The trial of Anders Breivik

I’m unconvinced that making hate based propaganda which encourages and glorifies murder easily available somehow makes it less effective or easier to control.

Well we are not talking about the distribution of hate based propaganda, we are talking about a trial, where hateful bullshit will try to be used as an excuse. Hate groups already use the secrecy of Governments to drive their propaganda. Conspiracy theories are exploding in numbers because of the failure of governments to operate openly.
Hiding justice from public view can only make that worse, justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done. We need too have confidence that those who exercise power on our behalf do so also in our interest.

Don’t you guys watch TV or go to bed?

Don’t you guys watch TV or go to bed?

Not while the world needs saving!

With his 1500 page ‘manifesto’ already in the public domain, and heavily reported, I don’t think allowing him to speak at his own trial is going to be as damaging as a perceived ‘silencing’ of him would be.

Who would have thought that clicking on a threadcabout a mass murderer would be so funny. Well done guys.

And the very thing he wants is being achieved right here, he’s being talked about

Really???

Much of the talk is about your own abhorrent views….

I’ll re-state the reminder – there is a lot of “we” on this thread should we do this, should we allow that.

This is about:
Norwegian justice system
Norwegian sociatal and cultural values
Norwegian response to the heinious crimes committed against their own…

If you show me strong evidence of clamouring crowds in Oslo, baying for capital punishment and retribution, then you might go some way to convincing me.

No. The Norwegians seem to have shown a remarkable dignity in dealing with this.

Glad to see you’ve managed to sort this delicate subject out then.

All we need is to decide who gets to be Lord High Master, Judge, Jury and Executioner? Will it be Hora or Derek. Both seem perfectly qualified. Hmmmmmmmm Its a dilemma alright

binners – Member
All we need is to decide who gets to be Lord High Master Executioner? Will it be Hora or Derek. Both seem perfectly qualified. Hmmmmmmmm Its a dilemma alright

Easy way to sort it out – Thunderdome!

there is a lot of “we” on this thread should we do this, should we allow that.

That’s because their is nothing peculiar about Norway that created this crime, it could just have easily happened in any European country, and it is not unreasonable to discuss it in terms of how it effects wider society or could have effected our own countries.

MSP – I agree that the right wing hatred is borderless.

But – the proponents of swift retribution are overprinting their own politically influenced, right wing UK or US based views of “justice” onto a scenario based in a small population, tolerant, conservative scandinavian country.

swiss01 – Member
interesting that a thread about a mass murder in norway, committed by a norwegian, being tried in a norwegian court should elicit so little in the way of actual reference to the norwegian legal system, the effects on the political system or, heaven forbid, the victims themselves.

Indeed. I was going to post something along these lines yesterday but couldn’t be arsed getting into a thread that was totally derailed by fantasists of “terminations”, “eliminations”, and various forms of prolonged and torturous deaths as representing justice. Oh, and spiced up with the occasional crass and insensitive comment, spurious stats, thinly-veiled homophobic asides, and truly remarkable displays of “pure logic”. STW continues to trawl the depths, but that doesn’t really seem a surprise any more.

As you mention, the press coverage on either side of the north sea is interesting, and at times revealing – just like some of the utter bollocks being posted on here. It’s actually pretty sad to imagine that a significant (vocal) minority within the UK might be unable, afraid or unwilling to consider this issue with confidence and reflexivity comparable to their Norwegian counterparts.

Oh, and a +1 for richmtb’s post on page 2 of the thread, and rkk01’s post higher up this [edit, the previous] page.

If you need to debate executions/terminations without trial, at least use the correct term – assassination.
Would be better on its own thread though.

There is a certain irony about condemning a right wing nutter who executed the perceived enemies of his ideology, by suggesting as a solution….. executing him.

No doubt this whistled so far over the heads of the would-be hangmen, they never even saw it

You couldn’t make it up

I also think referring to him as a ‘nutjob’ when he has been declared sane by professionals who know what they’re talking about is nothing but a safety blanket.

It’s a lot easier to deal with something like that if you dismiss it as the work of ‘madness’ or ‘evil’ rather than confronting the scary proposition that someone in possession of all their faculties can commit these horrific acts. And helps to dehumanise the perpetrator so calls for ‘elimination’ or ‘termination’ (ie killing) are more palatable.

I’m unconvinced that making hate based propaganda which encourages and glorifies murder easily available somehow makes it less effective or easier to control.

Yeah but my point is that it will get out and be discussed, regardless of reporting restrictions imposed, as the super injunction debacle showed us.

So the question is would you rather have it reported by the BBC or StormFront?
That’s where the “control” aspect comes in.

thinly-veiled homophobic asides

???? I must have missed those. 😕

Wow. After all the bollx that’s been previously posted on this thread, by adolescent sounding Judge Dredd wannabes, it’s nice to see that this new page has brought some sense back into it.

Meanwhile over on twitter Ken Livingstone’s old friend and advisor on race Lee Jasper is blaming the Norway killings on the Tory party.

“Its your divisive politics that creates the enviro where the Breviks of this world gain the courage of their racist convictions”

Proper Twitterspat yesterday, he really thinks white folk are basically all racist.

Quite obviously not ‘blaming the Norway killings on the Tory party’.

Graham S – (I think) it’s stuff like this:

even for you and other single speed riding lycra boys who bivi in the same sleeping bag is fundamental to the human condition.

That was one of derekrides I believe.

he really thinks white folk are basically all racist.

No, he doesn’t. He’s just an opportunist that will say anything to keep his profile up. IIRC he only joined the Labour Party about ten minutes before they won in 1997.

ernie_lynch – Member
Whilst the overwhelming majority of people will obviously just be simply repulsed by it all, and more than likely will be even more determined to oppose intolerance having seen what it can eventually lead to, it’s not them I’m worried about. There is a significant amount of people in the world who share Breivik’s deep hatred and welcome the killing of innocent people based on their colour, culture, and/or creed. I have no wish to see him inspire them.

Ernie – this is well put and I agree with your concerns, but this does not IMO lead to the conclusion…

ernie_lynch – Member
I think there should be reporting restrictions and that he shouldn’t be allowed to use the trial as a platform to disseminate his hate-driven murderous agenda, something which he clearly relishes doing.

Yes, it feels abhorrent that this guy gets/will get so much coverage and the BBC website this morning churns my stomach as this is the lead story combined with tasteless (again IMO) tag lines such as “key moments of the opening day” and “Norway’s trial of the century.” But it is also too easy to take these kinds of consequential arguments too far and as others have pointed out almost impossible to to define the limits on these cases objectively.

In the end the more categorical arguments around freedom of the press, right to fair trial, respect for everyone’s human rights (including those of alleged and proven criminals and murderers) surely outweigh other arguments. Of course, at times this insults our feelings and sensitivities and freedom of the press can easily become press manipulation (especially given current concentration of ownership etc). But that is sadly a price to pay for our greater liberties.

I would “prefer” there to be no coverage of this trial in the UK for many of Ernie’s reasons but would also prefer to live in a society where that was not mandated by law. So for that reason, I agree with MSP:

MSP – Member
Hiding justice from public view can only make that worse, justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done. We need too have confidence that those who exercise power on our behalf do so also in our interest.

From Teh Grauniad coverage today:

There are many more who believe it is wrong for the media to report his justifications. But some of those who survived his attacks think differently.
Bjørn Magnus Jacobsen Ihler, 20, managed to hide from Breivik on Utøya. Outside the courtroom, he said: “I think it’s very important to hear what he has to say. I think it’s very important to listen to him because these ideas aren’t just Breivik’s ideas. He shares them with a lot of people … it’s important to look at these societies and break into them and get new ideas into them. We have to do whatever we can to fight future extremism from all political sides.”

2 good posts ^^^, I hope the media give as much coverage to Bjørn Magnus Jacobsen Ihler and others blowing holes in breivik’s mentalist statements, and generally pointing out how stupid and despicable they/he are.

I hope that the media also gives an opportunity to interview Hora and Derek, on the courtroom steps, arguing the relative merits of being thrown out of a window, or eaten by tigers

If someone disagrees with you in person do you keep at them until they change their opinion to yours?

Awwwwwwwwww, binners you big meanie.

People are allowed to have differing opinions, you know? You’re getting confused again. What you’re thinking of is fascism.

Which, if I’m honest, is disappointing at this juncture, as up to then you’d been coming across as reasonable and thoughtful. Especially about the tigers. A much under-utilised tool in the armoury of the criminal justice system

I am appalled that the Norwegian authorities have failed in their responsibilities to the international community and have allowed Breivik a platform to promote his views globally. He might well be just one individual but his views will have significant support among the far-right throughout the world.

Pretty much my view – we have given him a platform when everyone knows he is guilty as charged..it is a show trial and rather than the state doing it he is doing it…It is not great idea IMHO and he has already published a huge manifesto. Re the Guardian quote – it is hardly surprising the media gave a quote supporting the views of the media.. I have no idea what the consensus view is re the survivors or those directly affected.

hope that the media also gives an opportunity to interview Hora and Derek, on the courtroom steps, arguing the relative merits of being thrown out of a window, or eaten by tigers

no that would be wrong Binners and I would kill them for kiling and then you would need to kill me and before long it would just be Graham left to tut at our stupidity

hora – Member
If someone disagrees with you in person do you keep at them until they change their opinion to yours?

Hello hora, we’ve never met but well said anyway, oh and how do you do by the way..

As to ‘them’ we’ve committed that fateful error of ‘being wrong on the internet’ it’ll keep em going for days..

Even though in my instance I’ve been polite enough to acknowledge I accept their views and understand it is so much better to publicise and endlessly discuss a mass murderer such as this than the simple expedient of dealing with him in similar vein to the manner in which he despatched his victims..

But then that is the Socialist Society Leftist way, unless you keep fear of the bogey man present, you cannot justify government, nor the huge expense of it…

oh good a circular argument

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww bless. The ‘special’ children have gravitated naturally to one another. Play nice now boys

Special children?

derekrides – Member

But then that is the Socialist Society Leftist way, unless you keep fear of the bogey man present, you cannot justify government, nor the huge expense of it…

What tosh.

Hang on a minute? Someone agreeing with you? Hmmmmmmmmm. Very suspicious?

Have you stopped taking your medication? Is this schizophrenia live on the internet? Actually…. reading ‘both’ your posts, that would explain a lot

I reckon they are two new Elfin identities.

But then that is the Socialist Society Leftist way, unless you keep fear of the bogey man present, you cannot justify government, nor the huge expense of it..

The state [ government] existed due to the King [often to simply provide a military army for said monarch ]- I am pretty sure the monarchs were not socialist lefties judging by the way they amazed wealth and power in the hands of a hereditary peerage

Could you expand on your reasoning please as to your claim [ it seems to be right wing rhetoric that is very poorly thought out – you will be telling me that America – biggest army spending in the world are a bunch if lefty socialist no doubt or perhaps using an explanation involving Tigers?

Special children?

i read that as him saying you are both a bit thick…the fact you asked for clarity as to what this meant adds further weight to this view

Lifer – Member

What tosh.

Sorry chap you are wrong, fear is what drives all governments of left or right persuasion, it is fundamental to their existence, dates right back to feudalism. It also drives economies, it is driving our economy right now, do you really think we are at that huge a risk of terrorism at our airports for example.

The ‘war on terror’ if it really were a war it wouldn’t have been that difficult to win now would it?

We are all constantly manipulated and fear is an essential ingredient of society, always has been and always will be.. So simple solutions are too cheap, far better for long drawn out wealth and job creating ones.. Oh and of course humanitarian, lets not forget that..

Wow, I stand back and applaud the way big hitters are revealing themselves on this thread

The Norwegian authorities aren’t giving Breivik a platform they are exposing his deluded fascism to the world in the hope of demonstrating where it can lead.

In the same way that 9-11 essentially ended Irish terrorism hopefully exposing Breivik for what he really is in the full glare of an open media will actually set back the facist cause.

Groups on the fringe of respectable politics with a thinly veiled (very thinly in the case of some) ultra right wing / facist agenda will be forced to moderate their views in light of Breivik actions as they know that openly fascist views will not be tolerated.

What do you think this trial will do for the ability of the likes of the BNP and EDL to raise funds?

It’s a lot easier to deal with something like that if you dismiss it as the work of ‘madness’ or ‘evil’ rather than confronting the scary proposition that someone in possession of all their faculties can commit these horrific acts. And helps to dehumanise the perpetrator so calls for ‘elimination’ or ‘termination’ (ie killing) are more palatable.

It’s clear to anyone that in the common use of the word anyone who could do something like he has is “bonkers”. I’d be more interested in what led him to his views and actions though.