[Closed] Ti frames - why the fashion for plate dropouts? Are they not weaker?

Merlin have used water/laser cut flat dropouts since forever AFAIK.

Basically they are just cheaper, cos spending an extra £50 is totally not worth it when shelling out £1300 for a frame, cos your like totally paying for 'the ride' man or whatever..

Merlin have used water/laser cut flat dropouts since forever AFAIK.

Yes but they use nicer bullet style terminations on the stays, much nicer than the slabs of plate you see on 'modern' Ti.

Cheaper i'd imagine. Cast/forged drops cost a lot to get made, the toolings then fixed, so you have to keep using that same drop-out for a good while. You could use drop-outs made by someone else, but understandably, it's not a great selling point.

When I look at my Ti Ibis, the Breezer style dropout just looks right. There is more weld apparent than on the newer style plate drop outs. Does that mean the latter is weaker given that there is less area joined between the two bits of metal?

Cheers

Sanny

Where are pics of new Soda please??

Plate is cheaper and more versatile.

weld area is a specific thing, the breezer style could well have been over engineered. ergo, yes it could be weaker but still more than strong enough

Cheaper because the 6AL4V Ti used for a lot of dropouts is damn hard to work.

cookie cutter dropouts = cheaper.

a la, the bottom range of halfords bikes?

shame really, some nice cnc/cowled dropouts would be worth an extra 50-100 quid i think...

Got to agree I think the cowled dropouts on the old Soda are nicer than those on the new merlin built one

You don't get the nice little Merlin badge on the old dropouts though... 😉

They work fine if welded properly - wasn't the 456 one broken on the NDS - i.e. due to braking forces?

It beggars belief to me that someone would chose a bike based on plate (functional, better value) v cowled (overengineered, waste of £) dropouts but there you go.

also, it wasn't the dropouts that failed or the weld, it was the the tubes

My plate Ti dropouts.
[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=ywykit&outx=600&quality=70 [/img]

If it's got a lifetime warranty on it, would I need to worry? I'd prefer Crud mounts than cowled dropouts if you're reading this Cy? 😉

I wouldn't worry about flat plate dropouts as these ugly beggers are on a 12 yearr old Raliegh and it's built out of Russian chemical tubing - non of this fancy 6AL4V Ti rubbish!

[IMG] [/IMG]

I've also got an even older Ti Dynatech mtb with even uglier flate plate dropouts thats still going strong.

I had one of those Raleigh Russian ti things a few years back, until some light fingered git of dubious parentage releived me of it. I'd have another in a heartbeat. Even liked the plate dropout.

I could have spec'd plate dropouts but opted instead for Wright style hooded dropouts on advice of my builder who said that they offer a better surface to weld the stays onto, hence creating a stronger joint.
Another advantage of Wright style dropouts is that it is possible to change the hanger should it get damaged.

[img] [/img]

The reason so many "lower end" builders use plate dropouts is because they are cheap, due to their lower production costs.

[img] [/img]

Not exactly ugly, but not in the same league as cowled dropouts.

It beggars belief to me that someone would chose a bike based on plate (functional, better value) v cowled (overengineered, waste of £) dropouts but there you go.

and yet spending £1000+ on a frame that performs 99% as well as a £200 one makes total sense?

Cynic Al and thepodge

The one that I saw fail (Ti 456) was on the disc side and it was the weld that failed and not the tubes. Click on the link below and you'll see what I mean. To my eyes, there's not a lot of weld area nor tube overlap particularly on the top weld. Would I buy a Lynskey made frame as a result? Probably not now.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/markforrest/2936268718/in/set-72157607836159597/

Cheers

Sanny

Which type of drop out is this?

[img] [/img]

It's an Airborne Lancaster.

Plate dropouts make it much easier to do a belt drive conversion 🙂

Hi Coleman -
"I wouldn't worry about flat plate dropouts as these ugly beggers are on a 12 yearr old Raliegh and it's built out of Russian chemical tubing - non of this fancy 6AL4V Ti rubbish!"

Interesting..care to elaborate...?? are you talking about OT4-1?? as far as I know they never used that

As far as I remember all Raleighs where made of CP Ti ... and built in house with tubing from Timet.. My memories not so good these days though... All though Justin at WHYTE would be able to reel off a full history!

And Chemical titanium ... ???? 😉 help me with this one?

Zone

[img] ?t=1255511108[/img]

This is Ot4-1 .... equivalent to 6al4v, but NOT tubes from rolled and seemed plate... This is drawn, variable walled, tapered and ovalised tubes...Raiegh never had this AFAIK !

There is only two machines in the world that can draw and taper this Ti in the style of steel... 😉
As far as the plate dropouts .... you need slot the tube, not too much heat... and know contamination!!! If you can increase the wall thickness at this point it can help with the the issue of welding such different thickness's and heat....

Test frame production date 1992 I believe... number 18...

[img] ?t=1255513293[/img]

You want Ugly 😆 but 99.9999999999999999% sure it's never going to fail...

So, Sanny, your point is now about a failure from one manufacturer, rather than cowled v plate dropouts?

STATO - Member

and yet spending £1000+ on a frame that performs 99% as well as a £200 one makes total sense?

There's a huge difference between the 2 and you know it.

I'm with STATO on this. I had a Kona King Kahuna (SANDVIK) and an Explosif.

Besides a few ounces there was [b]**** all[/b] difference between them when out [i]riding[/i]... 😀

FWIW, it still had 6/4 plate dropouts despite a retail of £1600!

So its worth spending £1100 on a Ti456 over a £125 steel 456 because it rides better? and not worth spending £50-100 more to make your new purchase look nicer?

What about £1300 on a Ti ragley over a £275 Alu one? Is it that much better a ride to spend that sort of money or are you justifying some of that cost because its nicer looking to, if so why not spend a little more on getting the details nicer? (i wish he had with those hideous cable guides!)

Im not arguing that a Ti frame isnt better, i actually agree, but im just saying that no one will be paying that much JUST because its a better ride, some of that decision will be because its nicer looking, and if thats the case why not spend a little more (and it is little in comparison to the cost) making it even nicer.

dunno, I quite like the Tom Ritchey style dropouts, and if I was brazing up my own frames thats what I'd use purely for asthetic reasons.

As for the difference between Ti and steel frames I'm becoming less and less convinced theres a difference between any of them. Just re-read the dirt article where they painted up a charge ti-duster and leant it to riders to compare against a regular steel one. The only visual difference (apart from tube profiles) was one has a QR seatclamp and one had a bolt up. The riders were told the frames were different, but were given different informtion each time.

The riders seemed to find whatever difference they were told was there. One or the other was more springy/harsh, one had steeper angles, etc etc etc. so you could conclude that what seatclamp you have has more of an impact than what your frames made from.

Ohh and given that one frame designer who posts on here harping on about it all being down to carefull butting and design, then building his frames from rolled rather than drawn tubes?

My understanding is that the new Soda is very much a Cotic/Merlin collaboration, hence Merlin taking the lead on some things. Dropouts are theirs, as is the chainstay bridge instead of chainstay gussets. Certain things have to be done "their" time tested way if they're going to back up the build with their mad warranty terms. What Cotic bring to the party is the design of the custom tubing, and, of course, the handling.

Hey Zone - font of all welded Raleigh knowledge! I know of 3 people with the Raleigh frame(it was Timet tubing - I had a leaflet from an aerospace show). The dropouts might be bomb proof, but they all cracked in weird places.

2 cracked at the rear seatstay wishbone, both ridden by female racers weighing max 60 kg.

1 (actually an X Lite but pretty sure it was the same frame rebadged with a matt finish) cracked right around the down tube but maybe 2 - 3 inches behind the down tube / head tube weld.

cynic-al

No the point still stands about any manufacturer that uses the plate style dropouts. It's not just Lynskey who use that style but it's their frame that I saw break which prompted my question of whether plate style dropouts are more prone to failure than other designs. There appears to be a fairly recent proliferation of this style of dropout for Ti frames across several manufacturers which would make me ask whether they help increase margin but aren't necessarily a design improvement?

Cheers

Sanny

"Just re-read the dirt article where they painted up a charge ti-duster and leant it to riders to compare against a regular steel one. The only visual difference (apart from tube profiles) was one has a QR seatclamp and one had a bolt up. The riders were told the frames were different, but were given different informtion each time.

The riders seemed to find whatever difference they were told was there. One or the other was more springy/harsh, one had steeper angles, etc etc etc. so you could conclude that what seatclamp you have has more of an impact than what your frames made from."

--- or you could conclude that some people are not good bike testers and some are; knowing what to look for and how to test for it is different to just being given a bike and asked for a comment. ie some riders are 'princess and the pea' type, some just get on and ride anything quite happily. it's the same thing that means a world cup racer is not necessarily going to make a great bike designer. ti and steel are very different materials to work with and you can get different results. i can't imagine the steel and ti charge do ride the same in reality, but you're right to say that some won't appreicate any significant differences.

yes, but im going to stick my neck out that they picked significantly above average riders, probably racers, probably a handfull of pro's even.

The fact they didn't get an overwhelming conclusion in favour of Ti kinda hints that maybe its not all its cracked up to be.

Or it could just be that STW'ers are princess and pea types and dirt readers are neaderthals dragging arround rusty lumps of iron.

hehe maybe )

i think the ability to perceive and isolate differences is learnt and in part comes from experience but has little to do with riding ability, assuming you're able to ride at a competent level on technical stuff. understanding things from a design pov first helps too.

some ti bikes ride like some other peoples steel bikes, yes, but i reckon the charge bikes in that test would show quite different results on a test bench. but it's like £1500 bikes and £2500 bikes - diminishing returns. light weight plus a durable finish sells ti as much as perceived ride feel, as does the lust factor - any bike that makes you feel like riding more often is a good thing, and i'd say whatever it takes to give you that feeling is more worth spending cash on that a new car )

my ti genesis is a noticably but subtly different ride to the 853, same angles but i use them in different ways with set-ups that suit the differences.

Did that 456 get warranteed? Usually things break at the weakest point which suggests that the welding possibly wasn't upto scratch, that the area where the stays join the dropouts was too small or both. I have never heard of breezer style dropouts goin like that.

Is the 456 Lynskey or Taiwanese made?

[img] [/img]

[b]thisisnotaspoon[/b] , Not me I hope.. harping on 😉 just proud of what we achieved...

Ours where drawn, tapered,ovalised, variable wall thickness (internally and externally) to exacting design for riding characteristics needed.And it works! I'd do the pepsi/coke challenge blank frame test no problem.

This thing has that spring but also has that stomp and fire acceleration of alloy... but absorbs trail buzz like an anaesthetic, but feeds trail changes fantastic.. we really did try to tick all the boxes.... The variable butting reduces weight with no stress concentration points... this added to an mpa rating at about the same as reynolds 753 due to the rolls royce milspec finish.. and viola!

We went for the plate drop outs cos they are the best thing for the job.... 😀

We are trying at this time to produce them again!

Zone

Drop-out on the new Lynskey built Hummer

[img] [/img]

sanny, which ti ibis do you have ? I assume one of the older tiMojo's?

cheers
joe

Shenanigans - that's a Cotic Soda dropout! 😉

Just bought a Van Nic Tuareg ,am I heading for a world of plate dropout nightmares ? :~( http://tinyurl.com/yh2rxqv

fasthaggis at least Van Nicolas offer you a lifetime warranty. It doesn't seem to be something many other Ti frames come with. I rather like the look of the Zion Rohloff with the belt drive. Quite easy to build it up under 25lbs as well.

Avdave

I have had a Ti hardtail frame for the last few years that I have really liked ,but it didn't have any disc mount points on it.
I was thinking about getting some welded on,but then started looking around at new frames instead.
I had been going to get a Voodoo D-jab ,but halfords ****ed it up ,so I went for the Tuareg instead. Looking forward to getting it built up.

Would I buy a Lynskey made frame as a result? Probably not now.

What if they were £799?

Subtle!!! :o)

Are they defo the lynskey versions.. can't get to hotmail to check the mailshot!!!.

What is the finish like???

at least Van Nicolas offer you a lifetime warranty. It doesn't seem to be something many other Ti frames come with.

Lifetime until they change their name again.

PS: I'm bopping around on a steel frame now.

 

or you could conclude that some people are not good bike testers and some are; knowing what to look for and how to test for it is different to just being given a bike and asked for a comment.

[img] [/img]
/p>

[img] [/img]

Mark Lynskey just added a rear strengthening strut to increase strength on the rear end, its not the prettiest addition or the subtlest, .....

Hmmmm... directional bike frames anyone? To go with the chain lube?

Oh, hold on.... :oD

Brant

At that price, it's a tough call. The cheap Scotsman in me thinks that's a bit of a bargain if the brace is a solution which would stop the frame from snapping. 😀 Whether I would be pragmatic enough to ignore the fact that the not necessarily statistically sound sample of one of my mates ending up doing a very long walk off a big mountain coloured my judgement of Lynskey made frames is another question. 😉

Cheers

Sanny

Sanny - One bike breaks at the welds and you tar all of them with that brush?

Not sure if the point has already been made, but there may well be greater variation in weld strength than the strength of the dropout design.

aracer - Member

or you could conclude that some people are not good bike testers and some are; knowing what to look for and how to test for it is different to just being given a bike and asked for a comment.

You're right - the crucial part is knowing what you're looking for.

So why the extra brace then if there's not a problem? Have On One had many of these back?

Druidh - did that just fail from regular riding, what caused it?

Haddock - not mine, just linking the two facts together. On One obviously think there may be a design fault or they would not have needed that change. If I'd bought one of the previous design, I'd be a bit concerned.

mmm, not been loads of snapped ti 456's popping up on here, though admit its quite an addition to the frame in light of that pic.

haddock - Member
mmm, not been loads of snapped ti 456's popping up on here, though admit its quite an addition to the frame in light of that pic.

I wonder if the proportion of snapped frames is more or less than Commencal or Cotic?

Prob not! A fair few commencals have popped up on here! Still nice bikes though if you get a good un.

How do you strike the balance between style and substance though? Surely strength is far more important than looks?

Not sure what point you are making

Would that strut on the new on-one even be noticed on a fully built bike?

The lynsky built ti ibis limited has a similar strutt. They should have made them with the same disk mount as Steve potts makes... Stunning and disperses the stress down the tube I am told!

The really funny thing is that we had no idea Mark has added the strut to the rear stays until we opened the boxes yesterday , ( maybe I vaguely recall him saying something) but we ordered these frames way back in May and its been a very long delivery wait and I cant remember what happened last week let alone May. There were a few breakages , maybe 3 or 4 (out of quite a lot) , so its just a bit of additional strength .

A bit of a breakdown in communication , cant say were fans of the strut , and it could have been made much prettier , but the 456 is not meant to be pretty so on the basis weve got quite a lot , and we paid in May ! , and we now need some cash for our big move were moving em out .

druid – I bought one of the previous design after seeing that photo. I'm happy I love the bike.

Cynic-al

For me, seeing any bike brake at a weld that is only three months old would give me cause to consider whether or not to buy one. Going back to my original question, I'm still undecided as to whether this style of design is one that is potentially weaker than others used. I'm not saying that anyone should not buy On one nor any other brand for that matter on the basis of one broken frame, only that it would make me think twice. I guess that is just human nature! 😀

Ultimately, all bikes will break at some point. My trusty 5 Spot snapped clean through at the weld on the seat tube after 5 years of very extensive use while the aluminium headset insert in my Hummer decided to part company from the frame a few weeks ago much to my surprise! It doesn't mean they are necessarily badly made or designed nor that all Turners and Coves should be consigned to the scrap heap.

Being Scottish, I could have had two 456s for the price of my old Hummer. 😉

Cheers

Sanny

PS Fair play to Dave at Planet X for coming on with info about the new strut. There's a lot to be said for dealing with a UK business that clearly cares about its customers and it's public perception.

but the 456 is not meant to be pretty

I think the dropouts on the dialled bikes are a good design. Sort of a cross between the two. Loads of weld area for the stays but they are also pretty big and plate like. He doesnt use a brace for the disc brakes either.

Does anyone know where the TI Commencals have been made? I've been offered a new 2008 flame for an irresistible price...

"anyone know where the TI Commencals have been made?"

yes - and i'd trust them when it comes to ti. not seen one come back at madison.

The simple reason we (Charge Bikes) use plate dropouts on the Titanium frames is not because of cost, but because it is a neater and more supportive solution for the rear disk mount. If the disk mount is a part of the dropout, as it is on our plate dropouts, less stress is placed on the rear chainstay under braking. It does away with the need for messy brake bridges and we have yet to have a failure at this point on a Duster Ti, Blender Ti (4X frame) and Iron ti (Dirt Jump frame). Put simply it works.

Cheers

Nick