Trailer vs Panniers for a road-based cycle tour

Factor this!

Oops double post

Certainly looks more aero without front panniers.

Aero drag? What drag?

in those pics above, it’s steering not gyro effect that keep them upright ) TJ and I could’ve saved a lot of typing with one of those images )

TJ, camber thrust and gyro precession are both things that would need far better mathematic ability than i have to understand what level of influence they have on riding a bike, what i’m getting at is that it’s steering and the rider and bike’s weight / position of their weight that has by far the greatest influence at most riding speeds and hence why i feel that panniers (esp on the front) mean you need a bit more effort to control the bike.

the wheel will roll upright for a while, gyroscopic effect will mean it will stay upright far longer than if it was static, but its c of g is central and it will fall before it hits a speed where it can stay upright. but in theory, could it stay upright at a crazy-high impossible speed if the road and wheel were ‘perfect’? ie when the gyro forces massively outbalance the wheel’s weight? wouldn’t it need some kind of counter-weights hanging down each side from the axle for the precession to act against?

it also depends on what bike you are planning to ride,
on a tourer or audax or mtb, you should have plenty of heel clearance, but on a more racy bike you may not, in which case a trailer may be better.
if you are taking a fair load, you may also need to think about uprating the brakes, 50mph onto a roundabout with the brakes full on aint fun, trust me!
above all, the object is to have fun, so enjoy!.

But what about fruitcake? In a crash fruitcake would be much better protected on a trailer than in a pannier. If you kept your pump on the trailer its far less likely to get caught in your sock and your fruitcake wouldn’t get damaged on one side.

We’re complete noobs at tandeming, yet we managed to balance this just fine, even at silly low speeds, and a few ‘sports beverages’ inside the captain … :

A shorter pump, thats the answer.

Pumps shortened while U wait

Does your lovely daughter like Tizer? Eh?
Wouldn’t mind buying her a bottle of Tizer…. if it’s available in this area, that is.

TJ you are wrong. typed out an explanation but lost it.

one of us is a maths graduate remember 😉

Actual paper on bike stability

Its a bit mad and to be honest I haven’t finished reading it. But the author built a bike with a contra rotating front wheel, just off the ground. The bike was apparently fine to ride thus undermining the gyo theory of bike stability. It was hard to ride no handed and if you pushed it unladden and let go it fell over

Al – I ain’t squire – Nothing I claimed is wrong. Read what I wrote.

You have got muddled up. Sometimes you need to step back and ponder

Wind resistance is directly proportional to frontal area and exponential to speed.

example I gave I very clearly said it was anecdotal, not replicable and that there would be other factors involved.

..and that’s how they were damaged….the eggs…you remember…the hard-boiled eggs I was telling you about…they were in a tupperware container, reputedly self-sealing, which fell open upon contact with the tarmacadam surface of the road….the B489…the Dawlish road… That shouldn’t really happen to a self-sealing container, should it? What do you keep your hard-boiled eggs in? I think in future I shall lash them to the handlebars with adhesive tape…this should obviate a recurrence of the same problem…well I can’t stop here all day…I’m on a cycling tour of North Cornwall. Must be off.

The stability of my bike with panniers is only a problem when i’m trying to push it one handed through barriers at train stations etc. Seems much easier for it to fall over, i assume because the weight is right back behind the rear axle.

Also seems a bit unstable when out of the saddle with heavy panniers as they swing about a bit.

Its mostly fine though, and i’m sure you’ll quickly adapt your riding style to either a trailer or panniers.

skidartist – Member
But what about fruitcake? In a crash fruitcake would be much better protected on a trailer than in a pannier. If you kept your pump on the trailer its far less likely to get caught in your sock and your fruitcake wouldn’t get damaged on one side.

This would only be applicable if undertaking a tour of North Cornwall with Clodagh Rodgers and Trotsky

Coronworl…oh yes know Coronworl very well. Went to school there, mother and father live there, ah yes. Go many weekend parties and polo playing cards in blidge club. Belong many clubs in Coronworld.

TJ I’ve read it, I’ve presented my argument and you’ve just said it’s wrong.

I CBA discussing it if that’s all you can be bothered to do.

Pither, like ‘Brotherhood’ but with a ‘P.I’ instead of a ‘B.R.O.’. And no ‘hood’

September 2nd. Did not fall off outside Iddesley.

Fell off in Tavistock.

What a stroke of luck. My Crunchie was totally intact. I settled down to a quick intermeal snack…

Al – its late,l I have been drinking beer, according to the others I may have lost my fruitcake.

i am really unclear on what you think I have got wrong. try to expalin what you think I have wrong \and I’ll pick it up tomorrow -0 or realise that its splitting hairs or counting angels or misunderstandings and forget about it.

How could you miss?

He moved

TJ

“and as its exponential (square IIRC ) its not 30%
but more like 70%.”

that bit. no way can panniers add 70% more drag.

does touring really reduce you to 3pages of physics?

please say no as i have just turned 31 and have decided to start, the beard is ready.

thebikechain – Member
does touring really reduce you to 3pages of physics?

Only if you use a trailer

I will not be using a trailer then.

Surely it should be fun and not a worry over frontal area and castor!!

No your born with the physics. If you haven’t got it now you won’t

It doesn’t matter what the question is, a trailer isn’t the answer.

Al – at no point did I say that.

You claimed that – I did not. I siad that with the bulky front panniers on out terminal velocity of the Glencoe road was around 35mph when on similar roads without panniers we reached 45+.

This was an observation that I stated was anecdotal.

Drag is directly proportional to frontal area. I don’t understand how you get the 70% figure from – it makes no sense.

TJ of course you didn’t say that. but it’s not wrong.

your point is that the panniers created enough wind resistance to slow you down by 10mph or 30%.

as wind resistance increases with the square of speed that would require the wind resistance to have increased by the square of 30%. you calculate that by squaring 1.3, which gives you 1.69 which I rounded to 1.7, ie 70%.

if you don’t understand this then fair enough but that doesn’t make it wrong (and can a numeratd person back me us please).

Come on, dear. Wake up dear.
Mother!
Come on dear.
So, it was all a dream.
No dear, this is the dream, you’re still in the cell.

nightmare more like!

Cynic-al is correct in that if the drag factor is the same then a 30% decrease in terminal speed means a 70% increase in area. Thats keeping the mass of both bikes the same….

NO! wind resistance, not just area.

Al – it is far more complex than that and you are getting confused anyway.

Wind resistance increases in proportion to frontal area. The squaring only take place a s you bring speed into it. which produces the drag

You are confusing concepts here and its led you into an error. drag coefficient ( wind resistance) and drag ( retarding force)

http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=bicycle+stability+OR+dynamics&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2000&as_ylo=&as_vis=0

ok by wind resistance I mean drag (ie force), coefficient of drag is different I know and I thought that would have been obvious, how could anyone confuse that with force?

if I am wrong them what is the explanation?

The explanation is that the panniers increased the drag to the point that the bike reached a lower terminal velocity and that I could feel this.

My post above is somewhat garbled as well. and I have reached beyond my knowledge now.

All I know is I could really feel the increased wind resistance with a bulky set of front panniers. I don’t know how much they added to the frontal area or the drag coefficient. Just that it was a lot, it was obvious and it slowed us right down

You brought the maths into it and what you have presented makes no logical sense to me. i think you are confusing concepts.

ah, so you don’t know what I am talking about and yet you are arguing I must be wrong.

a new low.

must stop wasting my time.