSI VW, which I now assume is going be in stronger demand than before (and I hope delivery isn’t delayed)!

On the plus-side, demand for my 3.2 V6 Golf with a supercharger strapped on to it is now bound to be much more popular on the used market. 😉

all the spangly new routemasters Borris paid squillions for , are no longer hybrid as the batteries have failed, there is no warranty and they are now diesel only, and he was seeking an exemption because the engines are outdated and exceed modern EU limits

Id love to see diesels banned from cities, they are incredibly polluting and a massive contributor to heart disease, asthma etc etc, causing premature death and costing NHS ££££

Couldn’t give a hoot about the eco nonsense killing people.

Fixed it.

Kimbers +1

id love to see cars banned from cities…. but thats not going to happen is it…..

I noticed in Tallinn that there were few cars on the road and few parked up. Then I found out that all Tallinn ratepayers get free public transport. That could be a start or a Livingston-type massive drop in the fares.

id love to see cars banned from cities…. but thats not going to happen is it…..

Rightly so. Disaster for businesses as a very large number of people would do their shopping outside plus there would end a big move of companies/employers to where you could drive.

“Rightly so. Disaster for businesses as a very large number of people would do their shopping outside plus there would end a big move of companies/employers to where you could drive.”

and that makes it right because ? as i said – id like to see it.

I do recall when they pedestrianised dundee city centre they claimed the same – folks would go out of city – when infact the opposite has happened….

lets all rush back to petrol and ban diesel to get rid of the nasty NOx…

then let all the extra CO2 gets to work on the climate. NOx will seem like a small problem when your up to your eyeballs in H2O

Well we need to make petrol more fuel efficient in real world situations. Plus look at alternatives.

All city centers should be pedestrianised IMO, any that aren’t are just backward (yes Aberdeen looking at you). Cardiff has been for decades and as a result is a nice place.