[Closed] Twisty tight singletrack - how do i ride it??

Be mobile on the bike, move yourself about on the bike.

slowly..............like me. 😆

its a totally alien feeling for me - wide rocky stuff is my staple riding

I had the same thing when I moved up to Scotcheggland rob- suddenly there were 180 switchbacks in spaces the width of a peak trail. Smooth, tame, but I couldn't carry speed through them.

I'm fine with them now, and to be honest I couldn't explain why, it's just practice.

the once/twice a year that i ride me are not providing the practice 😉

Get more weight over the front to dig the front wheel into turns a bit more.

Doesn't come easily to those of us used to 'wide rocky stuff' where the biggest risk is the front wheel suddenly stopping resulting in yet another OTB.

Riding a twisty 8" wide groove at even moderate speed is awesome - there is only one line and you have to focus tostay in it. Looking ahead and precision steering is key, remembering that the back wheel trails inside the front helps avoid hooking up. I treat the little ramp up the outside edge of the trail like a mini berm. 95% of the time it works out. The other 5% you clip something and it gets messy.

What screws me up at this time of year is overhanging brambles - they are unavoidable on tight singletrack. Mucho wincing and screaming all the way down. Today, a work colleague in all seriousness was concerned about the state of my arms. I assured him it's not self harming.

Well, yes I suppose it is.

Smoooothness is the key. Try riding slower to be faster if that makes sense. More haste less speed innit.

The best technique I've found is to just ride in a straight line.

Occasionally one of the trees will get in the way 🙂

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Do a skills course - the cornering technique that James Shirley taught me is working a treat for carrying speed and having confidence in corners. Its all about flow and maintaining momentum.

Like Buzz says above, looking ahead works for me. 99% of the riding I do is twisty singletrack, and learning to look 5-10m ahead rather than at the front wheel really helps me maintain speed. Also, I try and stay light on the handlebars otherwise I end up going over them more often than not.

I did a skills course in Sherwood Pines a few years ago, it really helped me in riding singletrack. Suppose I should do another one really.

Being smooth is the important bit, not hammering into corners and then having to slam the brakes on.

look as far along the trail as you can and

and?

I think for the rest you need to cross his palm with silver. Seems a fair deal given the responses thus far.

Sorry it didn't post all my reply.
Stand up and put outside pedal down in corners etc..

Also force the bike from side to side to turn it. So when going left, force the left handle bar down to tip the bike. Right foot down, weight forward, head up. This gets the front tyre to bite and pushing the bars gets the bike to turn, you stay more upright than the bike does, but you still use your body weight to assist in the turn. Its faster to tip the bike than tip your whole body.

Dont do it fast, do it slow till you get better, then you will speed up naturally.

come to Swindon and ride the croft trail, its all about the twisty turny, if you can carry speed on that trail you've got it.

The faster you go the easier* it is

..
[size=1]*easier may not be true, but it's definitely more fun![/size]

Another tip i got was dont put your inside knee out at 90 degrees - Like motorbike racers do.

Instead, imagine your knees are tied together at about 12" bring your inside knee in towards the top tube (outside foot down).

This encourages you to turn your upper body at the hips into the corner, it also encourages you to lean the bike more into the corner (apparently most people dont get the bike over onto the outside knobbles and end up riding on the bit in between the outside and inside tread pattern). This technique also gets you standing higher from your saddle and in turn puts your weight further forward onto the bars and through to tyres.

Anyone would think I'm a bit of an expert after typing all that - in hindsight his instruction was great my execution is still somewhat off ideal.

Stand up, stay loose on the bars, use the pedals to weight the bike through flat or off camber corners , look far ahead and make sure you control your speed before the bend not in it. Keep a fair bit of weight over the bars so the front really digs in and keep your heels down as that helps drive the bike over and through obstacles like roots and stuff. Really it's mostly about staying active and not just being a passenger.

Also go really, really fast because speed is always your friend.

Cut down the fashionably wide bars you may be using?

I'm going to go against the grain here..

I did a skills course and I was shown that if you stand up and keep both pedals level, you can corner far quicker, I always used to have my outside foot down, but it was explained to me as that when you're really in twisty sections (so say right, left, right) you waste energy and time moving the pedal.. so into the right and your left foot is down, into the left and you're swapping to get your right foot down etc etc.

By standing up and keeping the pedals level, you move the bike under you, staying up on the pedals and leaning the bike keeps it planted but is far, far quicker

I was sceptical until I tried it, I've never ridden the top section of Cwm Carn so quickly, a couple of people not on the skills session took off after us and we left them, no pedalling, just using momentum and the ground to build speed. My mate who [i]was[/i] on the course didn't use the technique and was way behind, second time round he did and was flying

I'll await the flames 😉

Trust in the force!

Keeping your peggills up also means you wont catch the tree stump you cant see in the undergrowth.

Here's what I'm trying to do at the moment having watched a load of videos and going on a skills session...

[b]Lower your saddle[/b] (not always possible, but my uppydowny seatpost has transformed my cornering and fun level)

[b]Elbows bent[/b] (to keep more weight over the front and give you room to react in any direction)

[b]Outside pedal down[/b] (for grip)(I've had to unlearn having pedals level). This can mean changing pedal position quite often sometimes, but it's surprising the level of grip it offers.

[b]Look further ahead[/b] than seems natural.

Having ridden in the peaks for 10 years (i.e. straightlining over rocks), I'm finding all this pretty difficult. But it's loads of fun!

this is what beards are for, like cat's whiskers, you know how far to lean over when your hairy chin tickles the bark, carry speed much better this way as it acts as a "sixth sense"

I agree pedals don't have to be down to be weighted. It's a bit like skiing where your hips decide what side your weight is on.. Oh and don't slow down for roots, really, don't. .

I'll admit that I haven't read the whole of this thread but my magic tip that isn't usually mentioned is to practice by not pedalling between the corners.

Quite often people will make mistakes by getting the usual things wrong, and try to compensate by pedalling really hard between the corners. But that tends to just repeat the same mistakes. If you decide not to pedal, you'll enter the corners slower and try to carry more of the speed you have. That's the important bit. Once you're carrying good speed, you can worry about pedalling later.

Register where the trees are then forget about them and concentrate on the trail.

Don't go at it like a bull in a china shop. Don't think 'unless I take this corner REALLY fast, i'm a crap rider' - some corners have to be taken slow.

Start off taking things at a comfortable pace where you feel 100% in control, and then gradually try to take the corners faster until you feel you are at the limits of your skill/traction.

If I hold back and try to 'flow' more I can usually clear a section faster. If I try and force things I can end up understeering, correcting etc. and generally being poo. I

And if you can find a section of twisty singletrack and session it, this is usually the best of all!

close your eyes and scream like that matey off pineapple dance thingy.

This thread has made me want to go riding.

yeah cheers_drive has it right, especially for the stuff at SITS. i was thinking about this a lot whilst riding the wooded sections and i kept finding myself slowing down as my vision got sucked into what was right on top of me, but when i made sure i was looking as far ahead as possible i found i was quicker through it.

also on that kind of stuff, keep pedalling. select a gear which you can spin and be as agile on the bike as you can. sometimes you can lean around trees as your bike keeps more or less in the sam position.

really enjoyed riding these sections, you don't often get chance to do so.

Saddle height. Drop it an inch, this is known as [b]Woods Height[/b]. You can still peggill but you have more mobility and can wear much baggier shorts.

I always refer to that as slipping a comfort inch or two.

On tight switchbacks at the end of straights the key is to let your front wheen follow around the outside of the corner. Intuitively you may want to take the corner really tight (i.e. inside line) after all, it is a tight corner. Try letting yourself drift along the outside and back into it, however, and you'll find it much easier.

It really helps to make whooping noises..

I say, "Look [i]through[/i] the trail, [u]not[/u] down at it."

I'm also a fan of encouraging people to slow their thoughts down in order to go faster - when you're on the hurry-up you can lose clarity, whereas is it faster and more sustainable (not to mention enjoyable) to stay relaxed and keep a sense of flow.

To be fair, much of the singletrack at SITS this year was super narrow and super twisty, so it was a pretty hard lesson in singletrack. I managed to clothesline myself on those two narrow trees and, I'm sorry 29er fans, but my 26in bike went round the corners way better than my whizz-bang 29er...

Try some Thetford riding - the singletrack, while swoopy is a little wider and the trees further apart. It's definitely an acquired skill - but one worth learning.

Your Lynskey looked ace in the flesh

Great tips on this thread. This one intrigues me "if you stand up and keep both pedals level, you can corner far quicker".

I have had problems with the pedal-down approach - catching it on protuberances. I can also see that your technique more leg-extension to pump through the turns.

So maybe it's "outside-foot-down for long turns" and "feet-level-and-pump for quick turns".

Cool. I'm going to try that.

If you really on the edge of grip, an outside pedal down may enable you to keep some grip.

I race motorcycles off road, if its slippy the only way I get grip is by weighting the outside footpeg, if I weighted the inside I would be off. So even with unmovable footpegs it matters when you have very limited grip.

I can see in good grip / not too tight keeping them level is OK, it also improves your chances of not hitting a stump. But in low level grip where you need all you can get you will have an advantage weighting the outside one.

But dont believe me, wait till its winter and try it.

There is no simple answer to technique on how to ride twisty singletrack. As to someone it may prove easy while the other one will struggle at it.

I have been christened by Jedi today, and realised that MTB is not that hard at all. You've been made to believe as it is by -Media- , but boy oh boy ... the quality answer is, you better learn from someone who actually can teach, rather than tell tale* advice.

I did ride at double or sometimes even triple speeds I could ever than before, I know Jedi pointed that to me as it was my failure to over exaggerate it instead of concetrating on the flow and not to brake too hard, but that's another story.

You may find out that -the Truth- could be expensive, and dead simple! Are you prepared to go there ?

Get more weight over the front to dig the front wheel into turns a bit more.

No.

Put your weight as far back as possible. When you turn tightly your bike pivots around the rear wheel. So the closer your centre of mass is to the rear wheel, the more easily and quicker it'll change direction - the more you will be able to turn the front wheel.

It works, try it. Hang your arse over the back as if you were doing a steep drop, and you'll be able to change direction much more easily. This is for low speed uber tight turns mind, not high speed stuff.

It's why more laid back bikes are much quicker through uber-twisty turns (like SITS or seagull at Swinley) than XC race bikes - because your weight is further back.

My 5 was far better through the stuff at SITS than my Heihei - and stacks more fun too.

PS the above is tried and tested from experience, not heard on a skills course or theorised about.

Molgrip you sir are somewhere there, but it may not work for OP. Before going into advanced ticking fine tuning, you really need to see what OP is doing in real life.

Having a chat with sensei, did clear some things for me. What is written in the book or suggested by tell tale rider may not work for OP but may work for other rider. The bike geo does play it's part on steep descent, but it's subjective feeling really to us sunday warriors. Unless of course there are some riders who got -that technical feeling, and understanding of the core basics.

Recently I did try my riding buddies bike with steeper head angles (GT-I Drive) and it was indeed, easier to throw it on twisty stuff, while my bike felt like barge* .
But after all my old habits of riding had been erased, I actually applied basic core and didn't find myself struggling at all with my -barge- . (obviously it took some long and repetitive sessioning to find that -flow-)

I still insist that learning with the right person is the way forward. Obviously some people just refuse their own defeat and find it ridiculous to pay monies for what is essentially very basic skill.

Ignorance is free, education is expensive !

This pedals level thing is really similar to skiing as far as I'm concerned. You're pushing the bike into the turn with your hips not your feet if your heels are down you're also going to control the momentum better and weight the bike into the turn which will give more traction and speed too. I still like to get over the front a bit too though just for the added push into the corner it gives you. It's almost like using a bombhole for a speed boost but sideways sort of thing... I often find my saddle is between my thighs/knees and I'm sort of chucking the bike round from there.

Before going into advanced ticking fine tuning, you really need to see what OP is doing in real life.

Well true, but you also need to look at the trails he's specifically talking about. In this instance, I know cos I also did SITS. The hairpins in questions are stupidly tight and flat (the only other place where I have come across stuff like that is Swinley) and the physics in this specific instance requires you to put your weight back as far as possible.

But I do agree - I was just talking general advice, you would need to see the trail and the rider to give tips I guess.

I take it as those trails mentioned are in some sort technically same, as of in Aston Hill DH5 or whatever it's called (DH 2-4-5 maybe?). It does require a lot of weight back in order to clear very steep switchbacks. But then again, without seeing how OP rider do it, it's a hard guess.
I am no riding god by any means but just sharing my point of view of regular sunday warrior, right* feet/pedal work does give you an amazing grip you never imagined before.
I think, that I spoke way too soon in here, there are core basics which should be programmed into rider's mind before even trying to point out those fine-tune points. It's kind of baking a wonderfull cake from 4 ingridients and missing flour as a base ingridient, substituting it with raisins instead.

Woahh, yauuu !

I've been riding for years, like a lot of us. I'm pretty competent - I loved most of the twisties at SITS, lots of fun.
Only in the last year though have I started thinking logically and objectively about my riding to make me better.

The one thing I've picked up, and now deliberately force myslef into - is changing my lead foot depending on whether i'm going left or right.

It makes a huge difference and is why a lot of people go left better than they go right, or vice versa.

Hitting the S bends - pedals up, twisting with your upper body etc - its sooo much quicker once you learn to put in the half pedal stroke between each turn, so that your lead foot is also your outside foot.

The effect it has is to twist your body in the correct way - if you try to turn left with your left foot leading, your lower body is trying to go a different direction to your upper body.

We all know to look with your head, through the corners, but try to also 'point' with your feet by making your lead foot the outside foot. And if you make sure thay you swap by using a forward pedal stroke, not a back pedal (not always easy I've found!) then the little snatched half pedal strokes also keep the speed up.

If you ski, then it makes a lot of sense. Good thing to practice down a nice open rolling descent or on tarmac, 'carving' and swapping lead feet left to right.

It takes some thinking, but its the one thing thats making me from 'pretty quick' into 'fast' when it comes to twisting and turning singletrack.

It does require a lot of weight back in order to clear very steep switchbacks

They were dead flat, no descent at all.

BMXers get their weight right back when they want to change direction really quickly...

and dont grab handfulls of brake mid corner . The bike will fight it and want to stand upright. Better to go into the corner a couple of mph slower, crank the bike over , off the saddle, and wang it round, pump the exit if time and keep saying 'vanishing point' in your head. This should help you to look to the point the trail disappears from view. Your suspension should be able to take care off the small roots etc that you miss by looking into the distance

Your suspension should be able to take care off the small roots etc that you miss by looking into the distance

Arf!

Popstar, glad you enjoyed the session. On my way back from bmx session now so will be late when I email pics and blog

Don't look at the tree nearest to you or you WILL hit it.

Don't ride with wide DH super-rad bars.

+1 Singletrackmind and Snotrag.

I am heading tomorrow to SH to ride classics and will apply different mindset -Sensei- has tought me. If needed will share my experiences.

Joolsburger, pushing with your hips into corner in my opinion and experience drawed me into trouble of leaning rider first*(motoGP stylee) but not the bike(thus once berm finished bike just washes out without that leaning camber contact/finished grip). Took me long time to correct it and dial out, even still then I struggle not to do it. Guess it's a worst habbit of mine. On flat surface of switching-flicking direction you really need kind of not lean back, but actually push onto your bars weighting onto whichever side you want to go thus achieving - the bike dance - and + right feetwork will make you do an actual brazilian samba !

If I sound weird, do tell me to shut up. I don't mind or I may be totally wrong.

That makes sense molgrips.

Follow up question though:

I've tried that and ultimately gave it up because it just felt wrong with my bad foot forward - off balance.

Do you therefore have to be the foot equivalent of ambidextrous to make that work?

I also have significant problems turning on skis to my right.

Is it possible to learn to be "both-footed" as opposed to left-footed or right-footed? As I can see the benefits in terms of balance etc.

Practise riding without pedalling nor braking. Whilst trying to get the most speed out of it. That'll make you acutely aware of how to get your 'flow' on. Moving your body around the bike (whilst not pedalling) to feel how it affects your forward momentum when riding singletrack. You'll soon pick up some surprising traits. Smoothness rewards you and flatters your riding style. Don't copy Steve Peat. Not until you've learnt that he got where he is today by being smoother than his competitors (he rode HT in the DH when the rest of the field where on FS-and still won). Only now does he look like a mad ape on a bike. So if you wanna copy him, learn how to ride smooth first. Then go balls out for 4 mins. Here endeth the lesson. Amen.
🙂

bedds,
you were taught pedals level in corners??? seriously?

Best advice I had was:

Use as bigger gear as possible
Use the natural berms of tree bases and similar.
Look where you want to go not at the obstacles
Brake as little as possible.

I'll of which I found useful but mostly fail to achieve.

By standing up and keeping the pedals level, you move the bike under you, staying up on the pedals and leaning the bike keeps it planted but is far, far quicker

You can see Steve Peat doing this in seasons - the bike follows the trail, but his bodyweight (and therefore momentum) near enough goes in a straight line.

jhw,

prcatise it. I got more used to left foot forward practising slow tight RH switchbacks. Pegil down is better inmostsituatins but in slow tight steep stuff you do need pegills level IMO. Having your outside pegil forward swivels the hips a bit.

Problem here is most of us are not able to teach! Jedi is probably your man on this as I and I expect 99% of experienced riders are unconscious competents, we know we can do it but we can't really describe how.

I'd like to do a skills day just to find out what shite habits I've got. I always do a days instruction on every ski trip and it helps massively got to be the same for a bike.

on ski trips do you reckon it's best to do the instruction on day 1 when you're most fresh/no bad habits, or day 2-3 when you're a bit more warmed up?

the bike follows the trail, but his bodyweight (and therefore momentum) near enough goes in a straight line.

Yeah but the corners in question here (the ones on SITS) are several complete 180 degree changes in direction. So your body weight can't go in a straight line.

This is why I am saying things that seem weird - because most trails aren't like this. It's a special case.

Think of it like a BMXer leaning right over and back, and whipping his bike around on the back wheel.

Like people above say, i reckon I'm reasonably competent on twisty stuff like Swinley / Thetford but I'm not entirely sure why. Practice, of course, but technically I'm not sure what I am doing to be reasonably fast through the trees.

But here's what I *think* I do:

Weight on outside pedal
In general - weight a bit back a la Molgrips seems to make the front more manoueverable - although you need to be aware of what the front is doing and which corners need weighting to stop wash out, which again is practice if you ride the same trails fairly frequently
Keep looking past the corner and on to the next section, and I try to consciously turn my shoulders and chest around the corner to do this.
Don't look at the trail 18" in front of your front wheel. At that point it's too late, your going to hit it anyway, and it's surprising how much your memory retains: the bit 18" in front was the same bit you looked at a few seconds ago when it was a few yards away, trust your skillz at this point (Or your 150mm of plush travel)

So to confirm

Ride pedals level or outside pedal down or leading pedla weighted and change that corner to corner

Have your weight central or forward or right back

Have your saddle up or down or somewhere in the middle

Get your weight over the bars and dig the front wheel in or don't do that at all

Drive the bike from your hips or really don't do this and weight the pedals and use your shoulders to influence the turn

Consistently the one thing we all agree on is [b]look far far ahead[b].

Also look at the corner too - need to watch for those roots.

Hmm. Look to the [i]next[/i] corner (not the one you're on), and why look at roots?

Cos when you are going round really tight corners, they are often around trees. Near to trees, the roots are often larger, radial and slope away from the corner. If it's a well used trail they'll be polished, and if they are wet too then all this is a recipe for slippage and being knocked off line.

I'm sure every contributor to this thread has a different twisty bit of trail in mind. However the OP was talking about some specific turns that I also rode.. 🙂

What I meant was, looking at them can't change them!

My favourite kind of riding is fast-ish, middle-ring & very woodsy singletrack - the kind of thing Bontragers were made for.

My preferred method is to visualise Princess Leia aboard an imperial speeder bike.