The STW Ski & Snowboard thread. The 2014-2015 season

All very Euro-style technique: leading with arms and shoulders

And how did it compare for you GrahamS?

CASI still teach ‘beginner turns’ with upper-body rotation to initiate the turn. As riders progress this moves towards the feet for more performance turns [including riding in powder where upper body rotation = faceplant etc]

Some argue that ‘foot steering’ etc should be taught to beginners since ‘what people learn first, they do best’ however the case for upper body turn initiation is to try and get people moving on the board and having fun as the drop out rate for people trying winter sports is really high (about 80%). Once they’ve decided to stick with it you can introduce other techniques.

stevomcd – what’s the current BASI stance/take/syllabus on turn initiation using upper body?

In other news I’ve been practising in the Fernie avalanche transceiver training area with my Ortovox 3+. I’ve done loads of practice in the past, but only limited with multiple buriels so it took me a while to suss out what was happening with my Ortovox 3+ whilst searching for 5 beacons – after refering back to the manual it seems that when 4+ beacons are detected and signals overlap, the Ortovox 3+ can take a few seconds to distinguish between them and you can recommence searching.

It was a excercise well worth doing!!

Wow is the drop out rate 80% . Had no idea it was that high. What is the definition of dropping out? Going for a week then never going again because they hated it?

I remember getting my haircut and telling the woman that I was going snowboarding. She said why on earth would you want to get wet and cold and endanger your life for fun. I dintn’ really argue but I saw her point. Anyway what I mean is I can see why people my not want to try winter sports, but those that do I’m really surprised so many don’t like it.

I found the euro techniques that I learned last year really helped in moguls etc.

‘Pedalling’ technique makes a lot of sense in other scenarios though.

2 days to go, 2 days to go, off to Cham i go..

Agree the body rotation can help in tight tree lines as well as moguls, i’d say it compliments the “feet turn”. I remember when i was learning to board, the EFS bloke was very insistent on getting your upper body to move, you can see really lazy technique in those that don’t, looking rigid and never ready ..

I got taught both techniques, and the body rotation is a sight easier when you start.

That said, the turn was more about weight shift caused by he you hold your body than the rotation itself. They (Swiss types) were very clear that you rotate, pause, then turn.

Anyway what I mean is I can see why people my not want to try winter sports, but those that do I’m really surprised so many don’t like it.

Interesting one this…I find it hard to believe that the drop-out rate is 80% (not saying it’s not true, I just wouldn’t have thought it was that high).

I know a few people who go skiing (moreso than boarding), not because they enjoy it, but for status. I also know a few people that have gone on a winter holiday and kind of enjoyed it, but weren’t quite prepared for the stuff they never show you in the brochures…shitty icy conditions, slush at the bottom meaning everything is soaked, how rude people are when it comes to lifts, the expense of eating out on the mountain, and lastly, the faffing…oh the **** faffing, gloves, helmet, sunscreen…let’s not even start on the faff I imagine goes with having little ones skiing too. 😀

Not saying it’s not all worth it, but sometimes, people prefer the much less hassle of a beach holiday which is much cheaper.

I find the faffing with kids is less than I expected really. This maybe because my attitude to the whole holiday has changed now that I have kids, I know i’m not gonna be riding as much these days so just try to relax and have fun. It’ll never be first lift up, last lift down again but I accept that. Kids just get on with stuff, they love snow!!

But yes the general faffingness can be a bloody nightmare at times!!

I’m getting excited now, finish work at 4 and will be sleeping in a Premiere Classe outside of Paris tonight on my way down to Andorra!! 😀

Wow is the drop out rate 80%

This was this figure quoted to me by CASI when I did my instructor course in 07/08 – clearly this relates to Canada where people might try a weekend at the local ski hill rather than in the UK where folks will probably have more idea of whether they actually like it or not before they commit to a week away.

I know a few people who go skiing (moreso than boarding), not because they enjoy it, but for status.

Yeah – Europe does have a big chunk of people who like ‘To be seen Skiing’.

Digby – BASI teaching is definitely very focussed on using foot steering / pedalling to initiate turns, from beginner right through to expert level.

Nevertheless, it’s not about having a rigidly-static upper-body as some people have made it out to be at times. For instructors’ personal performance, the level 1 and 2 exams are very much based around “centred, stacked and aligned” posture. At level 3 though, there is a lot more room for personal style / expression as long as the board is working properly.

I personally use a lot of upper body rotation for some tasks, especially carving. Importantly though, the rotation is NOT to initiate the turn. The turn is initiated from the feet, then as I twist the board to increase grip and performance, this naturally leads to some upper-body rotation.

The same is true even in gnarly moguls, trees etc. – the upper body adds extra drive, but the turn comes from the feet.

Freestyle is another matter – then it’s all about the upper-body separation.

Turning by using the upper-body is easier to learn, for sure. It’s also the way most self-taught snowboarders ride. Unfortunately, it is a complete nightmare to then un-learn this technique and start to make decent, rounded turns.

…then it’s all about the upper-body separation.

o_O you separate the upper and lower body??

Mental note to never stay with Stevomcd made 😉

Backside 1440s are all about upper body rotation 🙂

stevomcd – thanks for the BASI info, that’s interesting and in my opinion a much better approach:
Like you say, trying to get riders to ‘un-learn’ a technique is pretty tough – especially when upper body rotation & ‘swinging the back-end out’ has been getting people down the hill for a few years.

centred, stacked and aligned

Agreed – for technical progression having a ‘quiet upper body’ helped me loads – once dialled I was then able to add some ‘character’ to my riding without looking like ‘jazz hands’ or ‘drinking bird’ 😯

I don’t think the shoulder rotation I was taught at Saas Fee sounds like what steveomcd is describing

They were very clear about shoulders across the board when on the heel edge, along the board on the toe edge and when you wanted to turn move the shoulders round, pause, then turn. You did not use the rotational momentum to turn the board, you used your position to pressure either the toe or heel edge. With time that naturally became simply pressuring the edges without doing the rotation thing.

That said they did like both bindings pointing forward – which I had to relearn.

Edit – actually just standing here, turning my shoulders across the board naturally pedals the front heel slightly.

igm, yes the Swiss system is quite different from the BASI system (it’s pretty unique in fact!).

It’s a slightly weird way of getting there but, like you say, the end goal is much the same – pressure on the appropriate part of the edge. The BASI system goes more-or-less directly to pressuring edges. Other systems take a roundabout way to get there.

To be fair, the Canadians think we’re weird for talking about pedalling all the time… (but hey, they talk about “knee steering”…)

My Swedish instructor told me to “ski like a Gorilla”

I rather suspect he actually meant “you ski like a Gorilla” and it was lost in translation.

My Swedish instructor told me to “ski like a Gorilla”

Canadian instructor said the same thing to our group in relation to keeping a wider stance with more bent knees when doing high speed turns.

I had a weeks worth of snowboard lessons in La Plagne 3 or 4 years ago. IIRC they talked about using the head and shoulders rather than any talk of peddling.

whatnobeer – if an instructor tells you to turn the board with the head and shoulders, run away!

I’m trying to think of an analogy for why it is so bad. I think it’s a bit like teaching a mountain-biker to jump by just pulling-up on their SPD pedals. It’ll kind of work and you’ll be able to hop small obstacles on the trail. But it’ll get you into deep trouble on drop-offs, you’ll never be able to hop much higher and it’ll mess you up for hitting bike-park type jumps. It will let you do what you need to do right now, but cripples your future progression.

In short, head-and-shoulder turning is something that, if taught at all, should be to get people through their first week. It should then rapidly be replaced by turning the board from the feet up.

Can I just say that this time next week my boots, helmet, goggles and ski gear will be packed in my bag* along with my work stuff, all ready to fly to Montana!

Woop! Woop! Woop!

😀

*Cheap piece of rubbish that it is. 😉

In short, head-and-shoulder turning is something that, if taught at all, should be to get people through their first week. It should then rapidly be replaced by turning the board from the feet up.

This was my first week on a board (and in horrible icy conditions too), but sounds like what igm is describing , it was combined with flattening the board and changing edges and mainly used to get the weight in the right place.

This was a few years ago though and I’ve not been on a snowboard since so can’t really give much insight on to how my style and technique has evolved since then!

Flashy, 22 sleeps for us. But we got the DKSRs down from the loft to get all the kit into one of them – it’s so reassuring to use them for their intended use again and know we’ve got quality luggage. You’ve got a week – still time. 😛

DD – given the butler will be sorting out CFH’s luggage anyway he does need to worry about mere trifles like will it fall apart when the baggage handlers touch it. If it does the butler will make them wish they’d taken more care and the contents will be spirited to their destination unscathed. A decent butler can work wonders.

Edit – CFH is Bertie Wooster isn’t he? I always see him as Bertie Wooster

And how did it compare for you GrahamS?

Yeah it was interesting. I’m pretty much self taught but I’ve been doing it long enough to remember the “shoot the guns” styles, the shoulder turns, swinging arms and crappy leg swishes.

Pedalling was a bit of a revelation for me a few years back (via the Go Snowboard book) and really progressed my riding, so having an instructor tell me that my feet should be still and flat was a bit odd.

But I went with it. He started with teaching basic turns with two phases: initiating the turn by standing up slightly to unweight and “signalling” the board by shoulder and hip; then phase 2, riding the turn by squatting back down parallel to the board with central weight. (He was pretty clear that the initiation was about a weight shift to “tell the board where to go”, rather than trying to yank the board around as some folk seem to)

All that bobbing up and down felt a bit stilted and beginner-ish at first, though it was quite comfortable to ride switch that way. It made a lot more sense when he then progressed it to unweighting by squatting lower instead of standing up. That felt more like how I already do cross-unders, sort of bouncing with the turn and getting a rhythm flowing.

I played around with it a fair bit today outside the confines of a lesson, doing the same runs, then some faster reds, some slush and a little off piste. I found I was mixing bits of that style with bits of foot pedalling depending on what I was doing, so all in all probably a positive thing.

The other plus point was that he sorted out my wife’s stance (persuading away from her old skool aggressive +18/-6 to a standard +15/-15) and then got her doing a bit of switch. It’s a conversation I’ve had with her a few times, but apparently it makes much more sense when it comes from a sexy Frenchman. 😀

He’ll be absolutely tumescent when he reads what you’ve written igm. 🙂

flying this Saturday morning for my lot – you wouldn’t believe how nasty my case is 😆

tumescent

#strangest

😀

(was out about 3 weeks ago with some mates and had a go on snowboard for a day – **** me, that was hard work ! I made it to dinnertime still learning, but was a total wreck in the afternoon. Had only ever tried it a couple of times before, in deep soft snow & whiteouts and this time it was on bone hard piste. Not doing that again, EVER)

Snowboards are meant for deep soft snow.

People that like riding them on bullet hard icy pistes are just skiers in denial 😉

I took to switch quite quickly…

My first week boarding being shown by a mate, was agony, as I put the wrong foot forward when he pushed me unexpectedly in the shop where we were renting a board. Hence I rode goofy – and spent the week in a haze of alcohol and ibuprofen. I shir you not, I had never previously or have never since had a more painful week of activity. Next time I tried, thinking there must have been something wrong before, I just thought I’d say “regular” in the board rental place. And joined a beginners’ class. It was a revelation. Mind you, the snow was much better too. Really fell in love with boarding that week – but also found that riding switch was much easier than the other beginners due to my previous year’s week of riding goofy. The instructor and class were all impressed. Of course I explained why exactly switch might have come a little easier to me. Yeah, course I did… 🙂

I’ve always turned with my upper body. But am guilty of flicking my toes when I get a bit tired or am feeling a bit nervous on a shit or scary but of piste. That was how I was taught that second week in Zell and I’ve never really felt the need to do it differently as the opportunities to ride really deep powder/off piste have been few and far between.

I’m not an instructor but I’ve spent a few weeks ridng with high level basi guys.
I started in 94 ish? When it was all shoulder and positive stances. Took a bit to change to foot pedaling basi style but I now can ride pretty much anything using the same technique.
Counter rotation will get you going quickly but as soon as you move from easy blues to anything steeper you’ll hit a block.
You see it on every piste. 90mph (look hey I’m cool) then heel edge down this steep bit and 90mph again.

To be fair, the Canadians think we’re weird for talking about pedalling all the time… (but hey, they talk about “knee steering”…)

It’s odd isn’t it? and I’m sure there’s an element of semantics and multiple ways to ‘skin a cat’!

On my instructor assessment I was complemented and told that I rode in typical ‘CASI style’ … despite the fact that I actually rode using the foot pedalling and pressure transfer technique I’d learned on a McNab Technical Clinic some years earlier … with no knee steering in sight!! 🙂

All that bobbing up and down felt a bit stilted and beginner-ish at first, though it was quite comfortable to ride switch that way

‘flexion’ & ‘extension’ / up un-weighting / down un-weighting / cross over turns / cross under turns are all useful & effective ways to build pressure in the board to initiate edge change. Different conditions can requires subtle changes in technique, but for me, getting a ‘performance turn’ out of my board all starts with the foot steering/pedalling

persuading away from her old skool aggressive +18/-6 to a standard +15/-15

Was it changing your wife’s stance to ‘duck’ or increasing the total angle of her stance by 6 degrees that made the improvement? It’s often the total degrees that’s more important as the +/- just varies the rider’s field of view (depending on whether you are on a directional/twin-tip/carve board etc)

getting a ‘performance turn’ out of my board all starts with the foot steering/pedalling

Yeah I won’t be giving up the pedalling any time soon, but I might try mixing in some of the stuff from the lesson.

Was it changing your wife’s stance to ‘duck’ or increasing the total angle of her stance by 6 degrees that made the improvement?

No idea, but he did say she could try +12/-12 if that felt more comfortable so I think the important thing was to be duck. He used switch riding to reinforce the techniques – since there is less muscle memory of old techniques that way – and I guess that would have been much harder in her old stance.

I was taught in the early 90’s at SSV and my last lesson on a board was 10 years ago (Do I sound like I’m at an AA meeting?).
I can get down pretty much anything piste/steepness wise, but don’t like moguls.
Powder has never really been an option when we’ve been away.
I assume I’ve been taught the shoulder lead method and looking at GoPro footage my hands are moving around alot.
I’m more than likely going back to France next year, so which method do ESF teach?

Do you think I would benefit from lessons? Also private or group?
Any tips in the meantime to practice at the Domes?

ESF snowboard lessons are a bit variable unforunately. The younger guys, especially those who are passionate about snowboarding, are fairly enlightened these days. But there are still a lot of “point where you want to go” dudes out there too.

It’s odd isn’t it? and I’m sure there’s an element of semantics and multiple ways to ‘skin a cat’!

Definitely. High level riding is high level riding and, while people who have been trained in different ways may think different thoughts or use different sequences of movement, they tend to end up in the same place in the end.

The skiers are still arguing about the best way to ski and they’ve had a lot longer to sort it out than we have…

Digby – How is the snow in Fernie at the moment?

We are booked to go there in a couple of weeks, but the snow report and some of the rider comments point towards doom and gloom – little snow, slush and a high chance of getting rained on… Is it as bad as that?

We can cancel with no penalty up until a few days before we go, a lot can change in 2 weeks but if there’s no big change we will look to switch to somewhere with better snow…

which method do ESF teach?

Our dude was from ESS, rather than the ubiquitous ESF, and he was also a Salamon team rider* so definitely knew his stuff, but was keen on teaching shoulder/hip initiation and passive feet.

.

* Amusing conversation: Dude: “Ah I am very familiar with zese bindings. What do you think of zem?”
Missus: “They’re okay, but the ratchets are crap.”, Dude: “Actually I was on ze team zat designed zese bindings…”, Missus: “…oh” 😳

Digby – How is the snow in Fernie at the moment?

Pretty poor actually. It hasn’t stopped me getting out on the hill, but some of the locals reckon it’s the worse season [so far] since the ski hill opened in the ’70s 🙁

A huge pacific weather system came through which would have been epic if was a few degrees colder – unfortunately it fell as rain on all but the very highest runs. It’s 7:00 am at the moment and it’s 6 degrees celcius

There’s still great riding at the top of Timber and Currie Bowls and they are trying to get the Polar Peak chair open for ‘Family Week’ next week, but conditions at the base area are shocking with loads of the creeks opening up and huge bare patches. The groomers have done an impressive job but the snow base is compromised and only a massive storm cycle and low temps will make it last till the end of season. At the moment, no big systems are on the radar – but you never know.

If you do come, the advantage with places live Fernie is there’s plenty of other stuff to do – Fat Biking is big this season and loads of the Ski shops are renting out bikes!! 🙂

Definitely. High level riding is high level riding and, while people who have been trained in different ways may think different thoughts or use different sequences of movement, they tend to end up in the same place in the end

Spot on I think stevemcd! 🙂

Do you think I would benefit from lessons? Also private or group?

Depends I think – are you happy / having fun with your riding at the moment? or have you reached a plateau / wish to progress to another level?

Same with MTB coaching – Private is more expensive but you get one-to-one. There always a ‘risk’ with a group lesson unless everyone on the lesson is at a similar level

Pretty poor actually. It hasn’t stopped me getting out on the hill, but some of the locals reckon it’s the worse season [so far] since the ski hill opened in the ’70s

Thanks – we’ll probably keep an eye on it for the next week or so, and unless it changes look to cancel 🙁

It’s actually a return trip to Fernie after 11 or so years – it’s where our very first boarding holiday was. It’s supposed to be one of the best resorts in BC but we only saw a few of the green runs as we were total noobs, so now we are a little better we were going to come back and check the rest of it out!

La plagne has been sunny all week no snow. Next week is rain at low level and cloud cover.

It’s getting patchy and I saw a butterfly today.