The union

If his leadership collapses in the face of infighting and a right wing fightback, then that will pretty much solidify the SNP’s position in Scotland and independence will just be a matter of time.

Guess the first tester of that theory is the Scottish elections next year.
So in summary for a big supporter of independence, anything is a call for another go and nothing will make you happy until the rest of the pesky inhabitants agree with you?

The support for the SNP at the last election should be read with the fact that they did not put independence on the table and had declared that the issue was settled for a generation (which at the time more people took to be more than 10 minutes) Votes for the SNP in May can not be called votes for independence, some might have been others may not.

Precident nifan, its been set, if the people if Scotland want a ref they’ll get one. Laws and treaties can always be reversed.

Can we not just have a free Yorkshire vote? All these other winging none entities in the country do not deserve our Yorkshire greatness. Once gone we’ll flower as a Yorkshire nation and they’ll ney see are like again. Free Yorkshire and it better be cheap.

Mike no one is calling votes in may, votes for independence or a referendum, do keep up.

Mt, do as you please, I’ll support your democratic rights.

BTW in the gfa it is stipulated that a referendum in northern Ireland cannot be held less than every 7 years. I don’t see why that should not apply to Scotland.

Actually, it might even be a good idea to make referendums a regular thing. If the Union is so great, where’s the problem? Just ask everyone every few years “Is this still working for you?”

Precident nifan, its been set,

If any precedent has been set, it would be that major constitutional referenda on issues such as devolution or independence occur rarely, many years apart, eg. 1979, 1997, 2014 – ‘once in a generation’ you might say, not just an ongoing neverendum.

…So how many times do they get to call a ref until they win one?

Until they collectively “grow a set” and decide to become an independent state I guess.
Can’t help but feel they “had their big chance and blew it” , and from here on it’s all just gas and pebbles – shame, it would have been fun to watch

We just, and sorry if this sounds crude, have to wait until the Union-loving pensioners die off. Then it’s a done deal.

You don’t have a democratic right to a referendum on independence – you seem to keep forgetting that you are constitutionally bound into the union “for ever after” – Article one of the Act of Union!

It is well known convention that one parliament cannot bind another one. Any and all acts can be repealed by any following govt.
It therefore seems reasonable to argue the ruling of a 17 th Century one, not elected by Universal suffrage, cannot bind the people of Scotland now.

Neverenduum made me chuckle

Quite a horrible comment to make, putting political preferences over human life – says it all really

We just, and sorry if this sounds crude, have to wait until the Union-loving pensioners die off. Then it’s a done deal.

You’re waiting for the days when the elderly are no longer more conservative than the young? Good luck with that.

Tbh 2030 sounds about right to me for another one anyhow ninfan, i actially agree that successive tory governments will reject any ref, and fly in the face of democracy. But like I say just a matter of time. Unless something drastic happens in UK politics, more of the same doesn’t bode well.

fly in the face of democracy

We had democracy last Sept. So it is done for quite a while.

Perhaps the SNP might see about using the next 15 or 20 years and increased devolved powers to demonstrate the capacity of Scotland to thrive as it gains more autonomy.

Last time there was too much supposition, baseless assertion and uncertainty to bridge. As the gap in powers between devolution and independence narrows it becomes easier to argue how to get across it.

Quite a horrible comment to make, putting political preferences over human life – says it all really

Errrrr…….Maggie Thatcher (there, I’ve said it!).
To get back on topic I don’t think Scotland is alone in this. I personally feel disassociated with the whole political process. I hope the ‘London Bubble’ bursts soon but am afraid it will not until we devolve power regionally. The sooner cities like Birmingham and Manchester gain more political momentum and gain control over their own funding and how it’s spent the better.

Tbh if youse hadn’t noticed I’m not particularly shouting for another ref. The whole corbyn thing interests me greatly and is preferable to snp hegemony. But if that fails I’ll much prefer the SNP to the Tory dominance(of whichever hue) of UK politics.

Fair point, agree 100%!

…Errrrr…….Maggie Thatcher (there, I’ve said it!).

Yup, ben “granny killer” cooper in the same league as the mother of all that is evil, nice comparison 😉

We just, and sorry if this sounds crude, have to wait until the Union-loving pensioners die off. Then it’s a done deal.

And if the young grow up to be less nationalist and more accepting that borders are irrelevant

As many as we want; that’s democracy.

You mean as you want….Despite the fact the SNP has all but 2 seats in Scotland it only has half the vote…and of those not all will want independence. The fact that this has raised its ugly head so soon after last time tells me that the SNP are far more interested in their own agenda than serving the people of Scotland.

How many elections should we have before declaring one party the winners forever?

But its not the same at all really is it, daft argument.

Nope. But it’s not irreversible, so that’s OK.

You honestly think that there would be the opportunity for an independent Scotland to rejoin the union, at least in the short to medium term? How would that work?

tpbiker – Member

You honestly think that there would be the opportunity for an independent Scotland to rejoin the union, at least in the short to medium term? How would that work?

It’d work by both parties going “Let’s get together” and then doing it. You know, like last time. And like every other time 2 countries combined.

tpbiker – Member
As many as we want; that’s democracy.
You mean as you want….Despite the fact the SNP has all but 2 seats in Scotland it only has half the vote…

There is no-one here argueing against democratic principles, well apart from you and the likes of ninfan. we understand democracy fine. It doesn’t work on a 50%+1 principle.

If a referendum is put in a manifesto and voted down, people are willing to accept that.

We won’t accept not having that choice however.

incidently, we’re getting an EU referendum on the basis only around 50% of the electorate voting for it.

tpbiker – Member

You honestly think that there would be the opportunity for an independent Scotland to rejoin the union, at least in the short to medium term? How would that work?If the union is so good for the UK why wouldn’t it be a possibility?

When something is talked about as being reversible, there’s an implicit assumption that the decision to reverse is in the same hands as those that made the original decision.

It wouldn’t be as rUK would have to agree. So, whilst it is possible, it doesn’t mean that it is a foregone conclusion.

We won’t accept not having that choice however.

Some of us assume the choice made in Sept 2014, billed as a once in a generation choice, is a democratic decision which needs to be respected for a while – perhaps even a generation.

Can you imagine a role reversal situation where, following a Yes vote but before separation, a revival of unionist leaning Labour and decline in SNP support justified another poll,just to check? I can imagine lots of SNP demands that the referendum result be respected.

Yup, ben “granny killer” cooper in the same league as the mother of all that is evil, nice comparison

What?

Old people die eventually – I’m sorry if this statement of fact is incredibly shocking to you. Going by all the polls, support for independence is highest in the youngest age groups, and only drops below 50% in the over-65s.

I know there’s a theory that people get more right-wing as they age, not sure if that’s really true. I’m also pretty unsure if the same can be said for support for independence.

If the union is so good for the UK why wouldn’t it be a possibility?

Oh, keep up – we’re a massive drain on the UK and completely unable to look after ourselves, that’s why we have to stay in the Union for our own good so we can get some adult supervision. The rUK doesn’t really want us (apart for grouse shooting etc) but is selflessly looking after us.

😀

Did you lot learn NOTHING from the last monster thread?!

£10 on 50 pages.

oldbloke – Member
When something is talked about as being reversible, there’s an implicit assumption that the decision to reverse is in the same hands as those that made the original decision.

It wouldn’t be as rUK would have to agree. So, whilst it is possible, it doesn’t mean that it is a foregone conclusion.

We won’t accept not having that choice however.
Some of us assume the choice made in Sept 2014, billed as a once in a generation choice, is a democratic decision which needs to be respected for a while – perhaps even a generation.
Can you imagine a role reversal situation where, following a Yes vote but before separation, a revival of unionist leaning Labour and decline in SNP support justified another poll,just to check? I can imagine lots of SNP demands that the referendum result be respected.The referendum result is being respected, if it wasn’t we’d be in the midsts of a civil war right now ffs! 😆

Politics don’t stand still for very long.

Anyhow, I’m out justifying the right to a referendum, you either agree with it or not. I really wasn’t wanting this to turn into to that type of tedium and have to explain how democracy works. Personally I thought it was bloody obvious, but clearly not.

Did you lot learn NOTHING from the last monster thread?!

£10 on 50 pages.

It’s the first anniversary, the old band is getting back together 😀

Oh lord please no

It wont happen if Molly can noble Ben 😉

oldbloke – Member

When something is talked about as being reversible, there’s an implicit assumption that the decision to reverse is in the same hands as those that made the original decision.

No, there really isn’t.

Old Angus was quite good on PMQ I thought (did I say that?)

Much harder to reverse cutting a rope IMO – hence need reasoned thought before undertaking such a move!

teamhurtmore – Member
Old Angus was quite good on PMQ I thought (did I say that?)

He was aye, I’d like to see him and corbyn get on the same page regarding questions, that’d be an interesting tactic.

teamhurtmore – Member
Much harder to reverse cutting a rope IMO – hence need reasoned thought before undertaking such a move!

Agree, I don’t think anyone with think it would be easy.

Matter of time, could be infinity. I very much doubt a Conservative government will grant Scotland another referendum with a binding “Westminster” agreement. A referendum isn’t going to be in the Labour parties interests so I don’t think any coalition with the SNP would agree to one. The SNP can hold its own vote if it wishes much like the Catalans did but there is no obligation to recognise it. As per our prior discussions why shouldn’t the rest of the UK not get a referendum on Scottish Independence as it impacts us ?

Scotland has one of the most devolved Parliaments in the world. It’s time to get on with making use of that. The SNP are geniuses at diversion, they manage to divert attention from their (lack of) success in government and the fact with oil at the current price their economic plans would be in tatters.