UK Steel production looking shaky

Port talbot steelworks to close and be remodelled as an electric arc furnace, so recycled products only. This puts the UK in a very exposed position as I believe it would mean importing products like rail and structural steel. Anybody else care about this?

As someone brought up in Motherwell I have some sympathy but this has been the way of things for decades so it shouldn’t come as a surprise.  As for whether people should care about steel manufacture, we’ve probably been importing all the raw materials for decades too so it doesn’t make that much difference.

You can’t make an omlette without breaking eggs. The job losses and loss of steel making capacity is a necessary evil in pursuit of the goal of net zero supported by all the major parties.  Whether the electric furnace will be viable long term with  high UK electricity prices is another question.  And of course the savings in UK CO2 output are partly just transferred to wherever we import our steel from.

Going to devastate Port Talbot, 3000 job losses…

Net zero jobs.

finephilly
Free Member

Port talbot steelworks to close and be remodelled as an electric arc furnace, so recycled products only. This puts the UK in a very exposed position as I believe it would mean importing products like rail and structural steel. Anybody else care about this?

We’ve already outsourced our skilled labour in every other sector, why not steelmaking?

Not many, apparently. I grew up within earshot of the blast furnaces of Teesside (as did everyone from Middlesbrough eastwards) and it’s weird to see how quickly the Redcar plant is disappearing. I heard about Port Talbot a couple of weeks ago from my BIL who is a fairly big cheese in recycling steel in USA, he was over visiting Scunny to sort a deal.

Where does the raw ore and coal come from for Port Talbot currently?

Prob Asia and S America

Going to devastate Port Talbot, 3000 job losses…

And how would you notice? It’s been a dump my whole life, no more so now than when it had many thousands more working there in the 80s.

There was some bickering discussion on R4 about this morning between various workers, experts and politicians. About how long into the future you need to look before arc furnaces can do all steel production. As a listener I came away none the wiser as to what the truth was.

From a global perspective there has to be an argument that the best place to produce steel surely has to be close to the source of the ore, but with good access to a bountiful energy supply – be that electricity or coal. Or if the energy source is stupidly cheap or plentiful like Iceland – take the ore to the energy. With the closing of the welsh coal mines I can’t imagine Port Talbot makes a huge amount of sense as a production location. Obviously no consolation for the population/economy that has developed dependant on it.

It strikes me as a missed opportunity for ‘Green’ steelmaking using hydrogen. If we had invested into the R&D (which is surely available at UK Universities + industry) say 20-30 yrs ago, we could be as far along as Sweden.

I’m sure the people of Port Talbot want a future, not charity.

Greater reliance on imports further weakens the UK’s ‘bargaining’ position. I’m not trying to recreate the past, but this option just seems to suit TATA.

Is there an argument to be made for retaining the ability to make “virgin” steel a national security issue? Despite the obvious Co2 emissions. I’ve seen it suggested in some media-reports, but I don’t know whether the argument is valid or not.

The stockholders I use, generally import sections and plates from Europe. There are ships full of steel waiting in the channel to be offloaded.
I guess this will give the suppliers the opportunity to increase their prices yet again ( which they seem to do on a monthly basis anyway) so more VAT in the coffers for the Government so its a winner for them 😉

We’ve recently done a job at a cast iron foundry where they are switching to electric furnaces. At the moment the guys working in there come out looking like a coal miner. Just being in there for 10 mins taking some measurements resulted in black bogeys for a week. So, on the plus side, it should be a better working environment for the lucky ones who still have a job at Port Talbot

convert
Full Member

There was some bickering discussion on R4 about this morning between various workers, experts and politicians. About how long into the future you need to look before arc furnaces can do all steel production. As a listener I came away none the wiser as to what the truth was.

From a global perspective there has to be an argument that the best place to produce steel surely has to be close to the source of the ore, but with good access to a bountiful energy supply – be that electricity or coal. With the closing of the welsh coal mines I can’t imagine Port Talbot makes a huge amount of sense as a production location. Obviously no consolation for the population/economy that has developed dependant on it.

Didn’t Gove just approve a coal mine specifically to boost UK steel production or did I imagine that?

I’m no expert, but there isn’t a fundamental reason not to do primary production from ore to steel without coal/coke. You need heat and hydrogen and carbon to make it happen, and coal made that convenient, but the carbon in the steel is a small percentage and could be from almost any source, even a renewable charcoal. Still takes a lot of windmils or a big lake up a hill to run a sizeable arc furnace, but it can be done, and I guess needs to be as steelmaking is a big chunk of greenhouse gasses currently.

Don’t worry, it’ll all be fine

We’ve been assured by the Brexiteers that the future of UK steel production is exactly the kind of ‘Brexit Dividend’ that we’d all be enjoying once free from the shackles of the EU

Oh….

Obviously no consolation for the population/economy that has developed dependant on it.

I’m sure the people of Port Talbot want a future, not charity.

I’m not convinced that huge numbers of the workers even live in PT any longer. PT has been gradually getting bigger and spreading towards Margam for the last few decades because it has good access to the M4 and is a cheap place to live, which makes it a useful commuter town, NOT because of the ever-diminishing works. And the irony is that the steelworks pumps its pollution over those houses.

Didn’t Gove just approve a coal mine specifically to boost UK steel production or did I imagine that?

I think that was for ‘coking coal’ which is an ingredient (the carbon) in the steel, rather than source of energy for the heat. Regardless, if we no longer make steel, do we need coke…..

It strikes me as a missed opportunity for ‘Green’ steelmaking using hydrogen. If we had invested into the R&D (which is surely available at UK Universities + industry) say 20-30 yrs ago, we could be as far along as Sweden.

There is a lot wrong with this comment, in particular:
– “Green” steelmaking means converting to electric based processes. That’s what they ARE doing in Port Talbot.
– “ Green Hydrogen” is little more the vapourware today: a tiny fraction of the world’s H2 production is Green (ie from non CO2 electricity), whatever the industry hopes about the long term.
– North Sweden has huge advantages as a place to develop electricity based steelmaking, namely a good combination of nuclear, hydro and wind power. So it is not a simple matter of just “the UK did not invest in the R&D” but Sweden did”.

Decarbonising the world’s big heavy industries is a massive and difficult endeavour, not a just a simple matter of “using green Hydrogen”. The political and social impacts, like the job losses in Port Talbot, are just one of the barriers.

Green” steelmaking means converting to electric based processes. That’s what they ARE doing in Port Talbot.

My understanding was that the electric arc process would only deal with recycled steel. Hydrogen would be required (replacing coal as the feedstock and energy source) to produce primary steel. Is that not correct?

Is there an argument to be made for retaining the ability to make “virgin” steel a national security issue?

Bit tricky when you’ve privatised everything, run the economy into the ground for 13+ years and praying that slashing public expenditure in the spring budget will get you elected for another 5 years….

Anyway, on the bright side we can serve wine by the pint….

Coke can be used as fuel and as a reducing agent to convert iron ore into pig iron (by removing the oxygen). That creates CO2. But, by using hydrogen instead of Coke, you get H20. We all know this as water. There are a lot more steps involved, but that’s the fundamental principle.

Electric arc furnaces (EAF) can’t handle iron ore AFAIK. But, they can use DRI, which is an intermediate product between Iron ore and steel. However, the DRI has historically been made using coke. What is being achieved in Sweden is industrial scale production of DRI, using Hydrogen.

And how would you notice? It’s been a dump my whole life, no more so now than when it had many thousands more working there in the 80s.

Well I didn’t want to say, but my impression of it wasn’t very favourable when I last drove past…

Rather than throw any more money at Sunak’s mate who own the plant give the money to the workers to open/start their own businesses

Well I didn’t want to say, but my impression of it wasn’t very favourable when I last drove past…

What do you expect…it’s a steel town not effing Disneyland. And right now, the 2,800 people who are directly losing their jobs (which excludes the 100s in indirect employers) are probably more concerned about how they’re going to live than they are about how ugly Port Talbot is

Rather than throw any more money at Sunak’s mate who own the plant give the money to the workers to open/start their own businesses

Doing what? Making what and selling it to who?!

Regardless, if we no longer make steel, do we need coke…..

In the context of Gove policymaking, I’m struggling to see a link between industrial output and his need for coke.

I grew up in the town and used to work there in the late 90s, writing was on the wall even back then so I retrained and got out.  Tata wanted to sell the place back in 2016 so shouldn’t come as a shock to anyone.  

Yep, town centre is shockingly bad. Can’t see any of the well paid Tata people doing much shopping there.  

Town has got great transport links compared to the valleys so that’s a positive.

As you probably know from Afan etc, place has some really beautiful areas and the beach.

Flash looking Train Station too 🙂

Rather than throw any more money at Sunak’s mate who own the plant give the money to the workers to open/start their own businesses

Doing what? Making what and selling it to who?!

I dunno?, I haven’t spoke to any of the workers. 

Do people still believe in all that CO2 stuff then?

One stat that jumped out for me was that it’s 0.1% of GDP but 2% of our annual pollution, if that is correct then it is surely an unsustainable approach, or as I suspect, is that a massively simplistic way of looking at it?  

0.1% of GDP but 2% of our annual pollution

I suspect that is because we have already outsourced most of our heavy industry, and so much of our pollution, to Eastern Europe, the Middle East,  India and China.

The UK will be, apparently, the only major economy with no capacity to produce virgin steel….whether you think that is a bad thing or not…

One stat that jumped out for me was that it’s 0.1% of GDP but 2% of our annual pollution, if that is correct then it is surely an unsustainable approach, or as I suspect, is that a massively simplistic way of looking at it?

As we slowly migrate things to greener fuel sources, the ones which are hard / not cost effective etc will become a bigger and bigger percentage of our overall greenhouse gas emissions. There may be some things we simply can’t migrate, in which case they end up being 100% of our greenhouse gas emissions even if they’re quite small in GDP terms.

One stat that jumped out for me was that it’s 0.1% of GDP but 2% of our annual pollution, if that is correct then it is surely an unsustainable approach, or as I suspect, is that a massively simplistic way of looking at it?

Yeah, as a nation that mostly gets by financially by cutting each other’s hair, making each other coffee and selling insurance to hair and coffee businesses, the actual industries that make actual stuff will rather stand out in terms of CO2 emissions.

no capacity to produce virgin steel

Bet Branson’s proper pissed about that 😉

Do people still believe in all that CO2 stuff then?

err…it helps to control your respiration rate mate so you better believe in it or you’re well and truly ****.

Where does the raw ore and coal come from for Port Talbot currently?

Trying to remember what I was told when I had a tour when I worked for Corus, I think it was Brazil, but the different colours on the dockside were a reflection of the different mines that supplied ore. You have to keep in mind Port Talbot existed because ore could be imported. Unlike say Shotton which being more inland was doomed.

Tata will just move more production to iJmuden, the slabs can be imported if needed for processing in the UK.

Is it important for a country to be able to produce steel? Are we going to suggest that steel should be renationalised? Because that worked so well last time.

Maybe the way forward is for the UK to be a part of a trading block with the ability to supply goods without relying on the Suez Canal. the cape etc.

My nephew is / was doing a masters placement there for chem.eng. I guess he better get up to speed with arc technology very quickly before he gets his b f h .

I still think it’s useful for an economy like the UK to have steel-making ability. Certainly for the next 50 years, unless a new material can be developed.

The way I see it, Hydrogen-steel is the future, but the UK govt did not mandate this (making DRI with H2) was included in the $500m subsidy it is giving to TATA.