[Closed] Three times more cyclists die on the UK roads compared to Europe

What a stupid article, to compare the UK with (probably) the 2 countries where cycling is the most popular - and for anyone who's not been to NL and DK, the 2 flatest countries...

The Dutch and the Danish have since, I guess before the war, built their entire road network around cycling (and scooters) - and there is no way that we will get near that, full-stop.

And we also know that in a accident the smallest 'vehicle' usually comes off worst, which is why you never see articles such as "drivers dies in accident with man"!

I think one of the biggest issues i see is ****ers dont have lights on and still think its fine to weave in and out of moving traffic. Some folk are also using woefully inadaqiate lights with flat batterys etc so might as well have non - yet i bet if they get hit they will be chasing insurance money from car drivers.....boils my piss......

Naturals selection at work.

I don't see what's stupid about comparing cycling road safety in this country, to countries where it is far safer to cycle.

Gives the government something to aim for perhaps? Or should we compare it to places where it's worse so we can be proud of how safe our roads are to cycle on?

When I lived in Germany it was a real pleasure to cycle on the roads - there was much better provision of paths for cyclists and the driver's seem to accept that you are a legitimate road user and not some eco-oik who is stopping him/her getting home to watch I'm a celebrity....

I'd love it if the government looked seriously into what countries like Germnay, Holland & Denmark are doing with regards to cycling.

I was just reading this and its based purely on hospital admissions which seems fine, but then goes on to say 66% of adult cases and 80% child cases don't involve a collision with a vehicle.

Could it be that Mountain Bikers have massively distorted this figure?!

Yep the amount of roadies I see not wearing helmets on the road is really silly.
Especially as most of the guys not wearing them are older guys.!
As you well know a cloth cap offers more protection than a helmet. That and riding like tw*ts in traffic..

The difference is the way cyclist ride in the UK comared to Europe.

In Europe they understand they are on a road and there's danger all around so ride accordingly.
In the UK cyclist seem to think it's acceptable to wear their ipod, weave in and out of traffic and ride as fast as possible everywhere.
If cars drove as erratically as commuters ride they'd be pulled for for dangerous driving.

blingbling has missed out that on the continent pro-cyclists are hailed as heros and gods and cycling is a major sport in france, italy, spain, holland.... and so awarness of bikes is so much greater.

I have ridden all over Europe and the only place I have had accidents on the road is in England and at the drivers fault (promise).

Lights, good contrast clothes and helmets are key! but also a much bigger awarness campaign for cyclists as well as motorcyclists.

It's a critical mass thing. More cyclists would force car drivers to alter their behaviour.

We have relatively few "utility" riders in the UK. Why? Look out the window.

berevementmonkey, I live in Belgium you clart so I think I should understand how cyclists are treated here more than most 😉

I also think your statement of cyclists being hailed as gods on the continant is a just a litte bit naive.
Pros maybe, but normal raod warriors? No chance.
So its not really relevant is it.

If cars drove as erratically as commuters ride they'd be pulled for for dangerous driving.

I see just as much dangerous driving as bad cycling. I think the main problem here is crowded roads and a bad attitude to cycling generally - as said they are seen as a nuisance. Cycle paths reflect that too with the way they are constantly stopping or losing priority.

Simon - nail head. Colleagues in large office with great cycling facilitys look at me like i have 5 heads when i suggest cycling the 3 miles to work from their house to avoid the traffic they complain about making them take an hour..... I give my self 45 miles to ride 8 miles and i am always early enough to have a cup of joe and a read of the paper before i start.

[i]Yep the amount of roadies I see not wearing helmets on the road is really silly.
Especially as most of the guys not wearing them are older guys.!
As you well know a cloth cap offers more protection than a helmet.[/i]

Old roadies.... So people who've been riding for a long time then?
People who appear to managing perfectly well and staying out of the cycling death statistics then?

Talk about missing the point.

People in the UK don't die on bikes because of a lack of helmets, they die because they get hit by cars.

Note as well that in the countries quoted above, far fewer people wear helmets, yet not as many people die.

It's about the cars, the attitude of drivers rather than what the cyclists wear.

blingbling has missed out that on the continent pro-cyclists are hailed as heros and gods and cycling is a major sport in france, italy, spain, holland.... and so awarness of bikes is so much greater.

Colleagues in large office with great cycling facilitys look at me like i have 5 heads when i suggest cycling the 3 miles to work from their house to avoid the traffic they complain about making them take an hour.....

Yup.

[img] [/img]

No it's not.

I dunno when I was in France I was amazed by the patience and general good attitude of drivers towards cyclists over there.

It's about the cars, the attitude of drivers

Yeah it's nothing to do with the cyclists or the way they ride 😉

Regardless of whose right of way it is, if I think a car is going to cut across me or ty and squash me I slow down to make sure I'm able to stop if it does try it on.
I have no desire to be lying in the road like Gordon Brittas shouting "but it was my right of way!"

I'd rather be alive thanks.

I think rather too often people miss the bull rampaging in the china shop: the motor vehicle. Campaigning for cyclists to cycle in a safer way is like campaigning for women to wear burkas so they don't get raped.

The problem is the motor vehicle.

Until we design our infrastructure to support pedestrians and cyclists, until we really pressurise drivers to get out of their cars, and until we expand both goods and people railway networks, we will continue to see much higher cyclist and pedestrian death rates in this country.

The problem is the [b]motor vehicle[/b].

The problem is the motor vehicle.

Exactly - how many cyclist deaths would there be if you took away the cars? 😉

I think rather too often people miss the bull rampaging in the china shop: the motor vehicle.

I think you'll find it's the bull rampaging in his own field.

It's your choice to ride your bike in his field.

The article says that only a third of the cases (injured enough to go to hospital) involved a collision with another vehicle. It seems most British cyclists are quite capable of hospitalising themselves without getting anyone else involved 😀

ps. I love the cherry-picking of stats and the completely inaccurate headline - British cyclists are three times more likely to die [b]or have an accident that puts them in hospital[/b] than our counterparts. I wonder what proportion of accidents elsewhere involve another vehicle?

bling bling... I have lived in Spain and France and cycled across other areas of europe over the 'few' years I have been a cyclist. So I also know :wink:.

I suppose a lot comes down to the individual rider... If a cyclist rides badly (but thinks they are riding well 'juan') then they will blame someone else!

Maybe I have been lucky on the continent!

Agreed with bling that would rather be upright on my bike than arguing with the large bit of motorised metal trying to get across me.

No BlingBling, the roads aren't their fields. If these bulls, to perhaps carry the analogy too far, were also destroying the fields, the hedges and trees in them, killing the people using the footpath around the field AND burning the sky with their farts, do you think we might make an effort to stop them, turn the bulls into frogs or something?

Yes, reading that over I definitely took the analogy too far!

Time for the straight jacket

bling bling... I have lived in Spain and France and cycled across other areas of europe over the 'few' years I have been a cyclist. So I also know :wink:.

I suppose a lot comes down to the individual rider... If a cyclist rides badly (but thinks they are riding well 'juan') then they will blame someone else!

Lights, good contrast clothes and helmets are key! but also a much bigger awarness campaign for cyclists as well as motorcyclists.

That is a Key point!

Cycle safety on UK roads comes down to ALL road users not just Drivers, if as a cyclist you don’t want to get hit, then make the effort to make yourself visible and be aware of your surroundings and the dangers present on the road…

The earlier post which said we will never have road layouts as cycle friendly as the rest of Europe was correct, but accident figures could well be reduced by the government throwing the sort of funding at cycle safety awareness that they do at Motorcycle and Car safety campaigns…

Heading off to work if it doesn't rain!

Only 4 miles and quicker/satisfying by Bike! Soem dangerous areas too.

You can wear all the safty gear you want but it won't stop a car hitting you.

(I always wear my lid-for what its worth!)

Thinking about it, I'd be really interested in how those KSI stats break down if only a third involved another vehicle - I'm guessing mountain bike injuries are included in that but where on earth do the rest come from?

cookeaa - sometimes you can be lit up like a Xmas tree and it won't make the blindest bit of difference.

A friend of mine who I pass everyday on our respective commutes (me in my tin box and him on his bike) wears a bright fluo yellow jacket and uses a very bright front light and a couple of very bright rear lights. They aren't 'off road' lights, but proper approved road ones, with side visibility bits and all that.

Yeasterday I got a roundabout coming out of our town and there was someone lying on the floor being seen to by a group people. There was a car parked across the roundabout and someone else directing traffic.
As I got closer I realised it was my mate who i see everyday. He'd been hit by a car that hadn't seen him on the roundabout - his bike was totally mangled and he was looking very still with blood all over his face.
I pulled up sharpish and went to see what was going on, then waited until the ambulance turned up before carrying on my way to work.

Turns out that he had entered the roundabout, and a woman arrived at the roundabout while he was on it, hadn't seen him and ploughed into him. Luckily he was thrown clear, as she hit his bike & not him and she then dragged his bike underneath her car until she came to a stop.

He's been riding for years and years, competes in many competitions and has a great deal of experience riding on the road. I don't know what more he could reasonably have done to make himself more visible to this woman, but she still didn't see him and drove into him.
But, I would rather be lit up than not and I would rather take a cautious approach to other road-users as well. There definitely needs to be more education for drivers and efforts to improve their awareness of cylcists (and motorcyclists) on the road.

zaskar - ive had mates be hit and had through no fault of own and had payouts cut due to not meeting bs standards for reflectors and stuff like that.

i ride defensively but im still of the opinion that no matter what i do its going to happen one day .... I ride a 150-200 in the city per week to work and shops and the pub etc.

Just learned that buses round here have extenal emergancy stop buttons on all corners and in the middle of the bus - locations have been noted and next mother ****er to try and squash me will come to a stop 🙂 .......note im riding in the shared cycle lane....they overtake/come along side me then move in on me to stop at the bus stop ..... Generally they only go halfway past me - i think ill be well within my rights if they have come close enough that i can press the middle button ..... Atm i have to ramp on the brakes and go from 20 mph no nothing in seconds before im squashed .

I'm guessing mountain bike injuries are included in that but where on earth do the rest come from?

People learning on spuds.
People hitting potholes (and christ there's enough on UK roads)
People cornering too hard in the wet.
People avoiding animals.
the list goes on!

and had through no fault of own and had payouts cut due to not meeting bs standards for reflectors and stuff like that

This seems like a very odd thing to say.

Just learned that buses round here have extenal emergancy stop buttons on all corners and in the middle of the bus - locations have been noted and next mother **** to try and squash me will come to a stop

Again, while I can empathise with the situation, hitting the emergency stop just kills the engine, not the bus - all you'll do is make the driver lose control unless they're already stopped.

Why ? All i was stating is that having all the correct safety equipment while may not stop injury or being hit, it will have relevence to your compensation (presuming survival)

Eg about 6 months before leds became legit by law a guy i know was rear ended - despite having three rear lights none met the relevent bs standard at the time - imo they exceeded it )

Oh and coffeeking i didnt know if that would be the case or not. shoutiing at them through windows doesnt seem to work ! Local taxi drivers are getting better towards me - spoke to one at a red light the other day who said he was glad to see a cyclist taking visibility seriously.

As i said above no lights in the dark seems to be the norm rather than exception up here

a woman arrived

I would never have guessed 😉

You can wear all the safty gear you want but it won't stop a car hitting you.

Following that logic then am I just as safe dresses in black on a lightless bike?

Speaking as both a motorist and a cyclist; making yourself more visible does make a difference to your safety if a driver can definitely see you they have one less excuse for mowing you down…

As pointed out in another thread yesterday the legal requirements for cycle visibility are actually quite weak, being low level reflectors and a single bike mounted red light, which in close traffic could well be bellow the viewing eye line of many motorists (think of all those 4’8” Women in Range Rovers) I would personally like to see legal compulsion for cyclists to have either reflective material and/or a light mounted on their back/Rucksack or back of their head…
The cost is negligible (£2 for a cheap LED) but having something mounted higher up on the rider as well as the bike to make them more visible to someone sat in a car makes a lot of difference, some cycle commuters are almost bloody invisible to be honest…

I never go out without at least 1 LED mounted on the rear of my helmet and 1 on the bike especially this time of year when there is barely any daylight….

Yes you can blame Clarkson and Co’ and they don’t help Drivers attitudes with their various anti cycling comments, but quite frankly it’s a 2 way argument and you can’t deny that there are just as many arseholes on bikes as there are in cars…

Edit:

stumpy01 sorry to hear about your mate, hope he's OK, sounds like he was trying to make himself visible, I'm not saying these sort of incidents won't happen, just that their occurences could be vastly reduced if more cyclists made the effort to be seen by drivers, obviously once you're "lit up like an Xmas tree" you pretty much knacker "I didn't see you" excuse that drivers like the one in your friends incident met might produce, and it becomes quite clear who is and isn't paying attention...

This all ignore the heatlth benefits too.

On average, cyclists live longer.

you can’t deny that there are just as many arseholes on bikes as there are in cars…

That's the thing - on a bike you are not in charge of a ton or so of metal and glass.

So Donk you're saying the decission to ride sensibly and make yourself visible to other road users centres on self worth and the likelyhood of causing Death/injury to others?
And as a cyclist your actions essentially have next to bugger all consequences outside of your own mortality?

You do realise when you swerve without lights infront of a driver (who probably did not mean you any harm, and could well have been driving with due care and attention) that you've essentially knackered their day too, probably caused untold heartache for your own loved ones, all for the sake of a few quid on lights and an extra 10 seconds to check your over your shoulder and wait to turn, sounds pretty selfish to me...

You do realise when you swerve without lights infront of a driver (who probably did not mean you any harm, and could well have been driving with due care and attention) that you've essentially knackered their day too, probably caused untold heartache for your own loved ones, all for the sake of a few quid on lights and an extra 10 seconds to check your over your shoulder and wait to turn, sounds pretty selfish to me...

Yeah Donk you heartless bastard!!!!!!! 😛

Yeah Donk you heartless bastard!

Oh and the example you mentioned cookeaa is on the hazhard perceptions part of the new driving test so due care and attention would involve looking for such things - fat chance! Not defending the cyclists actions tho (but it's hardly intended suicide is it?).

The article mentions that a fair chunk of money has been thrown at York to "boost bike travel". I'd be interested to know how the money was spent but would guess that some was on educating cyclists at a young age.

When I was in York earlier this year, picking up my new bike from Halfrauds, I was amazed, A) by the number of bikes on the roads, and B) by the fact that even the BMX kids with their trousers hanging round their thighs all wore fluo bibs and had LIGHTS!!

In Sunderland (my nearest city) kids would be laughed off the skate park for either of these fashion offences. So I think that education of young riders is a key issue - making lights 'acceptable', if not cool is a very good idea.

It only took ten minutes of driving round York at dusk to get into a whole new mindset - no point in overtaking the cyclists as they'll be passing you at the lights 30 seconds later.....

Some of the posts here make it sound as if all cyclists are suicidal ninjas intent on throwing themselves under car wheels.

I don't know how many of those posters cycle on the roads regularly, but I'm sure if they did they would know that in the main it is drivers of motor vehicles, not cyclists, who behave irresponsibly, dangerously, and arrogantly. All with upwards of one tonne of metal and rubber, perfect tools for mowing down peds and bikers.

Living where I do (in Derbyshire) I maybe one cyclist a day riding badly or dressed as a ninja, or doing something crazy like jumping red lights across the traffic. Whereas about 50% of drivers* are happy to overtake me by going onto the right hand side of the road, on a narrow, completely blind corner, on a busy 50 limit A road (obviously there are double lines and I'm going faster than 12mph, so it is an illegal overtake too). Unless I ride right in the gutter in the hope that they won't kill themselves when overtaking, in which case about 80% of drivers would happily drive 1 inch from my bars and then turn in towards me when they are half way past me.

From what I see on my commute, I'd say 20%-30% of cyclists are crazy suicidal lunatics who don't care about their own health. Whereas at least 50% of drivers are crazy murderous lunatics who don't care about the health of people on bikes.

Joe

*I actually kept a rough count to come up with that number

I think the problem lies on both sides, cyclists and motorists.
If we all accept we are responsible for our own safety (as cyclists) then we are less likely to put ourselves in jeopardy by cycling like morons with no lights. Motorists should aslo display a more patient attitude to cyclists and not try and force through spaces occupied by cyclists.
Only by changing attitudes on both sides can things improve.

I always find it strange how anti bike and pro car some people on this site are. Don't blame the victim FFS

Cars and Lorries kill cyclists!

To reduce cycling deaths and injuries needs a few different strands - but cycling education is only one of them. Dutch cyclists don't wear helmets and fleuro bibs FFS and their weather is as bad as ours if not worse.

Roads need to be designed and signed to take account of the needs of all users - not just the powered ones. I am absolutely certain that if roads were better designed for cyclist then cyclists would obey the rules more. Obeying the rules can and does make life more dangerous for cyclists in some circumstances

Alteration to the rules of the road to give cycles priority.

Make the liability for accidents rest with the powered user until proven otherwise.

Education and enforcement of rules for cyclists

Education for car drivers

Until you have ridden in the low countries you have no idea how good it can be - and they are more crowded and have old cities with narrow roads and congestion as well

used to work 1 week in 4 in Netherlands and was impressed by mums with little ones and kids all cycling to school together

junior school sent home new copy of school rules yesterday - checked and it still says "no cycles are allowed in school"

it is all about attitude - drove this morning to pick up some building stuff and as sat in queue watched two cyclists ride a section of shared pavement that has lots of blind openings on to it, i never ride it and Mrs antigee said after 2 days of it gave up - the dual carriageway has 25ft width of topiary separating the carriageways but there is no room for a proper cycle facility

the uk is hilly and space is at a premium - seems a pity vehicles get more than the fair share of space and spend

I'd caution against holding up Europe as some sort of ideal- of the five minor but potentially fatal( my spidersense was on top form) incidents Ive had in the last 20 years, four were with drivers from so-called cycling friendly countries. Thats some ratio!
I'd welcome more education( carrot) with much tougher enforcement and presumed liability (stick), but that would have to include naughty cyclists being sent for re-education or worse too.

I think one of the problems is there are many different people riding bikes, and quite alot of them aren't what I would call cyclists (bear with me). I saw a clip on the breakfast news this morning and to be honest it didn't show cyclists in a very good light. But then if you looked at the individuals they had filmed I wouldn't say they were your average cyclist, they were more like people who happened to be on a bike.

I think there are a lot of moronic car drivers out there, I also think there are a lot of people out there who own bikes, ride them occaisionally and haven't got the foggiest what they're doing. I think a lot of their antics tar more regularly cyclists. On my way to work (yes in the car, I do ride occaisional but it's 17 miles each way with some big hills), I see quite a few 'proper' commuting cyclists. Helmet, lights, often hi-vis. I haven't yet seen one of them jump lights, weave across the road or generally behave like idiots. I also often see kids out on bikes, now they often do weave all over the place, one minute on the pavement, the next on the road etc. When the press talk about cyclists they mean anyone on a bike and that incorporates a huge disparity of riders.

I always find it strange how anti bike and pro car some people on this site are

Similar article from the Guardian....

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/03/cycling-roads-accidents-hospital-admissions ]Cycling road accident admissions to hospital[/url]

Different study, same conclusions...

Funny how "Die" becomes "injured" in the article. Ah the death of the "Subbie."
It's hardly apples for apples is it? The report is based on hospital admissions so takes in children, who don't drive cars, off roaders, BMXers (love to see a soft roader in a 1/2 pipe) down hillers and all sorts of bike based activities that don't come anywhere near the road. I realise petrol heads have their away from road habits as well but the inference of the hacks is, get your fat arse in your car, gridlock the world and then nothing more dangerous than obesity will occur and then it will be the governments fault for not building enough roads. (Afternoon rant over, hmm bloodsugar!)

Yes I do cycle on roads in (this time of year) dark rush hour traffic regularly and I have to deal with piss poor driving every time, I also drive the same route and have had to avoid several near invisible, light jumping cyclists apparently intent on dying. As I said before, it cut’s both ways…

Granted drivers probably have a higher proportion of the “statistical blame” even when you take into account they outnumber cyclists 100-1, but to act like cyclists are above reproach is just plain wrong, if you use the road weather your vehicle weighs 2000Kg or 10 you have a share in the responsibility for road safety (your own and others) and preventing accidents, irrespective of how much damage you can potentially cause.
Or is responsibility inversely proportionate to vehicle mass?

I’m certainly not “Anti-bike”, but cyclists using the road are effectively the largest un-regulated barely policed group of road users and I don’t think you can claim we are all in total compliance with the law at all times, let alone the spirit in many cases. It’s a privileged position to be in really, and every accident caused by irresponsible, poorly equipped cyclists jeopardises it and brings us closer to the ridiculous Clarksonite concept of Bicycle MOTs, not something I ever want to see!

If you want “Stupid Drivers” held to better account and more vigorously bollocked (which is fair to ask for) then I think cyclists also need to be prepared to accept more enforcement of the rules as they apply to them, perhaps harsh but as a group it should be of net benefit….

Both groups need freely available training and information, remove the excuses and stiffen the punishments and both cyclists and drivers lives should improve…

Donk - Premier Member

I always find it strange how anti bike and pro car some people on this site are
Me too. Part time cyclists, full time motorists.

I see the; [i]"If you're not with us you're against us!"[/i] argument eh?

Is life fun in black and white?

You are anti-bike cookea and it's clear in your reasoning and false assumptions. You have taken on board the worst Daily Mail anti-bike rants.

The whole point of this thread is that British cyclists are more at risk than their european neighbours, even in countries where there are no more dedicated cycle paths and the cyclists are less disciplined than in the UK. The UK problem is the British motorist and has nothing to do with poor cycling standards.

Cookea, any greater enforcement of rules for cyclists only serves to diminish the likelihood of more people cycling. More cyclists makes us safer.

The bicycle is the ultimate symbol and expression of freedom. That may sound poncey or whatever, but I firmly believe that helmet laws, reflective gear, lights, are all largely a smokescreen hiding the real problem. I use all of those things to hopefully help me stay alive. But the reason I have to? [b]Motor vehicles[/b]. You cannot hide from this reality.

As someone said earlier in the thread, how many cyclists and pedestrians would die or be injured if there were four times as many cyclists, with more infrastructure for us, and fewer motor vehicles?

Take a look at these tearaway cyclists with no helmets, no hi viz clothing and at best dynamo lights Riding 2 or 3 up and even standing on the seat.
http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/

abductee - bicycle culture in full effect: I love it, thankyou.

Looking at it again, this report seems to be scaremongering crap.
It ignores the fact that a high number of admissions were kids, that the summer peak is likely to be purely recreational cyclists( falling off on their trail centre/ cyclepath or skatepark, and extrapolating that any resulting hospital admissions show that it makes cycling 'on the road' more dangerous.
Has this story appeared in the Daily Mail yet?, I bet they could do a 'sexed-up' version.

The reality is that most drivers do care and are careful, and most cyclists do care and are more careful.

There will always be idiots on either side, but we can cut the carnage by making sure that either collisions cannot occur, or if they do, then at a low speed. That comes down to bike lanes, and lower speed limits on shared roads.

I agree epicyclo but also think UK legislation needs changing in favour of weaker road users. The 1m law, cyclists have priority when pulling out (like buses) and various other laws specifically to protect cyclists have definitely improved the way way other road users treat cyclists (and pedestrians) in France. The laws need to be well publicised of course but once they have been the vast majority of people do respect the new rules.

I don't believe "most drivers do care and are careful"

Most are completely unaware of cycles. Some positively go out of their way to harass cycles, some are considerate.

The number of fools in cars who overtake just before traffic lights, who pull in too close, who stop in ASLs. who pass to close etc etc. None of this gets them where they are going any faster it just makes things more dangerous for cyclists.

Edukator, I'm with you 100% on that.

I think in this country we get too obsessed with allocating blame rather than removing the problem.

TJ +1

It seems to me that saying most car drivers care and are considerate actually flies in the face of most cyclists' experiences.

Dr Death you have enough trouble staying on the bike off road without worrying about this too!

epicyclo, the 'problem', as government/ police and planners would have it is 'silly cyclists inconsiderately getting in the way of more important traffic'.
The solution as I'm sure they've decided, is getting 'the problem 'off the road and onto stupid out of sight, out of mind cyclelanes.
Thats why we should all fight like **** to avoid them.
As for most drivers, Im quite sure that very few leave the house intending to knock a cyclist or biker off ( probably less than 2% are like that! ) but I have no doubt that if there was a referendum tomorrow on 'banning cyclists, for their own safety, from the road' about 99% would go for it.

You are anti-bike cookea and it's clear in your reasoning and false assumptions. You have taken on board the worst Daily Mail anti-bike rants.

The whole point of this thread is that British cyclists are more at risk than their european neighbours, even in countries where there are no more dedicated cycle paths and the cyclists are less disciplined than in the UK. The UK problem is the British motorist and has nothing to do with poor cycling standards.

More Absolutist politics then?

So I can't possibly be a cyclist and yet see some problems with cyclists as a group? (or at least a minority) I am by default a Mail reading, right wing, "hang em all type" simply because I believe cyclists aren't made up entirely of sainted, flawless individuals, so be it, I base my assertions on personal experiences, both in and out of the tin box...

I think it's fair to say my point will still fall on deaf ears here though, so maybe lets leave it where it stands and agree to disagree...

I am with cookeaa on this one. We have to consider two thign here. Do we want to absolutely ban cars from the road, or do we want to be able as group (cyclist) to share the road.
Thinking we will get rid of the car is:
being very hopefull (uptopist?) at the best
very stupid at the most.
As much as I enjoy riding my bike on the road ( so very little lets face it) I do ackowledge that 'road' as we know it now is build and design for car. I don't buy the argument it's meant for all. If you do I stongly advise you have a look at the price of the tarmac. Now if you tell me there is a problem in terms of traffic management I do give you that. If you tell me that cycling is part of the solution, you may be right too. However you can't expect cars and other petrol powered vehicle to give everything away. So I think that being a considerate cyclist and wearing helmet/lights/high viz will help indeed. Riding on the side off the road when it is safe to do so you make it easier for car to overtake will help too (yes this one is for you, clys rider with your pink lycra on your carbon exotica bike taking all the road) I try to do it, then when it is not safe to do so I do take my place in the middle of the road. It does all come to education, yes, but it goes both ways. The potential damage you can cause is irrespective. There is some laws, sitck with it. Specialy in town. If you want respect, well you have to show respect.

Juan, who is saying anything about banning cars from the road?
As I've said before, roads in this country come under the legal definition of 'Public Highway'; there to be used by all. The only road that is specifically for motor transport is M-class motorway, and a few individual stretches of A road.
I dont like to be negative about another member, but you seem to me to be woefully ignorant of the status, and needs of road cyclists. Perhaps you should do some yourself?

trail_rat - Member

zaskar - ive had mates be hit and had through no fault of own and had payouts cut due to not meeting bs standards for reflectors and stuff like that.

i ride defensively but im still of the opinion that no matter what i do its going to happen one day .... I ride a 150-200 in the city per week to work and shops and the pub etc.

Just learned that buses round here have extenal emergancy stop buttons on all corners and in the middle of the bus - locations have been noted and next mother **** to try and squash me will come to a stop .......note im riding in the shared cycle lane....they overtake/come along side me then move in on me to stop at the bus stop ..... Generally they only go halfway past me - i think ill be well within my rights if they have come close enough that i can press the middle button ..... Atm i have to ramp on the brakes and go from 20 mph no nothing in seconds before im squashed .

I agree with you. But the button should activate the brakes so the driver still has power to steer for safety.

Well in an emergency it would be useful and also at junction if a bus driver is squashing you off the road then sure hit the button!

What we need is an invention to make cars more aware.

I know this sounds silly but when driving home the other day I thought yes I can see some cyclist's lights etc but wouldn't it be good if teh cyclists had some sort of lights that lit them up too so they stood out more?

Like a handle bar light aimed at themselves from the front and rear?

I use 3 rear lights and 2 front lights and luminous jackets. Somebody will still fail to see me as we make mistakes.

Awareness campaigns do work and CTC need to push more-like tv adverts (need money though).

Maybe a device that activates vehicles parking sensors to beep? (annoying the driver though!)

Do not go hitting buttons on the buses you might actually hurt someone on the bus.

The article basically points to 1/3 of the accidents involve other vehicles the rest are cyclists crashing on there own. So its not the car or bus thats problem its that cyclists in teh UK can't ride bikes.

O and someone mentioned just how good french drievrs are, don't make me laugh. this weekend I was sat in a pub in paris near the arc. over the epriod of 2 hours I saw 10 car crahses and two cyclists hit. Not one of them gave a crap, they just shouted at one another and carried on.

Méfiez-vous des chiffres ronds.

So you saw exactly 10 crashes, not 7,8, 9, 11 or 12. You saw more crashes in Paris in two hours in Paris than I've ever seen there. I wonder what the odds against that are.

but you seem to me to be woefully ignorant of the status, and needs of road cyclists. Perhaps you should do some yourself?

I think you'll find your local cycle paths are tarmaced Juan. Mine are.