Upside Down Bikes, Know what it means?

If you put two upside down bikes across a thread…
I wonder if tjagainandagainaandagainaandagainandagainandagainandagainandagainand… just rides over them

 Lots of other info about what to do in a crash but not this

I can’t see what point you’re trying to make here TJ, apart from “because I’m not aware of something, it therefore doesn’t exist for anyone else” this is whole new level of obtuseness that I didn’t think even you were capable of.

I’m going to summerise, as I I’m getting a bit lost

There’s an article design to raise awareness about something that may be of benefit to some people, your complaint is that you weren’t aware of the thing the article is trying to raise awareness about…

Is that a fair analysis of your argument?

FWIW (and that’s not a lot), I was told about the crossed skis (or boards) thing by three different instructors in three different countries, Norway, Italy and France.

Was this a 1:1 type instructor or big group ski school? and what age were you?

The whole lesson/instructor thing works differently in MTB, I guess nobody took bike lessons as a complete absolute beginner to off roading?

Whereas taking a course later on, whether thats for riding technique or big mountain safety is possibly more common than on snow, where most people I know just get on with it themselves once they got to the basic ability to turn and stop.

@nickc

Is that a fair analysis of your argument?

Not as far as I’ve understood what he’s said. The article portrays the “upside down bike” as some kind of internationally recognised system when it appears that plenty of people with a lot of experience have never come across.

It’s not that it’s a bad idea, it’s the idea that everyone is at it.

In 30 years of riding, reading bike mags (that famously recycle articles) and doing MIAS and BC instructor courses I have no recollection of it as the accepted method.

Is that a fair analysis of your argument?

No

Because its not a recognised signal to the vast majority it will not do what its adherents propose. Look at us on here – many of us have never heard of this as a recognised signal. so if you put a bike upside down and expect it to bring you help it will not

thus its actually worse than useless as its adherents think it will acheive something it cannot

sure it will help keep muppets off the trail when its blocked.

if you put a bike upside down and expect it to bring you help it will not

It’s not to go get help, it’s to stop folk barrelling into a seriously injured rider, unseen at the point of no return on a jump, and the emergency services tending to him.

so if you put a bike upside down and expect it to bring you help it will not

That’s not what it (or crossed skis) means. It just means there’s a hazard ahead.

Is that the basis of the amount of energy you are putting into this strange argument you are making TJ? That you think this is some kind of signal for help?

It absolutely is not a signal for help. It’s to indicate a hazard.. like a red triangle you put on the road when you break down.

Does that clear things up for you TJ?

That use is totally obvious. However its not what the posters have been saying nor what the article did?

I have seen bikes put like this when riders take a break or are doing repairs

Read northwinds post for why this is ill conceived

This bit?

Upside down bikes like in the photo are a good way to block a trail/warn people, yes. And also suggests possible mechanicals- if I see someone with an upside down bike at trailside I’ll ask if they need help. And it’s common sense that if someone’s made an effort to block a trail you should react and think about why… If we’re going to have a rule, it’s a good one.

Having a middle-aged desk pilot flip an ebike is, scientifically and empirically speaking, going to lead to hernia’s and slipped discs.

Then you’ve doubled* the amount of casualties. Depending on the number in the pack of ebikers, this could lead to a cascade of lifting injuries that overwhelm local A&E services.

Don’t forget to bend your knees.

* Depends on number of original casualties.

Not as far as I’ve understood what he’s said. The article portrays the “upside down bike” as some kind of internationally recognised system when it appears that plenty of people with a lot of experience have never come across.

Apologies if this is the way it comes across. Never expected this to get the reach it has. The intent is to raise awareness (as I said in a previous comment, I’ve not seen it either, though it does appear a lot more common in Europe and not the UK). Hopefully we’ve helped to make it more of ‘a thing’ so that people will recognise it as something to slow down for.

To clarify, the idea is that this isn’t a thing as such, but the riders involved would like it to be something that’s more widely recognised in the interest of keeping everyone safe on the trails. However you choose to do it, we all have a responsibility to make sure we’re doing the best we can when the worst should happen.

The hope is, that when seeing this and used in the safest way possible that it could prevent further accidents. As most have said, they would see it and slow down. The issue in this circumstance is the rider couldn’t be moved and his friends wanted to stay with him and keep him safe.

Having a middle-aged desk pilot flip an ebike is, scientifically and empirically speaking, going to lead to hernia’s and slipped discs.

Press the “walk” button and let it wheelie itself over.

@ayjaydoubleyou

Was this a 1:1 type instructor or big group ski school? and what age were you?

A mix, 1 big ski school group, 1 small (group of 4) ski school group, and 1 private instructor group of 2.

All in the last 5 or 6 years,  all adult groups.

Tautalogy?

Widely used / many people not aware?

its one or the other surely?

It absolutely isn’t one or the other. There are plenty of things widely used in specific areas (not necessarily bikes) which the public at large are not necessarily aware of.
Also, look up the meaning of tautology – it doesn’t mean what you think it does.

I’ve not seen it either, though it does appear a lot more common in Europe and not the UK

Well we’ve left Europe so we can break away from what those dirty foreigners do. We are free to devise our own system of warning now! Maybe Liz Truss could come up with something as part of a trade deal? Or we could use a flag?

Never expected this to get the reach it has

Haha! Maybe you’ll think more carefully about your “audience” when coming up with news articles in future!! 🤣🤣🤣

@DezB – in hindsight, the tile should have been, upside down bikes, should it be a thing? Ha. Anyway, have enjoyed reading the comments and discussions (here and on social media). Will look out for this in future, though hopefully I won’t see it often!

I was briefly on/under an upside down bike only last night. Rapid bracken growth concealing a particularly big and badly angled rock-related OTB. True story.

Will look out for this in future, though hopefully I won’t see it often!

So naive, how sweet. (-:

To my mind, is this an established signal? No. Does that really matter? No.

Those bikes have very clearly been placed deliberately. Anyone coming across that would surely at least question why? I know common sense ain’t always all that common but still. Who changes a puncture like that? And where are the riders changing it?

Conversely, your mate’s just had a big off past a blind bend / summit, you want to put something out as a warning that’s large and visible. What else would you use? Walking down the trail is fine in a big group but if there’s just too of you, your mate might need the company / monitoring.

It’s a good idea.

Those bikes have very clearly been placed deliberately. Anyone coming across that would surely at least question why?

Yep – ramblers warning sign/victory symbol or kids messing about.

What I do know is that they better get them out of the way quick if it is going to mess with my Strava time.

Don’t you just put up your orange warning triangle ?

And why are you not carrying a safety flag ?

And why are you not carrying a safety flag ?

It’s in the wash after being covered in Sudocrem.

To my mind @cougar is absolutely right – its not “a thing” but it is a sensible use of the tools available to make the casualty and those treating them safer. BUT if is the article seems to suggest its not 100% effective at stopping people – it would be better to recruit one of these bystanders to flag-down/shout/warn people.

So @mark I’m with @tjagain on this – the problem is not with the concept of using a bike to block / provide some warning to those ahead, its the idea that one or two people can invent their own code and expect others to know what it means as you put it “It absolutely is not a signal for help. It’s to indicate a hazard.. like a red triangle you put on the road when you break down.” Because a red triangle has no other purpose, and is specifically mentioned in the highway code (FWIW perhaps also worth noting where used in the UK often put in a largely useless position, and rarely adopted here).

Here’s the article headline, as per this threat title:
Upside Down Bikes on the Trail, Do You Know What It Means?
and some quotes from the article:
It’s a good idea for all of us to know what something means if we come across it.
Crossed skis = Red Triangle = Upturned bike = CAUTION, HAZARD.
One bike, or two – makes no difference. The signal and message is the same. Put the brakes on and prepare to either get out of the way or offer help.

The article then goes on to criticise people for passing it – even by your own self-created interpretation of what it indicates this is not actually wrong.

Despite the article including 5 separate links to reputable sources of information on trail etiquette etc none of them seem to suggest blocking a trail with an upturned bike to warn of a hazard ahead. There probably is a legitimate debate to be had on whether we need some well-promoted warning like crossed skis, and certainly, most of those links were scant on any discussion about dealing with an accident.

I’m not sure a journalist or someone who has just had a scary experience on a trail is best placed to formulate a set of guidelines that should make sense in any situation; but if ST-Towers want to use their presence to help lobby the IMBA, DMBS etc that there should be some agreed means to make riders aware of a crash ahead then I think most people would support that. The article seems to suggest there is already an accepted standard and people are just not aware – and I think that is wrong.

@ajaydoubleyou

Was this a 1:1 type instructor or big group ski school? and what age were you?

The whole lesson/instructor thing works differently in MTB, I guess nobody took bike lessons as a complete absolute beginner to off roading?

Whereas taking a course later on, whether thats for riding technique or big mountain safety is possibly more common than on snow, where most people I know just get on with it themselves once they got to the basic ability to turn and stop.

There are clearly differences between skiing and cycling but:
1. The both have signs at the start of trails, on uplifts etc. Skiing managed to put X skies and other etiquette signs up in these places, cycling has all sorts of information – like where the nearest hospital is, but we don’t have any information on marking crashes ahead.
2. I’ve ridden with (and crashed with!) people who are qualified trail leaders, and I’ve never heard this suggested.
3. Its not something youth coaching sessions, or the local your XC race series have used. It may be that these are well enough staffed/marshalled that its not a problem.
4. Kids have been on day long (and multiday) sessions with various outdoor centres / guides and none of them have mentioned this – despite the possibility that you might have another half a dozen riders from the same group coming in a few minutes…

If this was to become a thing, it could relatively easily be communicated/shared. Until then you have to rely on the first help to the rider using their common sense to work out the best way to warn others and the oncoming riders using their common sense to work out that the improvised message might be a danger.

Those bikes have very clearly been placed deliberately. Anyone coming across that would surely at least question why? I know common sense ain’t always all that common but still. Who changes a puncture like that? And where are the riders changing it?

Most definitely this, hopefully most people are not too absorbed in Strava to wonder why someone has left their pride and joy unattended on the trail.

Although I have met a tosser at Glentress who was swearing about people laying face down on the trail and ruining his times. (was a friend of mine had an OTB behind me, the rear of our group were attending them). So I can quite understand that these people can’t comprehend warnings!