Ti frames – why the fashion for plate dropouts? Are they not weaker?

I've just seen pics of the new Cotic Soda made by Merlin. Lovely looking bike but why along with Lynskey, On One, Ragley etc is there a switch to fugly plate drop outs? Are these stronger or weaker than Breezer style drop outs? I'm sure many of you may have seen the pics on this forum of the broken Ti 456 drop out where the whole rear drop out came away from the frame. I make no pretence of being an engineer but wonder whether the surface area is such that these frames are weaker than they could otherwise be? Why the switch to this style? Is it a case of fashion over function? Not looking to troll here but genuinely interested in finding out the answer.

Cheers

Sanny

Merlin have used water/laser cut flat dropouts since forever AFAIK.

Basically they are just cheaper, cos spending an extra £50 is totally not worth it when shelling out £1300 for a frame, cos your like totally paying for 'the ride' man or whatever..

Merlin have used water/laser cut flat dropouts since forever AFAIK.

Yes but they use nicer bullet style terminations on the stays, much nicer than the slabs of plate you see on 'modern' Ti.

Cheaper i'd imagine. Cast/forged drops cost a lot to get made, the toolings then fixed, so you have to keep using that same drop-out for a good while. You could use drop-outs made by someone else, but understandably, it's not a great selling point.

When I look at my Ti Ibis, the Breezer style dropout just looks right. There is more weld apparent than on the newer style plate drop outs. Does that mean the latter is weaker given that there is less area joined between the two bits of metal?

Cheers

Sanny

Where are pics of new Soda please??

Plate is cheaper and more versatile.

weld area is a specific thing, the breezer style could well have been over engineered. ergo, yes it could be weaker but still more than strong enough

Cheaper because the 6AL4V Ti used for a lot of dropouts is damn hard to work.

cookie cutter dropouts = cheaper.

a la, the bottom range of halfords bikes?

shame really, some nice cnc/cowled dropouts would be worth an extra 50-100 quid i think…

Got to agree I think the cowled dropouts on the old Soda are nicer than those on the new merlin built one

You don't get the nice little Merlin badge on the old dropouts though… 😉

They work fine if welded properly – wasn't the 456 one broken on the NDS – i.e. due to braking forces?

It beggars belief to me that someone would chose a bike based on plate (functional, better value) v cowled (overengineered, waste of £) dropouts but there you go.

also, it wasn't the dropouts that failed or the weld, it was the the tubes

My plate Ti dropouts.

If it's got a lifetime warranty on it, would I need to worry? I'd prefer Crud mounts than cowled dropouts if you're reading this Cy? 😉

I wouldn't worry about flat plate dropouts as these ugly beggers are on a 12 yearr old Raliegh and it's built out of Russian chemical tubing – non of this fancy 6AL4V Ti rubbish!

I've also got an even older Ti Dynatech mtb with even uglier flate plate dropouts thats still going strong.

I had one of those Raleigh Russian ti things a few years back, until some light fingered git of dubious parentage releived me of it. I'd have another in a heartbeat. Even liked the plate dropout.

I could have spec'd plate dropouts but opted instead for Wright style hooded dropouts on advice of my builder who said that they offer a better surface to weld the stays onto, hence creating a stronger joint.
Another advantage of Wright style dropouts is that it is possible to change the hanger should it get damaged.

The reason so many "lower end" builders use plate dropouts is because they are cheap, due to their lower production costs.

Not exactly ugly, but not in the same league as cowled dropouts.

It beggars belief to me that someone would chose a bike based on plate (functional, better value) v cowled (overengineered, waste of £) dropouts but there you go.

and yet spending £1000+ on a frame that performs 99% as well as a £200 one makes total sense?

Cynic Al and thepodge

The one that I saw fail (Ti 456) was on the disc side and it was the weld that failed and not the tubes. Click on the link below and you'll see what I mean. To my eyes, there's not a lot of weld area nor tube overlap particularly on the top weld. Would I buy a Lynskey made frame as a result? Probably not now.

Cheers

Sanny

Which type of drop out is this?

It's an Airborne Lancaster.

Plate dropouts make it much easier to do a belt drive conversion 🙂

Hi Coleman –
"I wouldn't worry about flat plate dropouts as these ugly beggers are on a 12 yearr old Raliegh and it's built out of Russian chemical tubing – non of this fancy 6AL4V Ti rubbish!"

Interesting..care to elaborate…?? are you talking about OT4-1?? as far as I know they never used that

As far as I remember all Raleighs where made of CP Ti … and built in house with tubing from Timet.. My memories not so good these days though… All though Justin at WHYTE would be able to reel off a full history!

And Chemical titanium … ???? 😉 help me with this one?

Zone

This is Ot4-1 …. equivalent to 6al4v, but NOT tubes from rolled and seemed plate… This is drawn, variable walled, tapered and ovalised tubes…Raiegh never had this AFAIK !

There is only two machines in the world that can draw and taper this Ti in the style of steel… 😉
As far as the plate dropouts …. you need slot the tube, not too much heat… and know contamination!!! If you can increase the wall thickness at this point it can help with the the issue of welding such different thickness's and heat….

Test frame production date 1992 I believe… number 18…

You want Ugly 😆 but 99.9999999999999999% sure it's never going to fail…

So, Sanny, your point is now about a failure from one manufacturer, rather than cowled v plate dropouts?

STATO – Member

and yet spending £1000+ on a frame that performs 99% as well as a £200 one makes total sense?

There's a huge difference between the 2 and you know it.

I'm with STATO on this. I had a Kona King Kahuna (SANDVIK) and an Explosif.

Besides a few ounces there was **** all difference between them when out riding… 😀

FWIW, it still had 6/4 plate dropouts despite a retail of £1600!

So its worth spending £1100 on a Ti456 over a £125 steel 456 because it rides better? and not worth spending £50-100 more to make your new purchase look nicer?

What about £1300 on a Ti ragley over a £275 Alu one? Is it that much better a ride to spend that sort of money or are you justifying some of that cost because its nicer looking to, if so why not spend a little more on getting the details nicer? (i wish he had with those hideous cable guides!)

Im not arguing that a Ti frame isnt better, i actually agree, but im just saying that no one will be paying that much JUST because its a better ride, some of that decision will be because its nicer looking, and if thats the case why not spend a little more (and it is little in comparison to the cost) making it even nicer.

dunno, I quite like the Tom Ritchey style dropouts, and if I was brazing up my own frames thats what I'd use purely for asthetic reasons.

As for the difference between Ti and steel frames I'm becoming less and less convinced theres a difference between any of them. Just re-read the dirt article where they painted up a charge ti-duster and leant it to riders to compare against a regular steel one. The only visual difference (apart from tube profiles) was one has a QR seatclamp and one had a bolt up. The riders were told the frames were different, but were given different informtion each time.

The riders seemed to find whatever difference they were told was there. One or the other was more springy/harsh, one had steeper angles, etc etc etc. so you could conclude that what seatclamp you have has more of an impact than what your frames made from.

Ohh and given that one frame designer who posts on here harping on about it all being down to carefull butting and design, then building his frames from rolled rather than drawn tubes?

My understanding is that the new Soda is very much a Cotic/Merlin collaboration, hence Merlin taking the lead on some things. Dropouts are theirs, as is the chainstay bridge instead of chainstay gussets. Certain things have to be done "their" time tested way if they're going to back up the build with their mad warranty terms. What Cotic bring to the party is the design of the custom tubing, and, of course, the handling.

Hey Zone – font of all welded Raleigh knowledge! I know of 3 people with the Raleigh frame(it was Timet tubing – I had a leaflet from an aerospace show). The dropouts might be bomb proof, but they all cracked in weird places.

2 cracked at the rear seatstay wishbone, both ridden by female racers weighing max 60 kg.

1 (actually an X Lite but pretty sure it was the same frame rebadged with a matt finish) cracked right around the down tube but maybe 2 – 3 inches behind the down tube / head tube weld.

cynic-al

No the point still stands about any manufacturer that uses the plate style dropouts. It's not just Lynskey who use that style but it's their frame that I saw break which prompted my question of whether plate style dropouts are more prone to failure than other designs. There appears to be a fairly recent proliferation of this style of dropout for Ti frames across several manufacturers which would make me ask whether they help increase margin but aren't necessarily a design improvement?

Cheers

Sanny

"Just re-read the dirt article where they painted up a charge ti-duster and leant it to riders to compare against a regular steel one. The only visual difference (apart from tube profiles) was one has a QR seatclamp and one had a bolt up. The riders were told the frames were different, but were given different informtion each time.

The riders seemed to find whatever difference they were told was there. One or the other was more springy/harsh, one had steeper angles, etc etc etc. so you could conclude that what seatclamp you have has more of an impact than what your frames made from."

— or you could conclude that some people are not good bike testers and some are; knowing what to look for and how to test for it is different to just being given a bike and asked for a comment. ie some riders are 'princess and the pea' type, some just get on and ride anything quite happily. it's the same thing that means a world cup racer is not necessarily going to make a great bike designer. ti and steel are very different materials to work with and you can get different results. i can't imagine the steel and ti charge do ride the same in reality, but you're right to say that some won't appreicate any significant differences.

yes, but im going to stick my neck out that they picked significantly above average riders, probably racers, probably a handfull of pro's even.

The fact they didn't get an overwhelming conclusion in favour of Ti kinda hints that maybe its not all its cracked up to be.

Or it could just be that STW'ers are princess and pea types and dirt readers are neaderthals dragging arround rusty lumps of iron.

hehe maybe )

i think the ability to perceive and isolate differences is learnt and in part comes from experience but has little to do with riding ability, assuming you're able to ride at a competent level on technical stuff. understanding things from a design pov first helps too.

some ti bikes ride like some other peoples steel bikes, yes, but i reckon the charge bikes in that test would show quite different results on a test bench. but it's like £1500 bikes and £2500 bikes – diminishing returns. light weight plus a durable finish sells ti as much as perceived ride feel, as does the lust factor – any bike that makes you feel like riding more often is a good thing, and i'd say whatever it takes to give you that feeling is more worth spending cash on that a new car )

my ti genesis is a noticably but subtly different ride to the 853, same angles but i use them in different ways with set-ups that suit the differences.

Did that 456 get warranteed? Usually things break at the weakest point which suggests that the welding possibly wasn't upto scratch, that the area where the stays join the dropouts was too small or both. I have never heard of breezer style dropouts goin like that.

Is the 456 Lynskey or Taiwanese made?

thisisnotaspoon , Not me I hope.. harping on 😉 just proud of what we achieved…

Ours where drawn, tapered,ovalised, variable wall thickness (internally and externally) to exacting design for riding characteristics needed.And it works! I'd do the pepsi/coke challenge blank frame test no problem.

This thing has that spring but also has that stomp and fire acceleration of alloy… but absorbs trail buzz like an anaesthetic, but feeds trail changes fantastic.. we really did try to tick all the boxes…. The variable butting reduces weight with no stress concentration points… this added to an mpa rating at about the same as reynolds 753 due to the rolls royce milspec finish.. and viola!

We went for the plate drop outs cos they are the best thing for the job…. 😀

We are trying at this time to produce them again!

Zone

Drop-out on the new Lynskey built Hummer

sanny, which ti ibis do you have ? I assume one of the older tiMojo's?

cheers
joe