The Electric Car Thread

I have found on properly icy roads that the regen braking from lifting your foot right off the accelerator will break traction in a way that doing the same with your foot in an ICE doesn’t, however that shouldn’t be a surprise because you learn quickly that their “engine braking” behaviour is different, and your use of the pedals changes accordingly. Also, if you want you can adjust settings to reduce regen power in the EVs I’ve experienced. I haven’t felt the need to but I live in the south. It’s also I think the case that they tend to have very good traction control systems.

Regardless though, anything with winter tyres vs anything without is marked, as is well documented.

he’s good at imagining how existing technology could be improved ……………then using the money to hire engineers to do the hard work of making things work.

Late to the party, but can someone explain how this is an insult?

(Currently working on a time for shares basis on a startup which could do with a £million or so in funding if Elon Musk or anyone else reading fancies a punt on some workflow/process simulation software).

Ioniq 5 does look rather nice and with Hyundai effeciency it should be very good. Is it a mini SUV or a traditional hatchback? It looks like they’ve kept a reasonable lid on inflating it to SUV proportions.

Its an SUV and not all that mini- its slightly longer than a VW ID4

To Luket – have you monitored consumption? That would be interesting – I don’t see why energy consumption to move the cae on a dry, windless road should be different at -10 to +10, and I don’t see a difference in my experience. But add a whole load of heating and then the consumption can change. Winter tyres, not much difference i.m.e. , but wind, water and especially snow, slush make a difference, though you see that as well on ICE cars (you fuel more often).

To Graham – On a properly designed battery it looks like a battery degrades ‘reverse exponential’ – most in the first year, and less and less after that. I’m impressed with the state of the battery in my 5,6 year old Leaf. I was informed by someone who designs batteries that that was normal – she designs batteries for submarines, ROV’s etc so is pretty well informed. There are some bad designs out there – the second Leaf battery circa 2013 doesn’t degrade well.

No comment on driving on the snow… we’ve just had 6 weeks of continual snow cover, and I live on a private road so no proper scraping or gritting, so a couple inches packed ice. Yes, everyone is on winter tyres though, but the only car off the road was a Beemer 5. There are probably 4 leafs, 6 or 7 Teslas, an MX-30, a Kona, a couple of e-trons and we all did ok :-). Put it in eco mode, and D rather than B.

I don’t see why energy consumption to move the cae on a dry, windless road should be different at -10 to +10, and I don’t see a difference in my experience.

The internal resistance of the battery is higher when colder; they also store less energy when colder, so even with the same consumption the total energy available will be reduced. The overall power consumption when charging may not change, but more will be lost as heat (either intentionally to heat the battery or through the increased resistance).

Cold air is also more dense, increasing consumption even if there is no wind. I wouldn’t be surprised if cold tyres increase resistance as well.

Even with preheating the car interior for most winter trips we still see a fairly significant range and efficiency drop when cold, especially for short trips.

I’ve always been e-curious, and my company is bringing in a salary sacrifice EV scheme.

I currently drive an A6 estate(PCP offer was too good to resist – no brand loyalty) and there don’t seem to be any e-estates.

I’ve followed Polestar for a few years and the P2 looks like a cross between my wife’s XC40 and my old Saab9-3, which is good. Range looks decent on it – any downsides?

People seemed to like the Polestar 2 when it first came out; I haven’t heard much about it recently or seen any about yet.

MG do an electric estate that got good reviews, although is in a very different bracket from the Polestar 2; MG 5 EV

there don’t seem to be any e-estates.

Wouldn’t an e-SUV do just as well? They don’t kill baby Robins like ICE SUVs do.

People seemed to like the Polestar 2 when it first came out; I haven’t heard much about it recently or seen any about yet.

This guy’s youtube channel is practically dedicated to the Polestar 2. It’s horribly inefficient. Every vid he posted pushed me further towards an e-Niro https://youtube.com/c/ShortCircuitPS2

An e-niro would be my ideal choice; big enough but not too big, goes far enough, efficient, not hideously expensive. Too expensive for our budget, though, which is why we’ve got an ioniq…

I hadn’t thought about the cold air… I’m on winters anyway so to some extent the difference betweeen summers and winter tyres is removed from the equation (at a given temp winters are softer). I’ve always assumed the problem is the battery, and getting charge into it. If I think I’ll need the range I charge in the garage – there’s a real difference between charging at 2C and -8.

No Polestars on my street, but there’s quite a few around locally, considering how long they’ve been for sale. They drive well – when they offered test drives I happily had a go. Price is pretty good too. Range isn’t the best though although a long way from horrible. Here’s Bjorn Nylands test, and he’s tested most things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVZt_wFmvNg

Wouldn’t an e-SUV do just as well? They don’t kill baby Robins like ICE SUVs do.

I know this is miniSUV vs hatchback, not SUV vs estate, but same principle?

vauxhall corsa-e 134hp, 50kWh battery. 1530kg. range 170miles 0-60 8.1
vauxhall mokka-e 134hp, 50kWh battery. 1550kg. range 155miles 0-60 8.5

Seems with the same battery and motor (unless I’m missing something) and almost the same weight the taller car/bigger tyres of the SUV make it slower to acclerate and less efficient.

Shame because the two tone paint of the Mokka in launch edition is the first good looking vauxhall since the monaro.

My i3 seemed to cope well in the snow until the deep stuff in the work car park where it got stuck!

As for the really cold weather, seemed to take longer to charge (via plug socket) and when fully charged the range dropped from around 150 to 110/120. Putting the heater up (or down too low) makes the range drop but general consumption seems very similar. Seems BMW have got their tech sorted when it comes to range as you always know what to expect and any changes you make show up very quickly.

Work colleague of mine volunteers as a blood biker. Blood bikers is a bit of a misnomer as they actually have blood drivers as well. They were given an i3 by BMW to trial. In the recent cold weather a number of their drivers had brown alert moments when the regen cut in in snow/ice and the wheels locked resulting on loss of control of the car- and these guys are experienced drivers. Needless to say they sent it back to BMW. Guess the combination of light weight narrow wheels and crap energy saver tyres was the problem.

In the recent cold weather a number of their drivers had brown alert moments when the regen cut in in snow/ice and the wheels locked resulting

Having driven my i3 in the snow a couple of times now it’s something to be aware of but not really an issue. Lifting off the accelerator a bit more gently than usual is all that’s needed.

Trying to provoke it I managed to get the rear end to twitch slightly but the TC soon sorts it out.

My i3 seemed to cope well in the snow until the deep stuff in the work car park where it got stuck!

Mine was surprisingly fine too. First morning it snowed wife was driving home from nightshift and did get stuck on a steep hill when the car ahead of her stopped, reached for the Traction Control button and…. yeah it hasn’t got one 😞
Now we’ve found it in the menus and set it up on a shortcut button – worth doing if you haven’t.
With it in “Traction” mode it generally keeps moving and we haven’t got stuck again yet.

Hoping to move to full electric next car via company car. Have had hybrid a few years ago and so aware of their limitations.

e SUVs seem a bit daft. Adding all that extra height and air resistance.

Ideally I’d want a mid to large sleek estate with 350 mile range from a quality car maker like polestar or bmw that has Tesla like charging infrastructure. Might be waiting a while …..

I think the suv is a popular platform for electric cars at the moment, because the extra height helps accommodate the batteries. Plus lots of people want them at the moment, so they know they’re going to sell them.

I had my Podpoint installed last week, and I’m expecting delivery of an A250e in 2 weeks time. It’s a company car and I went PHEV to get me used to plugging in, using public charging points and just generally trying to get everywhere on electric, but with the ICE comfort blanket. Range is 44 miles, and the forum guys get anything from mid 30s up to early 40s. Should see me to work and back.

Wouldn’t an e-SUV do just as well? They don’t kill baby Robins like ICE SUVs do.

vauxhall corsa-e 134hp, 50kWh battery. 1530kg. range 170miles 0-60 8.1
vauxhall mokka-e 134hp, 50kWh battery. 1550kg. range 155miles 0-60 8.5

The extra size here is knocking c.10% off quoted range and I suspect if your real world driving is higher average speed than the test then the real world difference will be a greater percentage (isn’t wind resistance proportional to speed squared?).

Range is more often important on one long journey than lots of short ones. And the long journey probably uses faster roads for longer. So my suspicion is that the SUV disadvantage is somewhat more in reality.

And on baby robins, SUV/hatch is still x% more in consumption and y% more resources used in manufacture. So the extent to which an electric SUV is worse than an electric hatch is going to be similar to the extent to which an ICE SUV is worse than an ICE hatch.

Also on those vauxhall numbers, 294Wh/mile (Corsa) doesn’t look very good for a small car – that’s Tesla Model S territory. I suspect some manufacturers (eg Hyundai and Tesla) have achieved a lot more on this than others. So I’d hazard a guess that consumption of e-niro, Kona etc Vs Mokka would show a stark contrast in real world use.

I think the suv is a popular platform for electric cars at the moment, because the extra height helps accommodate the batteries. Plus lots of people want them at the moment, so they know they’re going to sell them.

I think it’s all the latter point and pretty much none of the former, sadly.

@wbo yeah I have to a point monitored consumption. I have a data logging thing – teslafi – that produces a graph for this. But I’m ashamed to say I never worked out how to post photos! And my data set is limited of course. Anyway, mine shows about a 10% difference going from 5° to 15°. About 15% comparing the below 5° to over 15° averages.

Lots of cars referred to as SUVs like the eniro are just slightly raised hatchbacks with some chunkier stying cues. A Panda is taller, Zoe is taller, ID.3 is taller.

Awlso on those vauxhall numbers, 294Wh/mile (Corsa) doesn’t look very good for a small car – that’s Tesla Model S territory. I suspect some manufacturers (eg Hyundai and Tesla) have achieved a lot more on this than others. So I’d hazard a guess that consumption of e-niro, Kona etc Vs Mokka would show a stark contrast in real world use.

I’m getting a real world no special hypermiling 4 miles/kWh (250kWh/mile) out of a Hyundai Kona SUV in winter and I notice the efficiency is creeping up with the warmer weather. I haven’t driven it in spring summer yet but people regularly get 5 miles/kWh (200Wh/mile) out of Konas/e-Niros so still killing way less baby Robins than the Corsa hatch so at the moment the drivetrain efficiency between manufacturers is more important than body style. I prefer SUV anyway because of the higher driving position and they’re easier to get in and out of.

In the recent cold weather a number of their drivers had brown alert moments when the regen cut in in snow/ice and the wheels locked resulting on loss of control of the car- and these guys are experienced drivers.

Can’t say it’s something I noticed tbh.

In the recent cold weather a number of their drivers had brown alert moments when the regen cut in in snow/ice and the wheels locked resulting

Assuming you are a fairly smooth driver, you’ll get better range/efficiency turning regen down/off. Converting excess kinetic energy into electrical energy, chemical energy in the battery, back to electrical energy then back to kinetic energy results in losses at every stage. Leaving bigger gaps, taking your foot off the gas well in advance of junctions/roundabouts will mean you don’t need to keep scrubbing off speed and wasting energy.

Leaving bigger gaps, taking your foot off the gas well in advance of junctions/roundabouts will mean you don’t need to keep scrubbing off speed and wasting energy.

You don’t really need to take away the option of using regen to achieve this, you can just do it with your foot. Then you’ve got regen for when you do find you want it, like the last bit of deceleration to a junction, or a descent. Best of both worlds. My foot doesn’t come all the way off very often until at a near standstill. It may not be a true neutral coast but it’s so close as makes little difference.

Even used little, regen remains an important benefit of EVs/hybrids IMO.

Yes coasting in the Mitsubishi hybrid I had for a time was more efficient but it had a cool paddle to quickly click up the regency when you could use it like approaching junction or long steep downhills.

You don’t really need to take away the option of using regen to achieve this, you can just do it with your foot. Then you’ve got regen for when you do find you want it, like the last bit of deceleration to a junction, or a descent. Best of both worlds. My foot doesn’t come all the way off very often until at a near standstill. It may not be a true neutral coast but it’s so close as makes little difference.

Even used little, regen remains an important benefit of EVs/hybrids IMO.

You can still use the regen when you press the brake pedal gently, which is beneficial as you are recycling some energy instead of wasting in heat in the brakes. I just find it a bit daft that it effectively brakes every time you lift your foot off the accelerator, whether you need to brake or not, much better to maintain speed if possible. I accept you might be able to minimise this by lifting the pedal more slowly but probably not fully. I guess they want to emulate some of the engine braking effect of an ICE at the cost of some efficiency.

I think it’s all the latter point and pretty much none of the former, sadly.

No, it’s both. Audi used the Q range platform for the E-Tron as allowed them to sit batteries underneath then drop the body on top.

You can still use the regen when you press the brake pedal gently, which is beneficial as you are recycling some energy instead of wasting in heat in the brakes. I just find it a bit daft that it effectively brakes every time you lift your foot off the accelerator, whether you need to brake or not, much better to maintain speed if possible. I accept you might be able to minimise this by lifting the pedal more slowly but probably not fully. I guess they want to emulate some of the engine braking effect of an ICE at the cost of some efficiency.

Different strokes for different folks I reckon. So long as you can set up the car so that you have max regen available to you and can control it, it’s just choice. For me though, a move away from “one pedal driving” is a missed opportunity. Different cars have different ways of doing it – many are all motor control on the accelerator, including regen, and all friction brake control on the brake pedal. This doesn’t give what you describe but it does carry the advantage of giving you complete control to use regen for all your braking.

In the recent cold weather a number of their drivers had brown alert moments when the regen cut in in snow/ice and the wheels locked resulting

I’m really surprised by this because when a battery is that cold it will reject a mode B charge and the “engine braking” is inexistant or pathetic.

Dropping down from the ski resort when it’s cold enough for snow on the road the first thing I get is a big warning display telling me the battery is too cold for regen braking. As it warms up I get mode D regen which is similar to the engine braking from a petrol car but mode B doesn’t reappear until the temperature is significantly positive.

Something sensible on the environmental impact of elctric versus ICE for once:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/01/fossil-fuel-cars-make-hundreds-of-times-more-waste-than-electric-cars

You deem it sensible because it backs up your pre-existing beliefs 🙂

They were given an i3 by BMW to trial. In the recent cold weather a number of their drivers had brown alert moments when the regen cut in in snow/ice

Sounds like crap software to me, my Prius has never done this in 15 years.

It’s objective rather than something dreamed up by a marketing company working for the oil or ICE industry to discredit Electric cars. No smiley.

Check out my post on real world experience of driving an EV in snow and ice and consider it may be just more anti-EV bollocks rather than a software issue, Molgrips. It hasn’t been raised as an issue by i3 owners on here.

IME if it’s cold enough for snow and ice on the road the battery won’t accept a high enough charge rate to provoke excessive regen braking, that simple. The 52kWh Zoé regens at 36KW (or maybe more, I’m just quoting the highest number I’ve noticed) at 25°C but doesn’t even get to 8KW when it’s been left out overnight in sub-zero temperatures.

Perhaps other owners can quote the highest charge rate they get sub-zero and how that feels in terms of braking. The bigger the battery the more regen braking I’d expect.

Our Model 3 will break traction with regen on snow and ice. I’ve only had to drive it a couple of times in such conditions but with the regen set to high and a moderate (not complete) lift off it will break traction. The battery was probably quite warm from de-icing/cabin heating while sat on the drive. If I have to drive in such conditions again I will definitely be switching the regen to the lower setting.

Aside from that it handled OKish in the snow, especially given the sports orientated 20 inch tyres on the Performance model (Michelin Pilot Sport 4S). We got up a moderate incline with a lot of fresh snow on it and there were a couple of hatchbacks/saloons behind me that didn’t make it. Having 4WD and a motor at each end with the ‘skateboard’ battery pack no doubt helped things and if you were just breaking traction at each corner the car would move around a bit but scrabble up the hill quite nicely.

Don’t get me wrong, its a 2 tonne car and I wouldn’t want to lose it going downhill (like that bloke in Glasgow the other week!) but it handled pretty well. With a set of winter boots I expect it would be very good indeed.

“Break traction” is one thing and to be expected with a warm battery in mode B, but “the wheels locked resulting” is what’s being claimed by some. Checking on forums the Zoé isn’t the only EV that freewheels below about 10kmh making wheel “locking” with regen impossible. The wheels can be made to turn lower than road speed but not lock.

Breaking traction with engine breaking isn’t unique to EVs, years back my 2.5d Ducato would do it if deliberately provoked, but you don’t do you , you drive to the conditions and avoid violent inputs on slippy surfaces.

THe ICE reflex when a car got the bags on in snow and ice was “clutch down and steer”. Experience with the Zoé so far is “steer”, if the battery is warm I’ll make that “mode D and steer”.

Have we done this yet?

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a35410999/clean-hydrogen-goop-powerpaste/

Hydrogen stored in a paste at room temperature and pressure with cheap materials, that you can then release and use in a fuel cell. Ten times the energy density of lithium batteries apparently.

Trouble with hydrogen is by the time you’ve electrolysed water to make the hydrogen, compressed it, transported it to the filling station then used the fuel cell in the FCEV to convert it back into electricity you’ve got he same efficiency as a decent diesel but maybe a bit cleaner depending on what’s powering your grid. Much more efficient to generate the electricity push it down a cable with minimal losses straight into an EV battery. Having said that it may be a solution to HGV electrification.

This passage from the article you linked gives the reasons the paste stuff will never take off

“This technology sounds really promising and special, but there are huge logistical steps in terms of preparing the paste, manufacturing cartridges for it to go in, and making the refueling and disposal or recycling infrastructure for the spent cartridges of mostly magnesium.”

I’ve had a flick through some of the older posts on this thread, can anyone give some details about these “getting it through work” deals that seem to slash the price ridiculously?

I think people have got rid of my SUV objection, so I’m currently eyeing up the Mach-E and Polestar as vehicles compatible with my work and MTBing.

If you can get a BEV through your company car scheme then your benefit in kind is 0% this financial year then 1% year after and 2% year after that.

If you run a business and buy a car with less than 50g CO2 per mile then you can deduct the whole cost of the vehicle from your pre-tax profits. That’s why you are going to see a lot of Porsche Taycans around

It depends on your employer and the exact nature of the scheme. Generally speaking it’s some sort of salary sacrifice lease scheme where you can save quite of lot of tax depending on your tax bracket on the monthly cost, and for EVs the BIK is currently 0% so you’re not going to get a tax hit from that angle either (BIK gradually steps up to 1% for 2021/22 and 2% after that I think) because most (all?) are classed as company cars (even if you’re not entitled to a co car and you pay the monthly payments – that’s the case for me anyway).

Then, depending on the scheme you may not have to pay a deposit and the insurance, maintenance, etc. is often bundled into 1 monthly price. Add in some cheap/free fuel and it can be very attractive.