The rain in Spain

I just arrived, denia area, its hot and sunny down here.  Sea is c20 degrees so OK for paddling.  I know the affected valencia areas well and the hostility is the lack of warning when they knew it was coming, hence the fatality count.

To put the flood level in perspective the water rose to the level of overhead gantries on the motorway, drivers heading into valencia on motorway were driving towards the problem without knowing.

Climate change is real, its 40 degrees most summer now, it used to be just a few 40 degree days.  Winters used to be cool, warm in the sun, now it’s t shirt and shorts weather most winter.

Yeah it’s nice here right now, near Mojacar… But in July August it’s just unbearably hot.. No exaggeration, you’d have to be insane to sunbathe unless first thing in the morning or at sundown. I love a bit of sun but there is a limit!

I’ve been struggling with the holiday flights thing for a few years. Flew over to France earlier this year, my previous flights being a return to Barra 6 years ago. I have friends who’ve been out to Mallorca 3 times this year, a couple of others went to Calpe and now I’ve been invited to join a Mallorca group next April. In my head I just can’t disassociate the carbon impact of the flights from the devastation we’re seeing. I’m not exactly super-concious of my environmental impact otherwise, so already feel like a bit of a hypocrite. Without pointing fingers or trying to send anyone on a guilt trip, how are others squaring this circle? I’ll admit that part of me is just thinking ****.it nobody else cares so why should I?

@Scotroutes

My two hour each way, daily commute is via bus and subway. My wife has a car, but it’s barely out of the driveway nowadays unless it’s to go for groceries or taking her oldies to the doctor. If I need to go anywhere, it’s either bus or bike. We put out one landfill rubbish bag per month, everything else is recycled. That’s how I justify our once every year or two holiday flights.

C. 😉

Without pointing fingers or trying to send anyone on a guilt trip, how are others squaring this circle? I’ll admit that part of me is just thinking ****.it nobody else cares so why should I?

Flights is a really difficult one. Aviation is very definitely doing a whole load of greenwashing, especially with crap like “sustainable aviation fuels” – although equally, they do make efforts to be as fuel-efficient as possible cos ultimately, it costs them less money!

Successive Governments have incentivised flying, Spain itself is offering (or certainly has offered in the past) extremely low landing fees for their more out of the way airports in a bid to encourage tourism. They now seem to be reaping the whirlwind of that in the “Tourists Go Home” protests across parts of the Canaries and Balearics in particular.

On the one hand, I think “well the plane is flying there anyway, whether I’m on it or not”. That pollution is happening, regardless of my actions. Obviously if I do book onto it, that’s validating the airline’s decision to operate that flight in the first place and if no-one booked onto it (and if that pattern was repeated across Europe) then there might be fewer flights overall eventually.

Or alternatively, airlines will do some more aggressive marketing and cost-cutting and if they’re offering a return flight to Spain for £30….

Ultimately, it needs addressing at national and international policy level. France for example have done some good work in banning domestic flights where there is an equivalent train journey in <3hrs. France however has an excellent network of high-speed rail, reliable and cheap. The UK has none of that which brings us back to successive UK governments messing things up.

I too have been struggling to square this circle. Holidayed in Cornwall this year, but drove down  – we couldn’t have contemplated going by train because of a) the cost for four plus a dog, b) the amount of stuff we took, c) poor transport links from where we live meant going into and across London and coming back out again.

Last year was a week north of Aberdeen (Newburgh, if you know it) and we did go by train, but it was just MrsDoor and me. Flying would have been a quarter of the price and ten times quicker.

I turned down the option of going to Thailand for a family wedding in March. Bloody long way to go for a wedding IMO, but I’m one of only a few who have said no. The rest of the family are going. Makes me look like a right fun sponge.

Friends and relatives are flying all over the world at the drop of a hat (neighbours on each side are currently in Tobago and Egypt respectively), and many also fly within Britain because of the convenience, while many work colleagues go on cruises. I decided a while ago not to start the obvious conversation with them, as it has Brexit-like potential to polarise people, and who am I to tell somebody else how to spend their money. But one look at FR24 to see how many flights are in the air at any one time (13000+rn) makes me wonder whether I’m being a bit evangelical while everybody else is flying off to exotic places and having a ball. Horsehair shirts are not for me.

I try to do my bit locally, but is it enough, or are we all doomed regardless? I watch US citizens running around in their massive pickups (bestselling Ford Ranger is 22mpg) and then see the devastating floods there, and worldwide, and, while I have empathy for them, I also think that they’re not really helping the situation. Obviously I’m not putting climate change causality at the door of the US here.

We can’t ignore the fact that invariably climate change often hits the hardest those who are not really net contributors too.

According to a BBC article I read, aviation is responsible for about 2% of global carbon emissions.

Presumably that 2% must include things like the super rich using private jets every day, the normal rich using private jets or first class flights very often, politicians and business people going on regular “business trips” that aren’t really necessary, freight ultimately heading to consumers who probably haven’t considered the carbon cost of the products they are buying, whole industries like elite sport and music that involve lots of air travel etc etc.

So if you’re just looking at the emissions caused by ordinary people going on holiday once or twice per year, it must just be a fairly small fraction of that 2%, which itself pales in comparison to things like energy generation.

Edit – I think I also read that going meat free some days per week is one of the most impactful thing an individual can do.

Without pointing fingers or trying to send anyone on a guilt trip, how are others squaring this circle?

Also personally struggling.  I’ve actually flown twice in the last 21 years, the second time this Easter. MrsMC is keen we travel/fly more now the kids are grown up and before we are “too” old (her disability may colour her view) but I’m ambivalent at best, there aren’t many places I think “I must see” abroad when there’s so much I want to see in the UK first. This is causing some tension, I’ll be honest.

That said, me taking a stand and refusing to fly means **** all when the vast majority of carbon emissions are generated by corporations,  not individuals. One trip by air a year is enough for me and my conscience though.

I watch US citizens running around in their massive pickups

It’s easy to pick up on that but what we in the UK don’t get is that apparently more than half of US “roads” are not tarmacked. Yes, a big 22mpg pick up seems crazy to us, but if you’ve got a 1-2 hour gravel drive to your nearest big town to do a big shop, an i10 is going to struggle.

Air travel is too cheap, yesterday manchester to alicante was 35 quid via easyjet, ryanair was 25 quid same trip.  Plane was half full.

I fly twice a year, I know some people who fly 10-20 times, just for holidays, ie, completely unnecessary.  If you were taxed on a progressively higher scale the more flights you took, you may be nudged into different behaviour.

Yeah it’s nice here right now, near Mojacar… But in July August it’s just unbearably hot.. No exaggeration, you’d have to be insane to sunbathe unless first thing in the morning or at sundown. I love a bit of sun but there is a limit!

Mmmmm Badgers  🙂

Go on admit it you thought you were booking for Majorca 🙂

I’m on a lot of Spanish Facebook groups ,heres a pic of the water level on one road from the Spanish Police on the N332 group 🙁

So if you’re just looking at the emissions caused by ordinary people going on holiday once or twice per year, it must just be a fairly small fraction of that 2%, which itself pales in comparison to things like energy generation.

Maybe that’s the perspective I need.

So if you’re just looking at the emissions caused by ordinary people going on holiday once or twice per year, it must just be a fairly small fraction of that 2%, which itself pales in comparison to things like energy generation.

Absolute nonsense it’s the overwhelming contributor. You may like a nice summer holiday or two to Spain but take responsibility for your own actions rather than think it’s that other bloke.

or maybe start a new thread to calculate personal emmissions..

or maybe start a new thread to calculate personal emmissions..

You really don’t wan’t to use the bathroom after me if I’ve had a few beers and a donner the night before.

@tonyf1 my logic makes sense to me. The few people who fly loads are going to have a bigger impact than normal people going on occasional holidays. But if you’ve got stats that disprove it then I’m open to being proved wrong.

I haven’t been on a plane for nearly a decade by the way. Why so quick to judge? You don’t have to answer.

Possibly, but as someone above said, after prolonged dry spells, several years in this case, the regular ground becomes pretty much rock solid, so when it does rain hard, the water isn’t absorbed into the ground… It all just runs downhill on the surface…hopefully into strategically built storm drains, but if they are obstructed, they overflow.

Similar things happened here in the U.K., a flood destroyed much of Lynton and Lynmouth, and there was Boscastle, in both cases a static storm dumped several months worth of rain onto bogs on the high ground that had been drained for grazing, etc, and the water tore through both towns in a manner similar to Valencia, but on nothing like the scale. In all instances, human interference with the local environment contributed to the flooding and destruction.

Interesting article on the been

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8xy03zk44o

Factor in corruption and the recovery will be equally as complicated and unsatisfactory.

It’s easy to pick up on that but what we in the UK don’t get is that apparently more than half of US “roads” are not tarmacked. Yes, a big 22mpg pick up seems crazy to us, but if you’ve got a 1-2 hour gravel drive to your nearest big town to do a big shop, an i10 is going to struggle.

And only about 3% of the population use those untarmacked roads with any regularity.
3% of the US population needing a pickup/4×4 isn’t the problem.
It’s Chad and all his bros doing their solo daily drive from Sunnyvale to downtown San Jose in a 5.7 litre V8.

Also, from what i can remember, freight makes up less than 10% of global flights and military about 5%. The rest is fairly evenly split between commercial (airlines/holiday makers etc), private (little private planes) and then the “for hire” type stuff. The emissions per sector, i’ve no idea, as the typical plane size varies massively between each!
But again, the “important” stuff, moving goods and services around isn’t the (major) issue with aviation. (Though it still needs to be minimised).
It’s Chad and his bros (and their families) flying off to Cancun or where ever twice a year.

I lived in the Murcia region for around 20 years in a small mountain village.

There was absolutely no provision for rainwater control.The only drains were for sewage.Rain that fell collected in the streets,and ended up flowing in the same direction and all the flows coming together.

Somewhere down the valley is going to get the brunt of all these flows.And this in an area that actually needs water for agriculture yet it is allowed to flow away.At the moment here almond trees that are dead or dying are being pulled out because of the lack of water.

Murcias a funny one thou,

, rainfall in Murcia is very irregular, with an average of only 300 millimetres per year and a dry period that can last for up to 10 months of the year: “We have a Mediterranean climate where it is normal to experience a summer drought, but we have an extreme case. It should rain in autumn, spring and winter, but the peculiarity of our area is that this is not the case.”

This should, in theory, cause massive problems for Murcia, a Region that – somewhat conversely it may seem – has one of the largest and most productive fruit and vegetable agriculture industries in the country.

But it is exactly this consistent lack of rainfall that means Murcia is so well placed to deal with drought, and not suffer the consequences.

“Our water use is much higher than what we have naturally, and we have been without water for a long time because there was no water in the reservoirs, how have we always overcome this without restrictions? Because of desalinated water and water treatment plants,”

Without pointing fingers or trying to send anyone on a guilt trip, how are others squaring this circle? I’ll admit that part of me is just thinking ****.it nobody else cares so why should I?

I have not read all the replies to this

For me the key thing is to be accountable for your actions and to take what steps you reasonably can but without wearing a hair shirt.  Its the travel thats as much the issue as the type of travel tho trains are generally better.  One flight every few years is less damaging than several a year.

My flights to Canada this year probably had a carbon footprint similar to what I have saved in a year or two of not having a car to put it in perspective.  I’m going to go to NZ next year – that will wipe out several years of savings.  However thats the only long haul flights I have taken since a kid ( unless a couple of trips to the canaries count?) and I won’t take any more.  My last european trip was to the netherlands – car to newcastle and ferry over the north sea.

So be aware of your actions, be accountable for them.  Minimise impacts where you can without impacting excessively on your quality of life.  The things you do personally are a small part compared to the big things we do as a nations

There is certainly a part of me that now thinks “eff it – no one really cares and its all fubar now anyway”  Not a helpful attitude.

can you guys start another thread about how to assuage one’s guilt when flying too much/too little or not enough ??

We should keep this thread focused on the Floods in Spain

apologies

it’s a big topic, I often struggle with that

a new thread might have a wider audience

Interesting article from the Dutch MetOffice (KNMI) explaining the high precipitation rates associated with this flood (Google translate is your friend).  Don’t forget that human behaviour, like not maintaining storm drains, has an influence here too.

https://www.knmi.nl/over-het-knmi/nieuws/waarom-viel-er-de-afgelopen-dagen-zoveel-regen-in-spanje

Don’t forget that human behaviour, like not maintaining storm drains, has an influence here too.

This seems to be a bit of a target for some of the upset, according to a colleague who lives nearby. Lots of discussion around lack of maintenance of storm drain systems, lack of focus on keeping nature based solutions such as trees and ground cover to prevent the hard, dry surface which promotes run-off, and a *lot* of development for decades in areas both prone to flooding or which contribute to flooding….

Valencia is a great example of what can go wrong if you play with nature, the living embodiment of flip around and find out

After the flood in 1957 they decided to re-route the river Turia around the city. There’s lots of videos online about this and the wonderful park they constructed along the river’s old course. Most of those videos will tell you how great it was and how radical. I guess there will be new vids coming out soon with a very different perspective.

Some interesting commentary here from an engineering perspective

Valencia flooding | Engineering solutions could have saved lives

Valencia is a great example of what can go wrong if you play with nature, the living embodiment of flip around and find out

Arguably it didn’t go wrong – it diverted the flood waters from the centre, which would have been even worse. Interesting article, though – I hadn’t considered the impact of cars (literally) when it comes to flood deaths.

With flooding of this type (flash flood/pluvial) the suspended materials, i.e. crap floating in the water, can be anything from fence panels, toys to cars, trucks, trees, cows etc

The other thing not generally appreciated is the speed at which the water moves – it’s very fast!  For normal river flooding it’s usually a slow creep of rising water overs days until the water overtops the defences.

With flooding of this type (flash flood/pluvial) the suspended materials, i.e. crap floating in the water, can be anything from fence panels, toys to cars, trucks, trees, cows etc

Yeah, it was clear there is a lot of suspended material, but I never considered that impact from the cars themselves was one of the principal causes of death – I assumed it was people getting trapped in spaces and drowning.

I never considered that impact from the cars themselves was one of the principal causes of death

Cars are hugely problematic in flood situations. One stranded car can block a road that’s needed for evacuation or for emergency access and they can get stranded ridiculously easily. Most people assume cars are far safer than they actually are but it only takes a foot of water to float most cars. And the 4×4 things that actually are capable of fording deeper than that (surprisingly few) are almost always driven by people who don’t have that experience anyway. Also easy to get trapped in them, the water pressure outside will hold the doors shut and electric windows almost always fail at the first hint of water in them.

And the aftermath – as seen in Valencia – is a lot of expensive, hard-to-shift debris, cars piled on top of one another. That sort of weight being swept along in a flood is pretty lethal to anything in its path too. You’ve basically created a flood with hundreds of 2-ton floating boulders in it.

flood waters from the centre

it was also designed to minimise the impact of flooding on the arable land/ rice fields around the city too.

As well as cars, the suspended material in the flood water will include a lot of topsoil washed from farm land so that will impact agriculture.

It shows we are putting too much ‘non-permeable’ materials down everywhere. Valencia was shocking at the speed – literally went from no water, to a deep torrent in 30-45 minutes. We’ve got to stop building with materials that aren’t permitting natural soak-away.

no water, to a deep torrent in 30-45 minuteS

Yeah, my sister lives c30lm south of Valencia- she drove into work there were just warnings of “heavy rainfall”. She parked in an underground metro car park and couldn’t get back to it.

Luckily her mother in law still lives in the city so she could stay there for a couple of days and could get back to her car.

A couple of my brother in law’s siblings live in the outlying areas. They’ve been cut off as bridges to their villages have been destroyed.

And the aftermath – as seen in Valencia – is a lot of expensive, hard-to-shift debris, cars piled on top of one another. That sort of weight being swept along in a flood is pretty lethal to anything in its path too. You’ve basically created a flood with hundreds of 2-ton floating boulders in it.

Yeah, just (perhaps naively) assumed that people wouldn’t actually get in the way of that!

It shows we are putting too much ‘non-permeable’ materials down everywhere.

Realistically nothing is going to absorb that amount of water, in that short a time. Add in near-drought conditions for the past few years, and absorption isn’t an option.

There’s a heavy rain warning for the Calpe / Altea area about 120km south of Valencia now. (07 Nov).

My rain app is showing some rain there but much heavier over parts of the Med just east of Spain. Missing out Mallorca for the moment though.

Presumably that 2% must include things like the super rich using private jets every day, the normal rich using private jets or first class flights very often, politicians and business people going on regular “business trips” that aren’t really necessary, freight ultimately heading to consumers who probably haven’t considered the carbon cost of the products they are buying, whole industries like elite sport and music that involve lots of air travel etc etc.

So if you’re just looking at the emissions caused by ordinary people going on holiday once or twice per year, it must just be a fairly small fraction of that 2%, which itself pales in comparison to things like energy generation.

Well, you’re wrong.

Private jets are worse per person, but there’s hardly any of them, same but a bit less bad / a bit more of them for 1st class, etc.

Then there’s the question of who’s flying.  You’re trying to justify it by looking at Trump Force One and saying “well I’m not in the 0.0000001%”, but you are in the top few percent.  A return flight across Europe uses more energy per person than heating your house or diving your car all year.  A seat on a plane has roughly the same fuel economy as a car, the difference is that 300 people don’t collectively get up and drive 5000 miles in separate cars for a weekend break.

My Spanish bro in law is In the military in Spain, he’s only just been told that he’ll be mobilised to help next week – word on the street is that theres still 2000+ people missing in Valencia. No idea how true that is or if it’s just social media murmurs but cirtainly explains the mud throwing earlier this week. But that number was apparently reported by some news agencies (not in Spain). It cirtainly seems like the national and local governments in Spain are trying to down play the lack of response.

We’ve got to stop building with materials that aren’t permitting natural soak-away.

I don’t think a soak away would have worked when there’s  a year’s worth of rain in 24 hrs. Valencia development had rerouted a couple of natural rivers and flood routes away from built up areas – these were absolutely overrun and water will always find the quickest way down. It’s a bit like building on a flood plain and then blaming the tarmac.