The F1 Thread…

The races go on for a lot longer than one hour.

Think of it in terms of miles per hour. A speed camera can flash you for exceeding thirty miles per hour for a fraction of a second. They don’t have to monitor you for an hour.

I think Red Bull believe that their fuel flow sensors are correct and refused to comply with the instructions to turn it down just to comply with a badly calibrated or unreliable sensor provided by the FIA.

But all the other teams had no difficulty complying and certainly would not take Redbulls hand on heart saying we never went above the flowrate honest .

The Red Bull appeal appears to be built around the “known” inconsistency of the the FIA flow meter.

is the known inconsistency evident when the driver floors it to overtake? To disregard warnings doesn’t really make any sense unless you have provable readings to back yourself up with. Back to the speeding thing, if your spedo was dodgy but a copper suggested you were going to fast would you continue or back off.

It seems quite harsh on red Bull

think they tried to swap out the dodgy FIA sensor and were told to swap it back

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112967

I don’t think redbull would try and seek advantage on this. They are based near here and i’m told they re very keen on compliance

of course that doesn’t mean that i think the appeal has to suceed

Overtake? I didn’t see Daniel get close to overtaking. Not bothered about Red Bull but it is a shame for him. Seems such a nice guy too, none of that tedious Seb style hollerin’ over the radio at the end.

Very pleased for Nico and also looking forward to a strong season from Williams.

All the info about the sensor being faulty in that article comes from Christian Horner, so I’d take that with a pinch of salt. I agree with Ricciardo bring a nice bloke though, it did seem a shame when they bumped him off the podium

If the FIA sensors are inconsistent as per Horner’s allegations then isn’t it a bit odd that RB were the only team who were caught out.

What are the chances of their cars being the only ones who end up with dodgy sensors – his comments make out that the sensors are fundamentally flawed.

Be interesting to see the outcome of the appeal but I can see it being a case of RB being told to FO.

They are based near here and i’m told they re very keen on compliance

you taking the piss? red bull aren’t keen on compliance, they’re keen on what they can get away with.

From what Horner said to

They had a faulty FIA sensor (FIA issue them to all the teams)
It was dodgy so FIA supplied another which failed
Original sensor refitted and data was officially offset to correct the earlier error.
RB team are arguing that the data from the fuel injectors shows that the fuel rate was correct.
My feeling is that is the all the teams are using the same sensors why aren’t they all having problems (especially the Renault engined ones)?

there is a quote somewhere about F1 being the sport where creative rule bending is the norm and that it’s more about the art of rule interpretation than anything else.

Roll on race 2, hopefully if a few more cars stay in the race we should have some more racing in the second half of the race. I was impressed by Buttons unassuming climb up there. If he can put it on the front half of the grid he might do well this year – the car seems to have the pace for that end of things.

F1 has always been about being “creative” with the regulations. But I don’t think that’s really any different to most sports.

Williams livery best on the grid, I kept getting confused between Merc and McLaren – so similar.

McLaren should have their title sponsor in place by next race.

Their performance in this race will certainly push their prices up

Horner will definitely only say what he wants you to hear but having said that no tech is foolproof and I’m sure RB know to the ml how much fuel they’re using at any given point in a race. It’s not as if DR was having to race anyone significantly so they needed to “cheat” so why would they?

Williams livery best on the grid

Fully agree – great to see the Martini colours back.

It’s not as if DR was having to race anyone significantly so they needed to “cheat” so why would they?

Because it’s in their DNA to take maximum advantage out of any opportunity – failed/dodgy fuel sensor gave them just such an opportunitu. As for not needing to race, Ricciardo was pushed hard by Magnesson and maybe would have lost 2nd with a lower engine mode – who knows?

Williams livery needs another decent sponsor on the sidepods before its complete, otherwise why not have the Martini roundels on there?

Speeder – Magnussen & Button weren’t that far behind, so perhaps increasing the fuel flow was the only thing that stopped them from getting past?

Ricciardo was pushed hard by Magnesson and maybe would have lost 2nd with a lower engine mode – who knows?

There was a point when Magnussen was gaining on Ricciardo by half a second a lap, before Ricciardo managed to start pulling away again. That might have been when RB decided that the fuel sensor was playing up…

Can’t see how Red Bull will get the decision overturned, otherwise every meeting will have one team or another claiming the sensor was playing up…

So, the cars are obviously a lot quieter.

Initially it was a bit off putting but by the end of the race I had kind of got used to it. Its quite cool being able to hear tyres squealing and the fans cheering.

What I didn’t like was the obvious fuel management dictating the racing.

Hopefully this will improve as the season progresses and the teams understand the engines and the fuel a bit better

If there was an issue with the sensor then the FIA will fail it and go to the secondary monitoring system (presumably the teams own data)
The issue here is that the FIA did not fail it and told RB they had to amend the fuel flow rate to fall within the rate they were set.
You can bet that during the race RB tried to get the FIA to fail the sensor (probably the first time the FIA came to them with the issue) but they didn’t. To then crack on using your own data is a level of arrogance that was always going to be punished. If they hadn’t the FIA might as well shut up shop and leave the teams to it.
I now presume this is what Di Montezemolo was talking about when he mentioned “trickery”

The local organisers are kicking off about the noise (lack of) but it seems to be mostly about doing the deal for post 2015.

I’m hoping with more cars finishing (or making half distance) the fuel management should make for more close racing as people are on different strategies with some being able to go for it while others are having to conserve after making a few hot laps to try and make a run for it. Check in a safety car and then it should all be up for grabs.

The sound thing is interesting – I’m sure FOM TV could do some tweaking to increase the apparent volume for the world wide audience, but Bernie isn’t a fan of these engines and guess who pulls the strings at FOM TV… conspiracy theory? Nah! 😉

Fuel management? IIRC a lot of the drivers were told that after the safety car they could push as hard as they liked & there’s already talk of running <100kg of fuel for some races. JB certainly said he had no fuel restrictions at the end so perhaps McL’s decision to run a different mode for KM was down to other factors – maybe cooling, maybe playing the long game on the engine, or maybe to increase ERS harvesting to give him the full beans for those last few laps?

The KB thing is down to the way that energy harvesting is worked out – IIRC it’s something along the lines of it being measured every two laps so by taking it a bit easy beforehand (eg not using all the K energy to speed the car up) you can then do a couple of laps with more K than normal – basically a good way to make an overtake if you’re stuck behind a car that you can keep up with without full K but can’t overtake under normal ‘engine’ map – you charge the battery up more for a couple of laps then use it all to overtake on the next one. Or if not that one, on the one after when the car you’re trying to overtake has used up all his K trying to keep ahead of you.

Apparently Melbourne is one of the toughest track to harvest Kers energy as there isn’t a lot of heavy braking.

At Sepang they won’t have the same issues.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112973

Red Bull was not the only team doubting the Formula 1 fuel flow sensors during the Australian Grand Prix, but its rivals knew they had to follow the FIA equipment.

Surely if accurate, this means there’s no way their appeal will be accepted – the other teams would then appeal the race for having been unfairly impeded by following the FIA’s figure even if they thought they were wrong, particularly as the rules seem fairly clear that the teams don’t get to choose the flow rate if the manual method is used.

This does smack of arrogance by RB which is a real shame.

Great article by Andrew Benson, nice to see him being getting free reign to express an opinion rather just reporting the facts. Maybe they are trying to fill the hole left by Gary Anderson’s departure? Also great to see a counterpoint to Ecclestone’s latest rant.

Agree, that puts Mr. E’s argument in its place.

I have a couple of questions about current F1 rules and I thought I’d try here rather than start a new thread

So yesterday my brother in law and I wrecked another family lunch yesterday with a technical discussion. (It didn’t help that we had just done inflation and gravity waves)

It doesn’t help that he actually really knows about combustion in engines.

Anyway he reckoned that having spoken to some one a Ferrari that the 100kg per hour was fairly irrelevant as the engines would knock if you exceeded that value any way

This contradicted my understanding which was that with no regulation on turbo boost pressure huge power was potentially available.

So I did a bit of googling and found that in the last turbo era teams were getting upto 850 hp at 10,500 rpm from 1500cc

But it looks like that they had to use some very specific fuels to achieve this without the engine knocking

So in 2014 F1 regulations

Is the fuel specified?

Is the compression ratio specified?

Thanks

PS apparently the new engines use late direct injection to avoid knock. But there is a limit to how late you can go and still have time for the fuel and air to mix

Yes, fuel is specified and essentially has to be pretty similar to pump fuel – not exotic mixes

Can’t recall for sure on compression ratio but I do seem to recall that it is specified.

I’ve got a choice to make, watch the F1 Sunday morning or do the 30mile Skyride in Macclesfield 🙁

that’s easy – ride then f1 on iplayer.

hora – Member
I’ve got a choice to make, watch the F1 Sunday morning or do the 30mile Skyride in Macclesfield

Haha! That’s got to be weather dependant hasn’t it?? The F1 will be on iPlayer if it’s sunny…

So I did a bit of googling and found that in the last turbo era teams were getting upto 850 hp at 10,500 rpm from 1500cc

I’m guessing that’s from the boost-restricted 1988 season? When boost was unlimited they got a lot more than 850 (something around 1500 in qualifying trim)… 🙂

Back in the 80’s turbo engines were using very specific exotic blends of toluene and benzene, god know what the octane rating was but it would have been well above 100. It would have to have been given that the engines were running 5+ bar of boost.

F1 fuel today is pretty similar to super unleaded, that’s why the new turbo engines will get detonation if they run too much boost, so boost isn’t restricted

(homer gurgle)……… last turbo era …………

i wonder if it well get to point where they start to run diesel powerplants (or indeed the rules are freed to allow diesel or petrol) combined with the electric?

I do know that the old BMW era turbo engines in qualifying trim were off the scale as far as power went. They didn’t have a dyno that went that high 😯 😆 estimated 1500hp they only had to last 3 laps. Bonkers

Sorry Pondo didn’t see your answer at least my figures are correct

I thought the BMW were kicking out a total of 1,500bhp, not 1,500bhp per litre so it would have been closer to 1,000 per litre.

Still impressive when you consider my old Integra Type R only managed 100 per litre but then again, that was non-turbo and lasted more than 3 laps…

By all accounts the 1.5l BMW blocks were the oldest highest mileage road blocks they could find to ensure they were as de-stressed as possible, and they were urinated on as there was something in the pee that helped the de-stressing process.

Must have been awesome things to try and drive with qualifying tyres!