Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 213 total)
  • US gun violence
  • ninfan
    Free Member

    No I think the US does have a problem with gun crime but I think the motivation for focusing on it is part of a much broader anti US sentiment that seems to be very fashionable these days.

    Well said, it’s a sentiment that’s been spectacularly popular on the British political left for years – see John Pilger as as example.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    So do you think it’s safe to give somebody a gun who is scared of filling their car up?
    Have gun deaths dropped?
    Have they done anything about the fact a normal guy managed to kill so many with legal guns?
    Nope.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    So do you think it’s safe to give somebody a gun who is scared of filling their car up?

    Why do you think it’s unsafe? Do you think they’re going to go on a rampage just because they have a gun?

    Knock out suicides (they’re going to find a way anyway) drug/gang violence (they’re going to get guns anyway) and domestics (he’s going to kill her anyway) and the figures look remarkably different

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    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Knock out suicides (they’re going to find a way anyway) drug/gang violence (they’re going to get guns anyway) and domestics (he’s going to kill her anyway) and the figures look remarkably different

    Suicides – Proof? Easily said that but it’s not true
    https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/

    Firearm Access is a Risk Factor for Suicide
    Every study that has examined the issue to date has found that within the U.S., access to firearms is associated with increased suicide risk.

    What is the proportion of illegal weapons? How does it impact on the use of firearms and tactics of the police?
    Domestic Violence?

    In America, a majority of fatal domestic violence is committed with firearms; in turn, gun violence against women in America is inextricably linked to domestic violence. At least 52 percent of American women killed with guns are killed by intimate partners or family members. And women are 16 times more likely to be killed with guns in the U.S. than in other developed countries. Despite impressions from media coverage, mass shootings in which at least four people were killed with a gun are also typically acts of domestic or family violence: an Everytown analysis of every mass shooting between 2009-16 found that 54 percent were committed by intimate partners or family.

    https://everytownresearch.org/issue/domestic-violence/
    that one is why people with DV problems are restricted from owning guns in some areas.

    Anyway carry on BS

    avdave2
    Full Member

    At Christmas we were invited to stop over at a friend ranch near Portland

    within that bedroom there was a sniper rifle and scope on tripod and a hand gun

    all loaded and ready to go

    It does seem mad but bear in mind the thing they were most likely to kill you with was parked on the drive. Over 37,000 road deaths in the US in 2016 compared to an estimated 11,000 firearm homicides. Firearm deaths overall tend to match road deaths but they are people who choose to shoot themselves.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Is there anything that isn’t a left wing conspiracy?

    perchypanther
    Free Member

    Is there anything that isn’t a left wing conspiracy?

    Anti-clockwise air travel?

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    When you include 99.9% of the world as left wing it has to be

    akira
    Full Member

    It’s fairly simple, lots of guns means a lot of people get shot. All the guns in the hands of criminals were at one point legal firearms, there isn’t a big company making guns to sell to criminals.

    Klunk
    Free Member

    Well said, it’s a sentiment that’s been spectacularly popular on the British political left for years – see John Pilger as as example.

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    just the left, all stories from today mail online

    wobbliscott
    Free Member

    It’s a downward spiral really. People don’t feel safe (which I find amazing), which means they get a gun, which means lots of people have guns, which makes people feel less safe, which means people get more guns and bigger guns, which make people feel even less safe. Then one day you have an altercation with someone in the street and instead of a verbal altercation, maybe turning to a bit of fisty-cuffs, because people have guns they get drawn and waved about and ultimately this will result in people squeezing off a few rounds and people dyeing. It is inevitable. By the pure fact you carry a gun increases your chances of getting shot.

    guns in the hands of angry and scared people is never ever a good thing.

    What I find amazing is the trigger happiness of the authorities. I was shocked when in the aftermath of the Boston Marathon bombings the Police allowed an open shoot out with the bad guys to happen in a suburb with people having to take cover in their won homes as bullets came wizzing in through their windows and walls. Unbelievable incompetence. They should have contained the situation and tracked them out of any built up area before they had their Spaghetti Western shoot out. Just utterly bonkers. They all must imagine they’re in some sort of movie or something. Living out some kind of fantasy in their heads.

    deker
    Free Member

    mikewsmith – Member
    http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
    Why can’t you? a prevalence of guns is the issue. It leads to more guns with people who are scared of filling their petrol tanks, it leads to cops with more reason to shoot unarmed australian women in their PJ’s, it leads to more and more dead people

    Because it’s the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn’t a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.

    You can’t just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

    IdleJon
    Full Member

    Because it’s the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn’t a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.

    You can’t just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

    Or a gun, if they had access to them?

    deker
    Free Member

    akira – Member
    It’s fairly simple, lots of guns means a lot of people get shot. All the guns in the hands of criminals were at one point legal firearms, there isn’t a big company making guns to sell to criminals.

    That’s a massive over simplification (and blatantly not true), outside of the USA most illegal firearms are imported, easily proved by the fact that we’re not allowed the types being used over here (and never have been), a lot are ex military weapons that have never been in the hands of a LEGAL gun owner.

    My other hobbies include firearms which people keep trying to clamp down on, do you know how many people were killed by legally owned semi-automatic rifles before Michael Ryan went on the rampage – NONE, do you know how many were killed with LEGAL pistols before Thomas Hamilton? Again NONE

    The easiest way to make the place safer isn’t to target legally owned firearms but to actually enforce a proper sentence on the criminals using them

    prawny
    Full Member

    Because it’s the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn’t a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.

    You can’t just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

    I’m fairly sure there already are laws stopping you from carrying a knife around town and restricting their sale, but y’know, carry on with that argument if you want.

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    You can’t just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

    In a discussion about the relationship between gun ownership and deaths from bullets being fired from said guns, they’re not unrelated statistics I’m afraid.

    deker
    Free Member

    IdleJon – Member
    Because it’s the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn’t a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.
    You can’t just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point
    Or a gun, if they had access to them?

    quiet possibly but it would be an illegally held firearm that no amount of licensing (or banning) would stop it getting into their hands after all murder is illegal and that didn’t stop them, I was showing that people will kill and its not the tool used that needs banning

    deker
    Free Member

    deadlydarcy – Member
    You can’t just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point
    In a discussion about the relationship between gun ownership and deaths from bullets being fired from said guns, they’re not unrelated statistics I’m afraid.

    errr yes they are unrelated if the bullet didn’t come from the same ‘said’ gun and no amount of typing “I’m afraid” changes that, you’re obviously allergic to facts and have a preconceived argument

    deker
    Free Member

    prawny – Member
    Because it’s the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn’t a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.
    You can’t just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

    I’m fairly sure there already are laws stopping you from carrying a knife around town and restricting their sale, but y’know, carry on with that argument if you want.

    So why would a law banning guns (which there is about the types being used) stop the shooting? so yeah we’ll stick with that point thanks

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    Good grief. U ok hun?

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    So why would a law banning guns

    Who’s asking for guns to be banned?

    deker
    Free Member

    deadlydarcy – Member
    Good grief. U ok hun?

    yes thanks sweetie

    prawny
    Full Member

    So why would a law banning guns (which there is about the types being used) stop the shooting?

    It has though hasn’t it, generally speaking, there are fewer guns over here, and fewer gun deaths, there are other reasons obviously, it’s not black and white, but its definitely a contributing factor.

    I could shoot you if I had a gun, but I don’t, so I can’t.

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    yes thanks sweetie

    You seem angry. You don’t have a gun do you?

    lunge
    Full Member

    Knock out suicides (they’re going to find a way anyway)

    Simply not true. I know a couple of people (one of whom I’m married to) who suffer from depression who, if there was a quick and easily to hand method, are adamant they would have killed themselves. They didn’t as any method inside the house (paracetamol, slitting wrists were the 2 that were mentioned) carried a high risk of being unsuccessful, were messy and rather painful. If they had a gun to hand they wouldn’t be here now.

    deker
    Free Member

    prawny – Member
    So why would a law banning guns (which there is about the types being used) stop the shooting?
    It has though hasn’t it, generally speaking, there are fewer guns over here, and fewer gun deaths, there are other reasons obviously, it’s not black and white, but its definitely a contributing factor.

    I could shoot you if I had a gun, but I don’t, so I can’t.

    I kind of agree BUT you probably could get one if you were ‘desperate’ to (not saying you are lol) and if you did have one legally the vetting process is quiet strict (over here anyway) I’d feel pretty safe on the range next to you as I know that you’ve been through the police (and medical) checks

    I do and several of my friends have them, and we’re no risk BUT constantly under more pressure and legislation.

    What I’m trying to say is that the targeting legal owners doesn’t achieve anything

    deker
    Free Member

    deadlydarcy – Member
    yes thanks sweetie
    You seem angry. You don’t have a gun do you?

    hahahaha yes several but not angry, just get these type of statistics far too often lol

    Cougar
    Full Member

    What I’m trying to say is that the targeting legal owners doesn’t achieve anything

    I’m fairly sure that’s an oversimplification at best.

    It may well be true for the UK, in so far as guns are pretty rare and legal owners tend to buy shotguns for clay pigeons rather than assault rifles for home dee-fense, so targeting legal owners here is pretty pointless.

    But you can’t hold us up as a mirror to the US. There’s plenty of legal gun owners who wouldn’t go to Wal-Mart without a Glock in their pocket. My ex-girlfriend has a gun for protection whilst she’s working; she’s an accountant.

    deker
    Free Member

    Cougar – Moderator

    But you can’t hold us up as a mirror to the US. There’s plenty of legal gun owners who wouldn’t go to Wal-Mart without a Glock in their pocket. My ex-girlfriend has a gun for protection whilst she’s working; she’s an accountant.

    Now that I DO agree on… untrained people carrying firearms in public 😮 , even if something did happen the adrenaline of the situation would have them firing everywhere

    grenosteve
    Free Member

    Last year my cousin (lives in Alabama) got tied up with an electric cord on her bed, by a neighbour who broke in, while he robbed her flat. She got free of the cord while he was in the kitchen, grabbed her gun and shot him dead.

    we’re not that close so I’ve not asked about it, just saw a link to the news story on FB and people asking if she was ok, but get the feeling she would have been in a very horrible situation if she hadn’t got free…

    No idea if that means guns are good or bad, but I’m glad she had one, and I’m glad I live in a country where they are very rare.

    TBH, I didn’t even know any of my “American” family owned guns until that day.

    sbob
    Free Member

    Now that I DO agree on… untrained people carrying firearms in public

    Fortunately most Americans don’t own a gun.
    It’s a tiny minority of multiple gun owning nutcases that keep your death toll so high.

    sbob
    Free Member

    grenosteve – Member

    Last year my cousin (lives in Alabama) got tied up with an electric cord on her bed, by a neighbour who broke in, while he robbed her flat.

    Lucky the neighbour didn’t have a gun, or find her gun. 💡

    dissonance
    Full Member

    I was showing that people will kill and its not the tool used that needs banning

    There is a reason the armed forces carry rifles and not swords nowadays.
    The right tool for the job makes things a lot easier and potentially a lot more dangerous.

    Licensing and restricting firearms would reduce the flow to the criminals.
    A classic example is Chicago.
    The gun nuts go on about the number of shootings there and the fact it has strict gun laws as being a case against gun laws.
    However they skip over the minor detail that less than an hour down the road they have some of the slackest gun laws in the country. So there is a constant supply of “legal” guns.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Now that I DO agree on… untrained people carrying firearms in public , even if something did happen the adrenaline of the situation would have them firing everywhere

    Quite. And that’s a Problem. I expect most people with guns in the US believe that they’re a good shot (see also, “above average driver”) and many will think they’re the ghost of John Rambo. But even if reasonably competent, a lot of people would go to pieces in an actual firefight.

    You’ll never rid America of guns for the simple reason that all other things aside they just really really like them. But I reckon having a mandatory training course to get them to a decent standard and teach them about things like safe storage would be a big help. The notion that in some states you can just pick one up along with a gallon of milk is just looney tunes.

    get the feeling she would have been in a very horrible situation if she hadn’t got free…

    She’d have been burgled and wouldn’t have someone’s death on her conscience for the rest of her life. Beyond that it’s guesswork and American “thank god I had a gun” logic.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Fortunately most Americans don’t own a gun.
    It’s a tiny minority of multiple gun owning nutcases that keep your death toll so high.

    There’s truth here. Guns:people in the US is about 1:1, but gun ownership is about a quarter of the population.

    This is interesting though:

    https://qz.com/1095899/gun-ownership-in-america-in-three-charts/

    “The average American gun owner owns three guns, according to a 2015 survey conducted by Harvard and Northwestern University. More than a half of them own just one or two, whereas 14% of them–7.7 million or 3% of the US population–own anywhere between eight to 140 guns. This 3% of the population owns half of the civilian guns in the US.

    globalti
    Free Member

    My brother in Michigan sometimes sends me long emails agonising about several aspects of life in the USA, mostly his wife’s irrational behaviour and insecurity and Americans’ love of guns. He reckons the Wild West is still fresh in the psyches of Americans, most of whom are only a few generations descended from Europeans who fled persecution or poverty to establish a new life, which they did by killing indigenous Americans and taking their land by force.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Cougar – Moderator

    But I reckon having a mandatory training course to get them to a decent standard and teach them about things like safe storage would be a big help.

    Always seems to me like this is the button to push- the “responsible gun owner” line, “So you want a gun to defend your family? Good for you! But it takes more than just a gun to defend your family, you need to know how to use it safely, you need to know how to keep your family safe from it”. You could have a video delivered by Captain America to really drive the point home.

    But the trouble is, the definition of “responsible gun owner” seems to be “all gun owners who haven’t yet gone on a killing spree”. You even hear the line trotted out after accidental shootings- “X has been a responsible gun owner for 10 years, today there was a tragic accident where her son shot her baby” So even that might be a hard thing to reset.

    Me, I don’t accept “it can’t be fixed”- it’ll take a long time but then it took a long time to get all these guns into circulation in the first place. It’s not impossible, it’s just very hard. As soon as you stop the flow of legitimately bought firearms and ammunition into the market things start to choke. And “only criminals will have guns” is exactly the point, you no longer have to wait for a person with a gun to murder someone before you can arrest them, they’re a criminal just for having the gun so you can arrest them on the way

    Also, I absolutely hate when people say “discounting suicides”, as if they just don’t matter. And similiarly, the number of times you see “black on black” as a synonym for “gang related” and therefore also ignorable is flat out disgusting.

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    Also, I absolutely hate when people say “discounting suicides”, as if they just don’t matter. And similiarly, the number of times you see “black on black” as a synonym for “gang related” and therefore also ignorable is flat out disgusting.

    This.

    taxi25
    Free Member

    “The average American gun owner owns three guns, according to a 2015 survey conducted by Harvard and Northwestern University. More than a half of them own just one or two, whereas 14% of them–7.7 million or 3% of the US population–own anywhere between eight to 140 guns. This 3% of the population owns half of the civilian guns in the US.”

    I don’t really have much of an opinion about gun ownership in America. They might share a common language with us but are a different country 4,000 miles away with a totally different culture and mind set on very many things. Not sure why we have this preoccupation with things American.
    But owning multiple guns is no different to them than a STW’er owning many different bikes. Different guns for different things, or collectors like we might collect stamps or something, just a hobby.

    Jakester
    Free Member

    deker – Member

    My other hobbies include firearms which people keep trying to clamp down on, do you know how many people were killed by legally owned semi-automatic rifles before Michael Ryan went on the rampage – NONE, do you know how many were killed with LEGAL pistols before Thomas Hamilton? Again NONE

    The easiest way to make the place safer isn’t to target legally owned firearms but to actually enforce a proper sentence on the criminals using them

    Genuine question, what sort of “firearms” do you own and why?

    Aside from sporting pistols for target shooting and a bolt-action rifle or a breech loading shotgun for vermin and game shooting, I can’t see any justifiable reason for owing a gun.

    EDIT: and to be honest I find the latter two pretty difficult to objectively justify.

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