Three times more cyclists die on the UK roads compared to Europe

The article mentions that a fair chunk of money has been thrown at York to "boost bike travel". I'd be interested to know how the money was spent but would guess that some was on educating cyclists at a young age.

When I was in York earlier this year, picking up my new bike from Halfrauds, I was amazed, A) by the number of bikes on the roads, and B) by the fact that even the BMX kids with their trousers hanging round their thighs all wore fluo bibs and had LIGHTS!!

In Sunderland (my nearest city) kids would be laughed off the skate park for either of these fashion offences. So I think that education of young riders is a key issue – making lights 'acceptable', if not cool is a very good idea.

It only took ten minutes of driving round York at dusk to get into a whole new mindset – no point in overtaking the cyclists as they'll be passing you at the lights 30 seconds later…..

Some of the posts here make it sound as if all cyclists are suicidal ninjas intent on throwing themselves under car wheels.

I don't know how many of those posters cycle on the roads regularly, but I'm sure if they did they would know that in the main it is drivers of motor vehicles, not cyclists, who behave irresponsibly, dangerously, and arrogantly. All with upwards of one tonne of metal and rubber, perfect tools for mowing down peds and bikers.

Living where I do (in Derbyshire) I maybe one cyclist a day riding badly or dressed as a ninja, or doing something crazy like jumping red lights across the traffic. Whereas about 50% of drivers* are happy to overtake me by going onto the right hand side of the road, on a narrow, completely blind corner, on a busy 50 limit A road (obviously there are double lines and I'm going faster than 12mph, so it is an illegal overtake too). Unless I ride right in the gutter in the hope that they won't kill themselves when overtaking, in which case about 80% of drivers would happily drive 1 inch from my bars and then turn in towards me when they are half way past me.

From what I see on my commute, I'd say 20%-30% of cyclists are crazy suicidal lunatics who don't care about their own health. Whereas at least 50% of drivers are crazy murderous lunatics who don't care about the health of people on bikes.

Joe

*I actually kept a rough count to come up with that number

I think the problem lies on both sides, cyclists and motorists.
If we all accept we are responsible for our own safety (as cyclists) then we are less likely to put ourselves in jeopardy by cycling like morons with no lights. Motorists should aslo display a more patient attitude to cyclists and not try and force through spaces occupied by cyclists.
Only by changing attitudes on both sides can things improve.

I always find it strange how anti bike and pro car some people on this site are. Don't blame the victim FFS

Cars and Lorries kill cyclists!

To reduce cycling deaths and injuries needs a few different strands – but cycling education is only one of them. Dutch cyclists don't wear helmets and fleuro bibs FFS and their weather is as bad as ours if not worse.

Roads need to be designed and signed to take account of the needs of all users – not just the powered ones. I am absolutely certain that if roads were better designed for cyclist then cyclists would obey the rules more. Obeying the rules can and does make life more dangerous for cyclists in some circumstances

Alteration to the rules of the road to give cycles priority.

Make the liability for accidents rest with the powered user until proven otherwise.

Education and enforcement of rules for cyclists

Education for car drivers

Until you have ridden in the low countries you have no idea how good it can be – and they are more crowded and have old cities with narrow roads and congestion as well

used to work 1 week in 4 in Netherlands and was impressed by mums with little ones and kids all cycling to school together

junior school sent home new copy of school rules yesterday – checked and it still says "no cycles are allowed in school"

it is all about attitude – drove this morning to pick up some building stuff and as sat in queue watched two cyclists ride a section of shared pavement that has lots of blind openings on to it, i never ride it and Mrs antigee said after 2 days of it gave up – the dual carriageway has 25ft width of topiary separating the carriageways but there is no room for a proper cycle facility

the uk is hilly and space is at a premium – seems a pity vehicles get more than the fair share of space and spend

I'd caution against holding up Europe as some sort of ideal- of the five minor but potentially fatal( my spidersense was on top form) incidents Ive had in the last 20 years, four were with drivers from so-called cycling friendly countries. Thats some ratio!
I'd welcome more education( carrot) with much tougher enforcement and presumed liability (stick), but that would have to include naughty cyclists being sent for re-education or worse too.

I think one of the problems is there are many different people riding bikes, and quite alot of them aren't what I would call cyclists (bear with me). I saw a clip on the breakfast news this morning and to be honest it didn't show cyclists in a very good light. But then if you looked at the individuals they had filmed I wouldn't say they were your average cyclist, they were more like people who happened to be on a bike.

I think there are a lot of moronic car drivers out there, I also think there are a lot of people out there who own bikes, ride them occaisionally and haven't got the foggiest what they're doing. I think a lot of their antics tar more regularly cyclists. On my way to work (yes in the car, I do ride occaisional but it's 17 miles each way with some big hills), I see quite a few 'proper' commuting cyclists. Helmet, lights, often hi-vis. I haven't yet seen one of them jump lights, weave across the road or generally behave like idiots. I also often see kids out on bikes, now they often do weave all over the place, one minute on the pavement, the next on the road etc. When the press talk about cyclists they mean anyone on a bike and that incorporates a huge disparity of riders.

I always find it strange how anti bike and pro car some people on this site are

Me too. Part time cyclists, full time motorists.

Similar article from the Guardian….

Cycling road accident admissions to hospital

Different study, same conclusions…

Funny how "Die" becomes "injured" in the article. Ah the death of the "Subbie."
It's hardly apples for apples is it? The report is based on hospital admissions so takes in children, who don't drive cars, off roaders, BMXers (love to see a soft roader in a 1/2 pipe) down hillers and all sorts of bike based activities that don't come anywhere near the road. I realise petrol heads have their away from road habits as well but the inference of the hacks is, get your fat arse in your car, gridlock the world and then nothing more dangerous than obesity will occur and then it will be the governments fault for not building enough roads. (Afternoon rant over, hmm bloodsugar!)

Yes I do cycle on roads in (this time of year) dark rush hour traffic regularly and I have to deal with piss poor driving every time, I also drive the same route and have had to avoid several near invisible, light jumping cyclists apparently intent on dying. As I said before, it cut’s both ways…

Granted drivers probably have a higher proportion of the “statistical blame” even when you take into account they outnumber cyclists 100-1, but to act like cyclists are above reproach is just plain wrong, if you use the road weather your vehicle weighs 2000Kg or 10 you have a share in the responsibility for road safety (your own and others) and preventing accidents, irrespective of how much damage you can potentially cause.
Or is responsibility inversely proportionate to vehicle mass?

I’m certainly not “Anti-bike”, but cyclists using the road are effectively the largest un-regulated barely policed group of road users and I don’t think you can claim we are all in total compliance with the law at all times, let alone the spirit in many cases. It’s a privileged position to be in really, and every accident caused by irresponsible, poorly equipped cyclists jeopardises it and brings us closer to the ridiculous Clarksonite concept of Bicycle MOTs, not something I ever want to see!

If you want “Stupid Drivers” held to better account and more vigorously bollocked (which is fair to ask for) then I think cyclists also need to be prepared to accept more enforcement of the rules as they apply to them, perhaps harsh but as a group it should be of net benefit….

Both groups need freely available training and information, remove the excuses and stiffen the punishments and both cyclists and drivers lives should improve…

Donk – Premier Member

I always find it strange how anti bike and pro car some people on this site are
Me too. Part time cyclists, full time motorists.

I see the; "If you're not with us you're against us!" argument eh?

Is life fun in black and white?

You are anti-bike cookea and it's clear in your reasoning and false assumptions. You have taken on board the worst Daily Mail anti-bike rants.

The whole point of this thread is that British cyclists are more at risk than their european neighbours, even in countries where there are no more dedicated cycle paths and the cyclists are less disciplined than in the UK. The UK problem is the British motorist and has nothing to do with poor cycling standards.

Cookea, any greater enforcement of rules for cyclists only serves to diminish the likelihood of more people cycling. More cyclists makes us safer.

The bicycle is the ultimate symbol and expression of freedom. That may sound poncey or whatever, but I firmly believe that helmet laws, reflective gear, lights, are all largely a smokescreen hiding the real problem. I use all of those things to hopefully help me stay alive. But the reason I have to? Motor vehicles. You cannot hide from this reality.

As someone said earlier in the thread, how many cyclists and pedestrians would die or be injured if there were four times as many cyclists, with more infrastructure for us, and fewer motor vehicles?

Take a look at these tearaway cyclists with no helmets, no hi viz clothing and at best dynamo lights Riding 2 or 3 up and even standing on the seat.
http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/

abductee – bicycle culture in full effect: I love it, thankyou.

Looking at it again, this report seems to be scaremongering crap.
It ignores the fact that a high number of admissions were kids, that the summer peak is likely to be purely recreational cyclists( falling off on their trail centre/ cyclepath or skatepark, and extrapolating that any resulting hospital admissions show that it makes cycling 'on the road' more dangerous.
Has this story appeared in the Daily Mail yet?, I bet they could do a 'sexed-up' version.

The reality is that most drivers do care and are careful, and most cyclists do care and are more careful.

There will always be idiots on either side, but we can cut the carnage by making sure that either collisions cannot occur, or if they do, then at a low speed. That comes down to bike lanes, and lower speed limits on shared roads.

I agree epicyclo but also think UK legislation needs changing in favour of weaker road users. The 1m law, cyclists have priority when pulling out (like buses) and various other laws specifically to protect cyclists have definitely improved the way way other road users treat cyclists (and pedestrians) in France. The laws need to be well publicised of course but once they have been the vast majority of people do respect the new rules.

I don't believe "most drivers do care and are careful"

Most are completely unaware of cycles. Some positively go out of their way to harass cycles, some are considerate.

The number of fools in cars who overtake just before traffic lights, who pull in too close, who stop in ASLs. who pass to close etc etc. None of this gets them where they are going any faster it just makes things more dangerous for cyclists.

Edukator, I'm with you 100% on that.

I think in this country we get too obsessed with allocating blame rather than removing the problem.

TJ +1

It seems to me that saying most car drivers care and are considerate actually flies in the face of most cyclists' experiences.

Dr Death you have enough trouble staying on the bike off road without worrying about this too!

epicyclo, the 'problem', as government/ police and planners would have it is 'silly cyclists inconsiderately getting in the way of more important traffic'.
The solution as I'm sure they've decided, is getting 'the problem 'off the road and onto stupid out of sight, out of mind cyclelanes.
Thats why we should all fight like **** to avoid them.
As for most drivers, Im quite sure that very few leave the house intending to knock a cyclist or biker off ( probably less than 2% are like that! ) but I have no doubt that if there was a referendum tomorrow on 'banning cyclists, for their own safety, from the road' about 99% would go for it.

You are anti-bike cookea and it's clear in your reasoning and false assumptions. You have taken on board the worst Daily Mail anti-bike rants.

The whole point of this thread is that British cyclists are more at risk than their european neighbours, even in countries where there are no more dedicated cycle paths and the cyclists are less disciplined than in the UK. The UK problem is the British motorist and has nothing to do with poor cycling standards.

More Absolutist politics then?

So I can't possibly be a cyclist and yet see some problems with cyclists as a group? (or at least a minority) I am by default a Mail reading, right wing, "hang em all type" simply because I believe cyclists aren't made up entirely of sainted, flawless individuals, so be it, I base my assertions on personal experiences, both in and out of the tin box…

I think it's fair to say my point will still fall on deaf ears here though, so maybe lets leave it where it stands and agree to disagree…

I am with cookeaa on this one. We have to consider two thign here. Do we want to absolutely ban cars from the road, or do we want to be able as group (cyclist) to share the road.
Thinking we will get rid of the car is:
being very hopefull (uptopist?) at the best
very stupid at the most.
As much as I enjoy riding my bike on the road ( so very little lets face it) I do ackowledge that 'road' as we know it now is build and design for car. I don't buy the argument it's meant for all. If you do I stongly advise you have a look at the price of the tarmac. Now if you tell me there is a problem in terms of traffic management I do give you that. If you tell me that cycling is part of the solution, you may be right too. However you can't expect cars and other petrol powered vehicle to give everything away. So I think that being a considerate cyclist and wearing helmet/lights/high viz will help indeed. Riding on the side off the road when it is safe to do so you make it easier for car to overtake will help too (yes this one is for you, clys rider with your pink lycra on your carbon exotica bike taking all the road) I try to do it, then when it is not safe to do so I do take my place in the middle of the road. It does all come to education, yes, but it goes both ways. The potential damage you can cause is irrespective. There is some laws, sitck with it. Specialy in town. If you want respect, well you have to show respect.

Juan, who is saying anything about banning cars from the road?
As I've said before, roads in this country come under the legal definition of 'Public Highway'; there to be used by all. The only road that is specifically for motor transport is M-class motorway, and a few individual stretches of A road.
I dont like to be negative about another member, but you seem to me to be woefully ignorant of the status, and needs of road cyclists. Perhaps you should do some yourself?

trail_rat – Member

zaskar – ive had mates be hit and had through no fault of own and had payouts cut due to not meeting bs standards for reflectors and stuff like that.

i ride defensively but im still of the opinion that no matter what i do its going to happen one day …. I ride a 150-200 in the city per week to work and shops and the pub etc.

Just learned that buses round here have extenal emergancy stop buttons on all corners and in the middle of the bus – locations have been noted and next mother **** to try and squash me will come to a stop …….note im riding in the shared cycle lane….they overtake/come along side me then move in on me to stop at the bus stop ….. Generally they only go halfway past me – i think ill be well within my rights if they have come close enough that i can press the middle button ….. Atm i have to ramp on the brakes and go from 20 mph no nothing in seconds before im squashed .

I agree with you. But the button should activate the brakes so the driver still has power to steer for safety.

Well in an emergency it would be useful and also at junction if a bus driver is squashing you off the road then sure hit the button!

What we need is an invention to make cars more aware.

I know this sounds silly but when driving home the other day I thought yes I can see some cyclist's lights etc but wouldn't it be good if teh cyclists had some sort of lights that lit them up too so they stood out more?

Like a handle bar light aimed at themselves from the front and rear?

I use 3 rear lights and 2 front lights and luminous jackets. Somebody will still fail to see me as we make mistakes.

Awareness campaigns do work and CTC need to push more-like tv adverts (need money though).

Maybe a device that activates vehicles parking sensors to beep? (annoying the driver though!)

Do not go hitting buttons on the buses you might actually hurt someone on the bus.

The article basically points to 1/3 of the accidents involve other vehicles the rest are cyclists crashing on there own. So its not the car or bus thats problem its that cyclists in teh UK can't ride bikes.

O and someone mentioned just how good french drievrs are, don't make me laugh. this weekend I was sat in a pub in paris near the arc. over the epriod of 2 hours I saw 10 car crahses and two cyclists hit. Not one of them gave a crap, they just shouted at one another and carried on.

Méfiez-vous des chiffres ronds.

So you saw exactly 10 crashes, not 7,8, 9, 11 or 12. You saw more crashes in Paris in two hours in Paris than I've ever seen there. I wonder what the odds against that are.

but you seem to me to be woefully ignorant of the status, and needs of road cyclists. Perhaps you should do some yourself?

Well saddly I have too to go to work. And re-read me again I said the road as we know it (you know this black stuff called tarmac) are meant for cars, otherwise it would be just fireroads.

I think you'll find your local cycle paths are tarmaced Juan. Mine are.