[Closed] Uncle in care home & staff 'issue' dilemma!

I'm sure it is bound to break some of the homes rules.
Think of it this way, say 10 people in the home 2k a year is 20k tax free for little effort.
I'd report it.

tricky, but you're responsible for conducting your uncle's financial affairs in a proper manner, so it's your appointed duty to investigate and make sure it's a bona fide request.

Trickiest bit might be the conversation with your uncle...

Edit: no judgement made on whether the request could in any way be bona fide, or even allowable by home rules even if it was.

Edit again: didn't really read your question. You probably know all that ^. Speak to worker first, I would.

Sackable offense. Clearly taking advantage of someone in their care.

I get offered money and gifts all the time, usually just some chocs, sometimes large sums of cash. Professional integrity says I don't accept cash and only gifts of chocs etc with low value.

Speak to the worker first I would say.

She may be totally unaware of whats happening, and appalled at the thought that he is planning to send her son money and ask you not to do it ?

You never know, it certainly sounds A bit suss at first glance, but there may be an innocent explanation. And it's her job on the line if you speak to anyone else first.

Bang out of order especially if your uncle has not even met the boy. I do hope you didn't write the cheque?

It will be against the homes rules, its quite possibly criminal, I would sack the worker on the spot if I were the manager. Writing down the sons address is where it steps over the line. There can be no innocent explanation - the worker must know this is unacceptable

teh worker should know its not on. I would not speak to the worker at all. Go direct to the manager and you must insist on knowing he outcome. if you don't get satisfaction go to the care commision ( or whatever the regulators are called in England)

Report it, immediately, to the home and further up, this is abuse..no excuses..the end.

I think the law is a little different in England (I work in Scotland) so the terminology may be different but how do you have financial power of attorney if your uncle is 'ok mentally?' This is only granted when the person has lost capacity to make the decisions him/herself. If you have power of attorney you control your uncle's finances - so just don't write the cheque to the care worker's son!

As others have said speaking to the relevant people will help clear things up and find out what's been going on. I'd start with the manager but get some advice from the Care Quality Commission perhaps? Does your Uncle have a Social Worker? If not the relevant team will have a duty worker/system that could help. Just don't ring on Wednesday 30th 😉

Gently investigate. It's against the rules, but then again, if I was an old man, with spare cash, and I was offered an opportunity to make someone's life better, I would, for better or for worse.
Gently...

shortbread_fanylion

You can grant power of attorney at any time - My parents had it for me when I was abroad and I have it for them as a precaution should they become incapacitated. Its much easier to do it before people lose capacity then after.

there can be no mix up - the care worker wrote down the sons address. This is abuse and must be addressed as such.

http://www.elderabuse.org.uk/
if you need more help and guidance

the reason he care worker will have suggested her son is to try and get around the rules of the home that forbid staff taking any gifts

Shortbread, I have lasting power of attorney because this was his wish in case he became unable to conduct his own financial affairs, all set up by his solicitor, his bank (of which he is an ex manager) & most importantly, The Office of the Public Guardian, who must approve any contract.
TJ, I wrote the cheque out, however It's been sat on the kitchen table for a week!
I think most people have confirmed my thoughts & backed up my intentions.

IF the worker has given the son's address to your uncle then yes, there are serious grounds for investigation and dismissal.

IF some other sequence of events has occurred (could be anything, I'm not psychic so don't know) then the outcome may be very different.

Just as an example that has occurred in my area of practice recently seemed to have no innocent explanation but, in fact, had.

Leading on from this are you sure that your uncle has not got the address details from someone else - you need to ascertain the facts from him before doing anything else.

my SO has occasionally been given gifts by residents, by gifts we are talking a box of chocolates, a fiver for doing some errands, that sort of thing. Technically against the rules but small tokens gifts have been ignored.

What you are describing is way beyond the line of acceptable.

As TJ says, they should be instantly sacked,its abuse off power, report it immediately in writing to the home manager, and the care quality commision aand also the Pova co- ordinator(protection of vulnerable adults) at the local authority,demand they take action, orthey may not and if she is doing it to one vulnerable patient she may be milking more residents, and they may willingly be paying over large sums of cash .

Oh and when all the money is gone who is going to pay the care home top up fees.

IF the worker has given the son's address to your uncle then yes, there are serious grounds for investigation and dismissal.

+1

I think you have to take this further - how you do it is up to you but the correct way forward I think is to go to the home's management and if they cannot give an acceptable explanation then social services involved and find another home.

All these people acting as Judge and Jury without knowing anything at all about what has actually happened 🙄

What a surprise on an Internet forum.

Maybe your uncle told the Carer that he might be able to help her son out with a job through a friend or something like that ?
Maybe her sons house is for sale and he said he wanted the address to pass on to a prospective buyer ?

There are a million ways he could have got the address off her without her knowing why.

Maybe she's a scam artist. But maybe not. How the **** would any of us know ???

Admit it, it's you nealglover - isn't it?

What they said+lots

Worse than sackable offence, arrestable and very serious offence. If you decide to talk to them again before shopping them, tape it. Hope the rest of your uncle's carers are OK, and it's a decent place generally.

nealglover, from real life experience, always report stuff, failure to report results in negligence ,poor working standards and even poorer staff motivation.

We are dealing with vulnerable adults here, some who have no relatives, or relatives who dont care.

Sorry,haven't read all the above posts.

DO NOT DO IT.

I work in care homes.
The separation between the personal and professional should be absolute.

I don't accept any gifts - it's not necessary any compromises the entire relationship between the carer, the client, the home and the relatives.

Again, DO NOT DO IT. I cannot emphasise this enough.

If the manager of the care home doesn't appear to be bothered, report them as well.

It is abuse and should be dealt with as such.

Please, please report this.
It gives those of us who do the job for the right reasons a bad name.

Please, please report this.
It gives those of us who do the job for the right reasons a bad name.

Well put

Neal, don't think you read the OP properly.
The two ideas you came up with are as unlikely as me winning the DH ay Champerey. (extremely unlikely)

project - Member
nealglover, from real life experience, always report stuff, failure to report results in negligence ,poor working standards and even poorer staff motivation.
We are dealing with vulnerable adults here, some who have no relatives, or relatives who dont care.

I'm not saying otherwise. Just think talking to the Carer first might be a better idea.
Then report it ?

All the "know everythings" on here would have her sacked and locked up
Without actually knowing anything other than that the old boy has got her sons address somehow.

iDave - Member
Admit it, it's you nealglover - isn't it?

😀

(I could do with £2k ! But ...... No)

esselgruntfuttock - Member
Neal, don't think you read the OP properly.
The two ideas you came up with are as unlikely as me winning the DH ay Champerey. (extremely unlikely)

Which bit did I miss ?

I didn't see anything that said he was incapable speaking to people and asking questions.

And he did say he was a very charitable fella.
Maybe he's a bit sly too ?

All I am saying, is that there is a possibility that there is a normal explanation, and the Carer is in fact not aware of what the old boy was planning to do.
It's a possibility, that's all I'm saying.

Neal, do get a real-life, talking to the carer will give her time to concoct a story, she has no place in a care home.

2000 quid is a lot of cash to give away for anyone.

Neal - speaking to the care worker is not right thing to do at all. Nothing can possibly be settled from that at all. All it would do is give the carer the opportunity to cover tracks

Writing down the sons address cannot have an innocent explanation. There is a very strong set of rules on this for a good reason.

The care worker might just have been stupid but I doubt it. everyone knows this sort of contact is not permissible. The possible explanations you give are not excusable at all in any way.

There are a few of us on here with experience of the sector and we all realise how serious this is.

I agree to a certain extent Neal, there could be an innocent explanation, but I think if it is, it has to be 'nipped in the bud' as it were or it could escalate. (thats if it is innocent which I'm doubting more & more)
He's an ex bank manager, (he's bound to be a bit sly!), but because he's a generous christian, maybe also a bit gullible at his age (86)
She probably doesn't realise that I write his cheques, so I'm gonna see what explanation she comes up with before she ends up in the dole queue!

You say your uncle is "OK mentally" and knows it is "against the rules" that doesn't stack up quite so well with being taken advantage of. Personally if I was going to scam money out of old folks I wouldn't pick the ones with powers of attorney in place!

I think you need to talk to the oldboy first of all and ascertain the facts. Then if she had given him the address to solicit funds from him then I don't see any point in giving her the opportunity to explain to you why, or weedle her way out of it - go to the top, they will conduct whatever investigation is required to give her a fair chance at defence. The harder part will be if your uncle says he's not being conned, and really wants to help him out and he got the address without her knowledge of how/why.

You could argue that the RNLI etc are also taking advantage of an old man's vulnerability/beneavolance - I'll bet the advertise in materials targetted at the older person to try and maximise legacy income. On the other hand not giving away his cash in line with his wishes might well be seen to be keeping it to line your own pocket in the future...

Provocative Poly 🙂

It doesn't even matter if the money has not been solicited - if the carers son accepted it it would be wrong

Don't confront her, report it and let them find out the truth, if she's innocent then she'll be cleared and no harm done
Allthough I can't think of any situation that could explain away that sort behaviour by a care worker towards a resident, there's very strict rules and regulations to prevent it, just report it,..

[i]On the other hand not giving away his cash in line with his wishes might well be seen to be keeping it to line your own pocket in the future...[/i]
Thanks you crank, funny how you thought of that when I didn't need to (i already know how I stand in Uncles will, he's told me as I'm also executor to his estate)
So how would a careworker know a resident had someone that was a nominated person with lasting power of attorney? (without being proper nosey)
Go on, speculate a bit more while not knowing anything apart from what youv'e read.

esselgruntfuttock - Member
I agree to a certain extent Neal, there could be an innocent explanation, but I think if it is, it has to be 'nipped in the bud' as it were or it could escalate. (thats if it is innocent which I'm doubting more & more)
He's an ex bank manager, (he's bound to be a bit sly!), but because he's a generous christian, maybe also a bit gullible at his age (86)
She probably doesn't realise that I write his cheques, [b]so I'm gonna see what explanation she comes up with before she ends up in the dole queue![/b]

Glad to hear that.

Maybe also talk to your uncle before that ? He may clue you in to what he's been up to

Or he may tell You that she gave him some big sob story and asked for money ??

Either way, if he's switched on enough to know it's "against the rules", he will more than likely be able to clear up any confusion and answer your questions.

You can grant power of attorney at any time - My parents had it for me when I was abroad and I have it for them as a precaution should they become incapacitated. Its much easier to do it before people lose capacity then after.

True, I have only been aware of situations whereby it has been granted once the person has lost capacity as it's automatically enacted, but they'd agreed that this would happen if/when they lost capacity. Didn't realise you could effectively sign it straight over to someone to look after your financial affairs even when you still had capacity. Getting a bit mixed up with welfare power of attorney which is only enacted once capacity is lost, assuming it's been signed off when the grantor has capacity.

esselgrunt - I don't know how much the careworker knows about her "clients", but I'd be surprised if she didn't have a pretty good idea who was looking after their own affairs, who was able to write cheques (why would she write down an address if he is able to write himself) etc. I don't know what sort of access individual staff have to records, or what her role involves but I assume someone at the home is familiar with the situation. But quite simply being "proper nosey" is not that difficult in a care home - lots of people sitting round who would be delighted if you struck up a conversation with them. Certainly if you were going to risk getting fired by soliciting money from someone it would make sense to understand the risks.

I wasn't actually suggesting that you were in it to make more for yourself. I was pointing out how it could appear - if e.g. there are other nephews and nieces who hear that you've been refusing to give his money away where he wishes. But I obviously hit a raw nerve!

TJ - I did wonder whether he would accept it? Whilst I'm not "on hard times" I know that if a cheque appeared out the blue from some guy I never met, probably with little of no explanation (after all "Uncle Esselgrunt" isn't going to be writing any letters to go in with it) then I'd not be cashing it (in fact I'd be suspicious it was some sort of new elaborate phishing scam and it would turn out Uncle Esselgrunt was a Nigerian Prince!).

Poly - a careworker would be unlikely to know who has a power of attorney although it would usually be possible to get the info if they wanted to.

esselgruntfuttock - Member

So how would a careworker know a resident had someone that was a nominated person with lasting power of attorney? (without being proper nosey)

Fairly routine for them to know this in my experience. For instance, if there are financial issues in the future (eg, fees need paid) they know who deals with the person's finances and who to approach. Same if someone has welfare guardianship for a person and decisions need to be made about their care - it's good practice for the home to know who to contact, epseically as they may need to do so at short notice.

When my dad was in a care home, the staff or one of them didnt bother to make up some sob story, they just stole his money 80 quid, along with his cash cards and wallet,he was bed ridden at the time,and couldnt get out of bed, and the lazy management denied any responsibility,until a letter was sent to head office, from whence a replacement cheque was sent for the amount, but that was only the start of the ongoing nightmare.

So if a cheque came in the post from some one you (genuinely)didn't know, made out to you, you wouldn't cash it? (NatWest cheque, bona fide sort code, Leeds branch etc.)
What if your mum had mentioned it might be coming, would you cash it then?
What if they kept coming?

[i]Fairly routine for them to know this in my experience. For instance, if there are financial issues in the future (eg, fees need paid) they know who deals with the person's finances and who to approach. Same if someone has welfare guardianship for a person and decisions need to be made about their care - it's good practice for the home to know who to contact, epseically as they may need to do so at short notice.[/i]
Management know, I wouldn't expect care workers to be privy to that info.

Is it in written in his care plan? The staff member might have read it in there - assuming they've read the care plan. If not then they've got it from somewhere. Maybe your uncle told her? Or is it common knowledge in the home? If you requested this was kept confidential you should seek an explanation from the management.

It would normally be in the care plan to which all workers have access. I would expect only the senior staff to actually look and know what one is however, I wouldn't expect a care assistant to even know where to look or what one was but its usually there to see for all.

Ah well, we'll see what transpires. Thanks for the replies, speshly the sensible ones (TJ etc)

This thread is making me very angry.

I'm a care worker.
The ethics of the situation are very, very clear:

You do not ask, inquire or attempt to make enquiries about your clients financial situation.
If they volunteer any information it should be treated as confidential.

Financial details should not be included in a care plan - why should they be?

It has nothing to do with the provision of care.

I write care plans, compile care assessments and have never, ever felt the need to include details of a clients financial situation.

[b]YOU DO NOT ACCEPT ANY GIFTS FROM CLIENTS. IF YOU ARE OFFERED GIFTS YOU REPORT THIS TO THE CARE HOME MANAGER AND THE RELATIVES OF THE CLIENT.[/b]

The dignity and care of the client is paramount - nothing, nothing comes before this.

In the current climate, there are a lot of scare stories regarding care and care homes.
Most of it is utter bollocks.
We do the job because we care and we enjoy it.

Bad carers don't last - it's just not worth doing if you don't get any
kind of satisfaction from it.
There are lots of easier ways to earn minimum wage.

I'd be delighted if someone followed me round with a secret camera, it might just help people to understand the necessity of confronting the reality of care provision and my job might just be valued a bit more.

Essel, if the carer in question is any good, they will thank you for reporting this matter.

as everyone says you must take it further to prevent others being ripped off. Go to the registered manager and if no result (unimaginable but you never know) then the owner and Care Quality Commission (CQC website is fairly good) and the local authority, even if you uncle is a self funder / private payer. LAs can be more strict than the CQC IME and will come down on the home like a ton of bricks.

TandemJeremy - Member

It would normally be in the care plan to which all workers have access. I would expect only the senior staff to actually look and know what one is however, I wouldn't expect a care assistant to even know where to look or what one was but its usually there to see for all.

TJ, sorry mate, but this is just not true.

Every single care worker I deal with is required to read and understand the care plan for their client.
They then have to sign a form to confirm that they have understood and agree to provide the care that is required.

There is no ambiguity about this, it's an absolute.

If anyone has a relative in care where this does not take place, move them or demand another company takes over.

Rusty its quite the norm for basic financial stuff including who controls the finances to be on the care plans - certainly in nursing homes where I work - we need to know so we know who to deal with if the person wants / needs some money spending on new clothes or sweets or haircuts or whatever.

Rusty = crossed posts - I have worked at senior level in nursing homes for many years and its quite the norm I assure you. I would never think oddly of it.

Are you local authority or residential homes? ( I know we are all "care homes" now)

teh care pans I refer to can me a couple of hundred pages - and I would never exect a care assistant to sign anything nor have I ever heard of it. I have working in dozens of care homes

Bad carers don't last - it's just not worth doing if you don't get any
kind of satisfaction from it.

But they are tolerated by poor managemnet who find them cheap to employ.

I'd be delighted if someone followed me round with a secret camera, it might just help people to understand the necessity of confronting the reality of care provision and my job might just be valued a bit more.

Nearly all carers do an excellent hard job, but a few let the side down, and as above its usualy by being tolerated by poor management, and once a home gets a bad name , good staff either resign, or dont apply for jobs, residents move to other homes, and the home is closed and sold as flats or demolition for redevelopment.

There are also relatives who put their family in a home, and then forget about them, its those forgoten residents that need protecting, and the only way to protect them and posibbly ourselves when we are old and dependant, is to question, report and always demand written responces.

I work for a large bank, this is fraud and theft you must call the police right now, then contact the bank as soon as possible, so they can get back any money that has been stolen. Is called theft through deception. This is a very serious case pleas CALL THE POLICE RIGHT NOW!!

we all nearly agree for once.

You will want to contact the customer fraud team , its not something a branch can take care of!!! Pleas call the police tonight!

Sounds like financial abuse to me ......alarm bells ringing and my spidy senses are going nuts!

You can grant power of attorney at any time

No one should ignore this. My mother asked me to be her power of attorney when she became single in her fifties and watched all her friends die of cancer.

Respect to her I say.

i hope youre on the phone to the police right now, the fraud team at the bank will have dealt with the situation before and have close contacts with the police, some one could find then selves being arrested at work...

[i]I work for a large bank, this is fraud and theft you must call the police right now, then contact the bank as soon as possible, so they can get back any money that has been stolen. Is called theft through deception. This is a very serious case pleas CALL THE POLICE RIGHT NOW!![/i]
Calm down, I'm not a total dipstick (I am a prison ossifer you know)
I STILL HAVE THE CHEQUE! i wrote it out in my uncles presence but didn't post it.
No crime has been committed, yet.

I assume if you have a look at his statements there will be past instances of this, and in fact yes a crime has been committed, some one has attempted to remove funds from another's account, even if they were not successfully its still a crime. Bank will change is bank AC number, cards etc, suggest he gets rid of his check book, he has no need for it as he/ you can just use a debit card! I have seen this at work, these people get jobs in care homes for this reason!

"jumpupanddown" certainly living up to his username there !

jumpupanddown - hold fire.

Esselgruntfuttock writes the cheques, no other money has gone, no one has attepted to remove funds.

Its been know for cares to take old folks to bank to take their money out with them!

Personally i would still gather further information from your uncle to ensure you have the facts before acting. I am not saying this person is innocent or that you should not act, just confirm the facts before acting.
We process a significant number of safeguardings every day and initially damning evidence does not always add up when heavily scrutinised.

Esselgruntfuttock writes the cheques, no other money has gone, no one has attepted to remove funds.

some one has pressured or persuade him to remove funds from his bank, that is a crime on its own. The crime was committed when the career asked for the money!

In my old job with the information provided i would have already put a freeze on the AC and called the police!

[i]I assume if you have a look at his statements there will be past instances of this, and in fact yes a crime has been committed, some one has attempted to remove funds from another account, even if they were not successfully its still a crime.[/i]

**** me jumpupanddown, your'e either on speed or you've been through his statements & know something I don't!

He's not senile, he just can't write his own cheques out FFS.

I work for a large bank

jumpupanddown - Member
some one has pressured or persuade him to remove funds from his bank, that is a crime on its own. The crime was committed when the career asked for the money!

And you know the Carer "asked for the money" how exactly ??

Have you even read the thread, or are you just making stuff up ?

In the current climate you lost your credibility right there

Yea and i now work in collections, times are ****ing good!!!!

And you know the Carer "asked for the money" how exactly ??

well wtf would he be writing a check for 2 grand if some one had not asked him to!!

Nuke the care worker from space, its the only way to be sure.

Yea and i now work in collections, times are **** good!!!!

Bellend.

Yea and i now work in collections, times are **** good!!!!
Bellend.

you can call me what you want but with my bonus structure i dont care.....

People have ruined them selves buy buying a load of shit they didnt need, and now they cant pay..i have very little sympathy! But back to the thread, and care worker that asks for 2 grand is scum!

jumpupand down - I suggest you read what essel posted.

well wtf would he be writing a check for 2 grand if some one had not asked him to!!

Essel wrote he check and did not send it. Essel writes all the cheques as he has power of attorney

Essel wrote he check and did not send it. Essel writes all the cheques as he has power of attorney

You should still inform the bank, as check books can be ordered over the phone! Signature forged etc!

I know I started this thread to more or less confirm what I already knew, thanks TJ, rusty & all you others but jumpyup&downy hasn't been paying attention & seems to have lost the plot!
It's now more entertaining than the telly though. 😆

EDIT, It's not even a troll!

TJ, I admire you for your patience!

well wtf would he be writing a check for 2 grand if some one had not asked him to!!

Read the thread properly, then come back when you know wtf your talking about.

No wonder the banks are ****ed with brain donors like you working in them 🙄

LOL @ neal!

god ive seen this happen so many times, the care worker will get youre father to order a check book on the phone and then write her own checks!!! bell ends come crying to us when some one wipes out ur account but you can never work out why, its coz you know shit all bout how banking system work!!!

god ive seen this happen so many times, the care worker will get youre [b][u]father[/u][/b] to order a check book on the phone and then write her own checks!!! bell ends come crying to us when some one wipes out ur account but you can never work out why, its coz you know shit all bout how banking system work!!!

[img] [/img]

You couldn't make it up 🙄

As an aside;

I started off quite calmly reading page 2.

I am now jumping up and down.

Has the SAS been called yet?