I don’t really have much of an opinion about gun ownership in America.

You probably should have left it at that.

do you know how many people were killed by legally owned semi-automatic rifles before Michael Ryan went on the rampage – NONE, do you know how many were killed with LEGAL pistols before Thomas Hamilton? Again NONE

Isnt that the point though?

The first time something bad happened we did the responsible thing as a society and made steps to stop it happening? rather than doing nothing and waiting to see if it happens again

I kind of agree BUT you probably could get one if you were ‘desperate’ to (not saying you are lol)

You could get one if you try hard enough but you have to have a considerable ammount of money and dodgy contacts to get hold of one so makes it a damn sight harder than walking into walmart

Watch Dope on netflix to see how truly **** up the US is, its like Mexico. Poverty that looks third world, rampant drug crime and Police Officers who think they are still over in Iraq.

Watch Dope on netflix to see how truly **** up the US is, its like Mexico.

Cop in the first episode made me laugh, when talking about chasing dealers and getting shot at said “if I can stop one kid from smoking weed for the first time it will all be worth it”

no different to them than a STW’er owning many different bikes. Different guns for different things, or collectors like we might collect stamps or something, just a hobby.

Really? So, an armed intruder is threatening my children in my own home, and you think that adrenaline fuelled aggression using one of my bikes or my stamp collection is as dangerous (to everyone) as using my locked and loaded shotgun?

globalti – Member
My brother in Michigan sometimes sends me long emails agonising about several aspects of life in the USA, mostly his wife’s irrational behaviour and insecurity and Americans’ love of guns. He reckons the Wild West is still fresh in the psyches of Americans, most of whom are only a few generations descended from Europeans who fled persecution or poverty to establish a new life, which they did by killing indigenous Americans and taking their land by force.

Thats true to some extent, even me being an expat and schooled in the UK’s system we still had lectures about founding fathers and American Revolution.. it is really ingrained in their society. (we’re talking late 70’s/early 80’s schooling in my case)

Jakester – Member
deker – Member
My other hobbies include firearms which people keep trying to clamp down on, do you know how many people were killed by legally owned semi-automatic rifles before Michael Ryan went on the rampage – NONE, do you know how many were killed with LEGAL pistols before Thomas Hamilton? Again NONE

The easiest way to make the place safer isn’t to target legally owned firearms but to actually enforce a proper sentence on the criminals using them

Genuine question, what sort of “firearms” do you own and why?

Aside from sporting pistols for target shooting and a bolt-action rifle or a breech loading shotgun for vermin and game shooting, I can’t see any justifiable reason for owing a gun.

EDIT: and to be honest I find the latter two pretty difficult to objectively justify.

ok so first, sporting pistols are banned now (you can legally get modified ones where they have a fixed stock and longer barrel so not sure if that’s what you meant). Also with the exception of smallbore rifles (generally rimfire) we can only have bolt action rifles in this country (this never bothers me as it’s all I’ve shot as a civilian).

I have shotguns for both clay and game, clays ones are generally heavier as you may shoot at up to 200 in a day where game ones will be lighter as you could be walking miles and only firing 2 or 3 rounds (so less repetitive impact on your shoulder),I have rifles for both target and game, and again there are different weights and calibres depending on usage, shooting isn’t as straight forward as people think (just like cycling) there are many different calibres and aren’t always interchangeable ie you wouldn’t want someone who does pest control to go out using a rifle designed for deer so you will find owners who have more than one, indeed 4 or 5 for multi-discipline, some ranges are indoor and under 50 yards and some outdoor are between 100 yards and 1000 yards so you would use whichever is more suitable to the discipline (hence the reason I have different calibres cost and accuracy).

At the risk of being hounded for both being a gun owner and admitting I shoot game (I have actually been confronted by people who think meat wasn’t an animal) I’ll leave what I have at that rather than go into detail of each individual rifle.

However one part of your statement is odd “and to be honest I find the latter two pretty difficult to objectively justify.”, my question is why? why is me wanting to own guns and shoot responsibly any different to you wanting to ride a bike on or off the road and drivers\walkers thinking it should be banned (note I’m not comparing shooting to cycling just people wanting hobbies banned)? I get background checked every 5 years and I’d be the first to hand them in if I thought I was a risk or have I misunderstood and you referred to shooting game (if you’re vegetarian then I understand)?

I have had a license long enough to have seen changes due to Michael Ryan (which didn’t affect me) and Thomas Hamilton (which did affect me) and in all this time I have never had an accident or used them in any way that put others at risk yet I (and other shooters) are persecuted in the press. After Dunblane an MP was live on TV and actually accused the British olympic shooting squad of being murderers in waiting!

Deker

I don’t care what Americans do to each other while in the motherland, they accept that it is acceptable to have mass and indiscriminate shootings of innocent human beings?

I have no plans to visit the good old US of A and have told my kids just don’t bother. Let em get on.

why is me wanting to own guns and shoot responsibly any different to you wanting to ride a bike

It’s not and this is what most people conveniently never talk about (on BOTH sides of the argument).

Shooting guns is fun. Simple as that. It’s target practise and something we see worthy enough to include in the Olympics and celebrate when we win gold medals in shooting related events.

Also, I absolutely hate when people say “discounting suicides”, as if they just don’t matter.

When making that argument, no one is saying that suicide ‘doesn’t matter’, just that conflating two different data points to try add weight to a ‘gun violence’ debate is wrong. Suicide is tragic but it’s not really ‘gun violence’ in the way that most people would understand it. There are plenty of countries with exceptionally high suicide rates that don’t have gun control problems, Japan being one example.

Making broad sweeping generalizations is for **** morons…. sorry to say.

It’s interesting that no one has a problem with this. If I said ‘all Nigerians were f—ing morons’ I’m pretty sure I’d get flamed (and rightly so). Quite why it’s acceptable to be so utterly ignorant and biggoted about Americans is just more evidence that this kind of debate is less motivated by objective discourse and more by it being fashionable to attack the great imperial aggressor.

As for the best way to reduce gun violence in the US, almost certainly that would be to reduce the crippling wealth inequality that it does suffer from.

Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership levels in the entire world, why is it then that they also have one of the lowest rates of gun violence/homicide in the world?

Really? So, an armed intruder is threatening my children in my own home, and you think that adrenaline fuelled aggression using one of my bikes or my stamp collection is as dangerous (to everyone) as using my locked and loaded shotgun?

Of course it’s not the same 🙄 the point I was making was that to some Americans owning guns is perfectly normal and natural. Like us owning bikes and having stamp collections. Not sure how that’s hard to understand ?

geetee1972 – Member

Shooting guns is fun. Simple as that. It’s target practise and something we see worthy enough to include in the Olympics and celebrate when we win gold medals in shooting related events.

Unfortunately the liberal agenda has shafted that too as it’s been left out of the 2022 Commonwealth Games at Birmingham and replaced with cricket!

Deker – a reasoned response.

I’m not against firearms, I grew up on a farm and handled shotguns from an early age. I now have no need for any firearm as I don’t hunt or partake in pest control or do target shooting so why possess any? Even with them in a secure cabinet as required by law they are vulnerable to theft (I don’t know how long the cabinets are required to resist attempts at opening). For the vast majority of people in this country this will be the case.

If I lived somewhere like Svarlbard or northern Canada then I’d certainly have a firearm, I think it’s mandated in the former if you are a resident.

A lot of the illegal gun ownership in this country is about intimidation and control which isn’t that different from the NRA’s attitude in the States – “The only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun”.

In this country if there’s a major arson incident we look at ways of reducing the possibility and risk of that happening again, making it harder to obtain the petrol and matches . In the States they’ll sell you cheap gas and offer you a lighter because the matches aren’t efficient.

Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership levels in the entire world, why is it then that they also have one of the lowest rates of gun violence/homicide in the world?

Because they receive military training (in the most part) and are issued with a firearm and a ammunition that is regularly audited by the government and other guns require proper licence and background checks etc. You can only buy ammo for a gun registered to you.

So basically people are taught how to use them and they are careful about who is allowed one and ammunition, as apposed to being able to buy a box of ammo with your cigarettes from the local convenience store…

I also imagine there is less social/economic problems than the USA

he liberal agenda

Wait, are you actually an american?

the liberal agenda

??WTF are you one about?
Meanwhile back in the fact based world
1. Its an optional sport
2. no decision has been made yet
3. The real reason its at risk is the lack of appropriate facilities nearby to host it
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/commonwealth-games/42458483

Junkyard – lazarus
the liberal agenda
??WTF are you one about?
Meanwhile back in the fact based world
1. Its an optional sport
2. no decision has been made yet
3. The real reason its at risk is the lack of appropriate facilities nearby to host it
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/commonwealth-games/42458483

It’s never been an optional sport, Bisley is about the same distance as London and that’s being used for the games! but never let facts get in the way of a good point

thanks for reading the link and googling the claim “its always been in” and providing the proof 🙄

never let facts get in the way of a good point

Oh the irony

https://www.thecgf.com/sports/sports_index.asp#

click on shooting and let me know what you discover 😉

Junkyard – lazarus
thanks for reading the link and googling the claim “its always been in” and providing the proof

never let facts get in the way of a good point
Oh the irony
https://www.thecgf.com/sports/sports_index.asp#

click on shooting and let me know what you discover

OK I hold my hand up, I honestly thought it was permanent after the break, must have read it wrong in the magazine, we have some VERY good clay guys over here and the related magazines have been busy with stories.

Regarding the original link I’ve come to be very wary of BBC reporting in the last year so I admit I didn’t read it BUT I do stand behind the reasoning is rubbish, Bisley is world class and regularly holds international shooting competitions

Fair play lets move on
I agree that the BBC is getting poorer and if Birmingham can do the cycling in london then they could host the shooting – they dont want to for whatever reason

[video]https://youtu.be/VZrFVtmRXrw[/video]

I get background checked every 5 years and I’d be the first to hand them in if I thought I was a risk or have I misunderstood and you referred to shooting game (if you’re vegetarian then I understand)?

FWIW, I’ve been vegetarian for over 25 years and have no issues with you hunting so long as it’s for food rather than teh lulz.

I have no plans to visit the good old US of A and have told my kids just don’t bother. Let em get on.

You’re missing out. America is a big place, and a lot of it is awesome.

Sure, it has its problems and areas that you wouldn’t want to visit at night or indeed ever, but show me a country that doesn’t. We’re hardly poster children either.

I’m fairly sure there already are laws stopping you from carrying a knife around town and restricting their sale, but y’know, carry on with that argument if you want.

Yes, there are, I usually carry a knife with me, and while I’ve never been stopped while carrying a knife with a locking blade, I do now normally carry a knife that’s compliant with Danish knife laws, which are stricter than in the UK, just to avoid any issues.
People who carry a knife to commit illegal acts in the UK, will carry an illegal knife because they don’t care about being legal or not, they’re carrying a weapon, not a tool, and will just shoplift or steal from someone’s home, or just take from their own home.

Cougar – Moderator
FWIW, I’ve been vegetarian for over 25 years and have no issues with you hunting so long as it’s for food rather than teh lulz.

Definitely not for lulz, I don’t do it that often but it’s always for meat that will be used (this is controversial I know but I prefer to know that the animal has had a chance at being ‘free’ rather than in a barn-truck and then killed), paper targets are my main quarry 😀

just to add the vegetarian comment wasn’t a dig (and hope you didn’t take it as one), I appreciate people don’t eat meat so that’s why I added it.

replaced with cricket!

Ha, like cricket isn’t also a form of target practise!

Because they receive military training (in the most part) ……..

I also imagine there is less social/economic problems than the USA

To be honest I think that the only part of that answer that matters is the last part; the real issue the US has is the massive levels of wealth inequality.

I’ve just looked at the Wikipedia entry for gun ownership in Switzerland and there’s no memntion of anything you’ve cited in your post; yes gun ownership is regulated but the regulations don’t look massively different to those in a lot of US states. There isn’t any mention of mandatory training though ofcourse they still have conscription. The problem is that military training probably isn’t any protection against gun crime.

But that’s less important because I asked the question, why does Switzterland not have the same problem and I think we have the answer to that with your last point.

I don’t do it that often but it’s always for meat that will be used (this is controversial I know

Dunno as it’s particularly controversial in any sort of rational sense. Better that than having someone else do the wetwork for you, IMHO.

just to add the vegetarian comment wasn’t a dig (and hope you didn’t take it as one),

I didn’t read it as a dig, rather as a generalisation, hence my reply. But that may well have been inference on my part.

whitestone – Member
Deker – a reasoned response.

I’m not against firearms, I grew up on a farm and handled shotguns from an early age. I now have no need for any firearm as I don’t hunt or partake in pest control or do target shooting so why possess any? Even with them in a secure cabinet as required by law they are vulnerable to theft (I don’t know how long the cabinets are required to resist attempts at opening). For the vast majority of people in this country this will be the case.

If I lived somewhere like Svarlbard or northern Canada then I’d certainly have a firearm, I think it’s mandated in the former if you are a resident.

A lot of the illegal gun ownership in this country is about intimidation and control which isn’t that different from the NRA’s attitude in the States – “The only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun”.

In this country if there’s a major arson incident we look at ways of reducing the possibility and risk of that happening again, making it harder to obtain the petrol and matches . In the States they’ll sell you cheap gas and offer you a lighter because the matches aren’t efficient.

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written there, I have just went through a renewal and up until last year I was going to sell what I had and not bother renewing my license as I had started to enjoy the hobby\sport less, after joining a different local club I started enjoying the target shooting a lot more than I had in the previous 3 years so I renewed, if I hadn’t as you have I would have saw no reason to keep the firearms and in fact it would have been very difficult to justify my reasons to the police to actually qualify for the renewal.

I personally think we have the licensing pretty much spot on over here and actually think there are other areas that could do with tightening up (I wont mention them) but I think some of the UK press do too much scaremongering and make the none shooting public think that it’s very easy to get a license and that very little in the way of checks happen (thus causing a bit of panic), yes a few people slip through BUT these people have generally been deceitful when applying and are probably the type who would go to equal extreme measures elsewhere to cause their damage.

Swiss gun ownership is massively regulated the figures are high because most Swiss adults serve in the army and are obliged to keep their guns but not ammo at home , they can buy keep their gun after discharge. To obtain a carry permit they need to pass written, practical and mental health tests . You can only transport a gun to and from the range otherwise. So a high level of massively supervised sometimes compulsory gun ownership the majority of whom are subject to military discipline , control of the ammo which for many is not stored at home with the gun.
Plus of course a particularly homogeneous healthy and wealthy population with a very law abiding population . Switzerland is the only country where I have been challenged by a policeman for riding on an otherwise deserted pavement.

sweeping generalisations

I make an exemption for the Americans because of their rampant exceptionalism. Most other countries on the planet recognise their problems, even corrupt narco states – whilst “Dope” perfectly highlights the way in which the Americans take pride in the way they do things – in the behaviour and policies that are undermining their own society.

And they think that they are the greatest country in the world.

They’re not alone in that thought either.

but unlike us they are wrong 😉

Heh.

I just don’t get, a few thousand die from drug over doses…. declare war on drugs…. tens of thousands die from guns….. lets buy more guns to protect ourselves and tool our police up like special forces…. but no war on guns.

Boggles my **** mind. It’s a special kind of stupid, that I swear I’ve never seen outside of the US… even with Brexit.

I won’t make any pronouncements on gun ownership, whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing, I’ll just ask why is there so much gun crime in the US?

Easy access, machismo culture, wealth disparity, hyper competitive culture, state sponsored violence (death penalty and wars) encourage population to solve issues with violence… and poor access to mental healthcare.

+ 1 to what Tom said above. Put simply: For many Americans, the gun is the solution to all their problems.

When making that argument, no one is saying that suicide ‘doesn’t matter’, just that conflating two different data points to try add weight to a ‘gun violence’ debate is wrong. Suicide is tragic but it’s not really ‘gun violence’ in the way that most people would understand it. There are plenty of countries with exceptionally high suicide rates that don’t have gun control problems, Japan being one example.

Every study shows that easy access to guns has pushed up US suicide rates. It’s a big issue and part of the problem.

Really? So, an armed intruder is threatening my children in my own home, and you think that adrenaline fuelled aggression using one of my bikes or my stamp collection is as dangerous (to everyone) as using my locked and loaded shotgun?

Shooting intruders is a sticking plaster solution to the real problem, in reality it just means people will come to rob you better equipped for the job.

But to reinforce the point about why the US gets a tough ride is the way they just shrug off these things compared to say

Toyota “put sales over safety and profit over principle,” according to FBI Assistant Director George Venizelos.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-pay-12b-hiding-deadly-unintended-acceleration/story?id=22972214
By that logic selling guns to people with mental health issues should be hammered, selling guns that are only useful for mass killing too. Not conducting any checks on somebody buying guns etc.

Shooting intruders is a sticking plaster solution to the real problem, in reality it just means people will come to rob you better equipped for the job.

Very true, criminals dont care about the law or regulations but will adjust their MO to make sure they are protected/get what they want.

Supposedly after the great train robery (no guns used only koshs) when all the crims saw people got 30 years for robbery without a gun… they started carrying one as the only reason they didnt before was because if caught the sentence would generally be less

wiggles – Member

Supposedly after the great train robery (no guns used only koshs) when all the crims saw people got 30 years for robbery without a gun… they started carrying one as the only reason they didnt before was because if caught the sentence would generally be less

And 3 strikes your out caused no detectable reduction in repeat offending, but did cause an escalation in the seriousness of repeat offences- because if you’re going down for that 3rd strike, might as well make it worthwhile- and if you know you’ll go down if you’re caught, you’ll do more to avoid it.

I find it interesting that people seem to see a separation between legal and illegal gun ownership in the States, when of course one to a large degree fuels the other…

The vast majority of firearms purchased in the US are bought and registered legally, but the process of buying a gun is relatively quick and convenient (depending on the state) and of course that doesn’t prevent them being stolen and then sold on the black market.

I do think that we in the UK have actually gotten the sale, licencing and control of firearms about right, you can purchase and own rifles and shotguns for genuine sporting/hunting use, the conditions for ownership in the UK exceed the EU Firearms Directive, we’ve one of the lowest gun crime rates in the world, our police do not need to carry firearms on a routine basis, and the number of mass shootings we’ve experienced can be counted on one hand… We’ve never “banned” guns we have simply “controlled” them, but even the idea of (relatively weak) enhancement of the control of firearms seems to get shouted down in America…

Culturally we are still miles apart in that respect it’s one of the few positive things about the UK to perhaps be proud of; that we have actually managed to apply and maintain control of the risks posed by guns within our own borders so well without, resorting to an outright ban…

geetee1972 – Member

Suicide is tragic but it’s not really ‘gun violence’ in the way that most people would understand it. There are plenty of countries with exceptionally high suicide rates that don’t have gun control problems, Japan being one example.

I didn’t say it’s “gun violence”- but there’s no question that it makes it easier and quicker to kill yourself, and that the easier it is the more likely it is that people do. The argument that “people will just find another method” or “people kill themselves in places that don’t have guns” doesn’t stand up- changes in drug availability prove that. (getting enough paracetemol to kill yourself is still just a case of visiting a few chemists- the pack size reduction only doubled that number, it didn’t make it impossible. But it slashed the suicide and harm rate by almost half, just by making it inconvenient)

I know it’s illogical. But then, hands up everyone who thinks people who commit suicide are always being logical. Making it a bit more inconvenient can be enough. Removing a preferred method can be enough- some people rather than saying “I will commit suicide by some method” think “I will commit suicide by this method”

I think that if there were as many guns in circulation and the purchasing was just as easy in the UK… We would have exactly the same hun problem here as America does for exactly the same reasons too.