The Electric Car Thread

To clarify, by dumb charger, are people referring to 3 pin plugs?

Up until about 2020 a lot of 7kw home chargers didn’t have any smart features or the ability to communicate. They were effectively just a glorified type1/type2 plug socket that were capable of delivering 7kw.  The only way of controlling the charging was probably done by the car, if the car had that ability. That’s originally what people referred to as a dumb charger. Around 2020 the gov introduced a new rule that to qualify for the grant for charger install, the charger had to be smart ie ability to communicate and be communicated with.

I suppose now you can just assume dumb means anything that doesn’t have smart features including a basic 3 pin plug charger in with that definition.

I have an old Rolec 7kw dumb charger with type2 socket (no app or anything) but my car has a fairly good set of features to control the charging, so I don’t feel the need yet to get a new smart charger installed.

I did, for a few years, have an Ohme smart cable that plugged into my Rolec dumb charger to make it smart, unfortunately it stopped working.

First real road trip in my base Model Y (range 242 miles) taking my daughter for a week at the Ffestiniog railway. Amersham to Porthmadog and back in a day. 425 miles in 10 hours 11 minutes driving. Charged at Telford whilst having a burger for lunch, arrived early so topped up at Tremadog over a cup of tea (the cafe’s changed since the 90s, who’d have guessed? The crag looks the same though). Back in the day in the 90s I’d have stopped at Cannock or Shrewsbury for food and petrol, so no real difference. Return trip, charged at M5 Frankley. In the 90s I’d probably have just carried on all the way to London in one hit but I was a bit younger then.

I’m really impressed. Very, very comfortable to do that distance in a day despite my bad back, knackered left knee and right ankle. I was slightly worried about finding a charger in North Wales but I had a choice in Porthmadog – Tescos or Tremadog Cow Shed cafe. The Cow Shed is a much nicer place to spend 15 minutes – they even have a cheese vending machine!

At the other end of the price spectrum Zoe got us back to Pau from NE Germany in two days with a second day of 1050km. Thanks, Elon, for opening up the Tesla supercharger network.

The Tesla network is so reliable we were happy running the battery lower than previously and moving on as the charge rate slowed. That saved hours of charging  time over the day. The frequency of reliable chargers also made running higher speeds between them worthwhile. It used to be pointless going any faster than the trucks, it’s now a wothwhile running up to 105 kmh unless there are over 250km between charges.

Being surrounded by up to 16 charging Teslas and their happy owners on a row of 24 superchargers was confirmation that Tesla is the only company to have grasped what is needed to make EVs a viable alternative to ICEs.  I will admit to having spent one charge session browsing for deals on a Model 3 long range.

I was slightly worried about finding a charger in North Wales

There’s an 8-pack at Rhug farm estate in Corwen on the A5, but otherwise it’s pretty sparse, and if you do find one it’s a single or a double.

Being surrounded by up to 16 charging Teslas and their happy owners on a row of 24 superchargers was confirmation that Tesla is the only company to have grasped what is needed to make EVs a viable alternative to ICEs.

They aren’t the only company to grasp it but they’re the only company to roll their own network out in Europe. In the US, lots of car companies are (or were) trying to roll out their own networks which means that you don’t just have to find a charger – you have to find a charger that will work with your car.  I think our situation is now better.

I thought there were loads of chargers in France now anyway?  Here in the UK there are now a lot of motorway services with 24 or 32 chargers across different networks (but all compatible except for Tesla).  But that’s limited largely to the motorway network.

I thought there were loads of chargers in France now anyway?

If it weren’t for Tesla having opened up we’d have been queueing for hours. Where there were other chargers available they were out-numbered  2 or 3 to one by Tesla. I saw one guy faffing with a service station charger and asked him how much they were charging “70 cents”. I pointed out that in the time he’d been faffing he could have downloaded the Tesla app and be paying 39cents. He reversed across to Tesla and with a couple of minutes gave me a cheery wave and walked off to get a coffee.

It’s clear that Tesla intend to open up more. They’re installing chargers with longer cables to stretch to either side of the car. On the old generation Tesla chargers with short cables every Mercedes or Skoda with the charge port on the wrong side blocked two chargers.

Looking for a new vehicle on a 2nd hand budget and cars (and vans) still seem very expensive for what they are of all fuel flavours.

Then I came across 2nd hand the MG MG5. Pre facelift – a 2021 car with 25k miles on it can be had for £12,000. It’s quite hard to find many cars if that age and milage for that little. Are they that bad? I can see from reviews that is mediocre in pretty much every way and ugly. And Chinese with a possible ethical dilemma there.

Anyone got one? Sorry – it might have been done to death in the bazillion pages above and I’ve not picked it up with the forum advanced search features.

 Are they that bad?

I don’t think they’re bad. It’s just that they aren’t as good as the other options available when they were new.
According to some of my clients who had them as company cars, they’re perfectly adequate just a bit dull and old fashioned.
The issue is one of comparison rather than quality.
This is reflected in the used price though so probably a bargain

Anyone got one?

My dad owns one. Is pretty happy with it, I think. No problems doing longer trips, though I think the DC charging isn’t as fast as he’d like. Limited customisation options – it’s basically an ICE vehicle adapted to become an EV.

Think the biggest problem is that the paint is peeling off the bodywork and the dealer isn’t interested in fixing.

Meant to be very reliable – Cleevely mobile EV servicing run a few kitted out as vans putting loads of miles on them ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSrKtJb8Aso ) and there’s hundreds of thousands of them used as taxis in China.

Bit dull but you can’t complain for the money really.

Oh, thanks for that. I’m actually torn between a van and a car so interesting to see what they’ve done. Its for me commuting to work (50miles round trip, but Highlands so rural roads and some singletrack – and dark and cold for 3-4 months a year) but also paddling and biking. I paddle a surfski which is 6m long and white water so boats obviously will be on the roof. I suspect mountain bike might have to be too. But either whip the rear seats out or just get them as flat as possible and make an internal tarp material liner would probably do it.

The only problem with that is roof load, if it’s the higher spec with the rails then the earlier UK cars initially claimed 50kg, then no roof load, then finally 35kg. https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/7-months-after-going-on-sale-mg-can-finally-say-whether-owners-of-its-electric-car-can-use-the-roof-rails-aDorC5p4EiJj

If it’s one without the rails then you can get regular clamp/hook-on bars that take 75kg, or the later cars (long range then the facelift) did come with rails that do 75kg.

I paddle a surfski which is 6m long and white water so boats obviously will be on the roof. I suspect mountain bike might have to be too.

one thing to bear in mind is that stuff on the roof really eats up the range, on any EV.

Then I came across 2nd hand the MG MG5. Pre facelift – a 2021 car with 25k miles on it can be had for £12,000. It’s quite hard to find many cars if that age and milage for that little. Are they that bad? I can see from reviews that is mediocre in pretty much every way and ugly. And Chinese with a possible ethical dilemma there.

Anyone got one? Sorry – it might have been done to death in the bazillion pages above and I’ve not picked it up with the forum advanced search features.

My mate has one – seems fine, they’re happy. I have an MG ZS which is their mini SUV as a company car. Again pretty good – it’s a bit soulless I suppose, but for a local run around for two kids it’s perfect.

Yes, the roof load is a concern. As much the fixings left on all the time as when it’s being carried. Both the range reduction and the whistling noises which must be much more obvious in an EV. I could hardly that when carrying but a pain when just commuting with empty bike mounts and kayak cradles. The surfski is actually only 16kg in weight despite its length although the length puts quite bit of leverage on the bars. You’d want to be able to carry 2 WW boats for shuttles (same with the surfski) which would get a bit close to the load limit.

Also a touch worried about battery’s capability to handle 24/7 below zero temperatures…..but the Norwegians seems to love an EV so it must be well possible.

It’s all on hold after a chat with Octopus this morning. Currently the smart meter is not reliable enough in terms of signal for an EV leccy contract so they’ll need to investigate and apply for a booster and maybe an ariel….so I’ll need to sit on the idea for a little while.

Edited to add. The prefacelift is not rated for a tow bar either.

Thanks Ewan. And no one looks at the brand and thinks a bit dodge from an ethics perspective? Currently (aside from the money which makes it completely theoretical anyway) I don’t think I could be driving around in a Tesla…..

one thing to bear in mind is that stuff on the roof really eats up the range, on any EV.

Any idea in % terms what the effect of 2 sea kayaks at say 50 to 60mph would be? I’m pondering getting an EV as my next vehicle. Most of the miles I do are at weekends with 1 or 2 kayaks on the roof and its very rare to see a charger at any of the car parks. Even if there were I probably wouldn’t be particularly popular plugging in and then disappearing out to sea for 3 to 4 hrs.  On that basis would be looking for something that could do a ~ 170 miles in the winter with 2 kayaks.

re range with roof bars and bikes – my EV dropped to 2.5 miles per Kw (30%) on a mainly motorway trip to the Lakes earlier this summer. Changes to the balance of needing to recharge from matching the natural need to stop after 3-4hrs with the family to being just slightly too frequent.

I had a look at the ethics of buying EVs made in different countries and ended up putting all the Chinesse brands in last place. Musk may be a dick but I don’t see how you can reasonanly say a made in Berlin Tesla is ethically worse than any vehicle made In China.

I favour made in France/UK because I’m a national and dependant on the economic success of those countries. Then Europe, then USA, then Asia and last of all China. I’d rather see Musk make money than Xi.

Most Teslas on UK roads were made in China. Polestars and the electric Volvos are made in China. BMW iX3 is made in China. The new electric Smarts are made in China. There’s a load more brands like BYD, GWM and others here or coming, China makes a lot of cars in the European market now.

If you want to support local manufacturing then buy a Leaf, all the European ones since 2013 are made in Sunderland.

Any idea in % terms what the effect of 2 sea kayaks at say 50 to 60mph would be?

Surely it’ll be very similar to the %age drop in fuel efficiency of a similarly aero slippy petrol or diesel car. i.e. if your (thinking about the MG5) Passat diesel estate looses about 5% efficiency (say 50mpg to 47.5mpg) the EV would be about the same but measured in different units….

Personally I drive a bit slower with boats on the roof because of the stresses it putting on the boats and the roof which must compensate for it a little bit.

If you want to support local manufacturing then buy a Leaf, all the European ones since 2013 are made in Sunderland.

No one should buy a new Leaf because it uses the CHAdeMO charging standard, how they still manufacture and sell that car in Europe where most new charging locations are CCS only is beyond me.

Surely it’ll be very similar to the %age drop in fuel efficiency of a similarly aero slippy petrol or diesel car

That was sort of my assumption as well but at odds with

range with roof bars and bikes – my EV dropped to 2.5 miles per Kw (30%) on a mainly motorway trip

Maybe bikes are significantly worse than kayaks for increasing drag.

I would be changing from a T5 California (ie aerodynamics of a large brick). With that my consumption is about a 6% increase with kayaks on the roof, generally set the cruise control at 65mph on the motorway.

It was another poster looking at the MG. On my possible radar at the moment are things like the VW ID4, Skoda Enyak, Kia Nero and Renault Scenic. At a year or so old. Like the idea of the id Buzz but think I might struggle with range if it is nearer the 30% hit on range.

The problem with roof loads in EVs is that aerodynamic drag at motorway speeds is a rather higher proportion of losses for EVs than it is for ICEs. It’s why the speed/efficiency curves are so different. So increasing the aero drag has a more noticeable impact on EVs than ICEs. Plus of course range is rarely a concern for ICE so people just don’t think about it much.

We lost quite a chunk of range on our EV with either a vertical tandem (last year) or a roof box plus towbar rack with 2 bikes (this year) on long holiday trips. Still manageable but required a bit of calculation of range and charging points when trying to minimise the punitive commercial charges.

I wonder if you EVists would be prepared to indulge in a bit of crystal ball gazing for me?

I’ve always been a bit EV-curious. I bought my last car just over six years ago and always assumed that would be the last ICE car I bought. But I keep finding myself swithering.

I am in the fortunate position of being able to install a charger at home if I want and I drive over 20k miles a year, so the running cost savings at least could be significant. Also, from a position of almost total ignorance, I’m not as bothered about range as most people seem to be. Although I drive a lot of miles it is very rare that I actually do more than 150 miles in a day. Rare enough that I could probably justify just hiring an ICE car for the journey if it really was an issue. I probably wouldn’t, but I could. I also note that the number of public chargers seems to be increasing at something like 40% a year, so it really shouldn’t be an issue before too long.

No, what puts me off is questions over the longevity of the car. Not so much the battery. I know they last for ages, still have value even when the performance drops below what you would want for a car and I’m pretty sure that people will pop up who are able to refurbish them by the time it becomes an issue. It’s more the rest of the car that bothers me.

If I buy an ICE car I can be confident that in 20+ years there will still be people who can fix it. OK there may be questions around whether it is economically viable, but you can almost always fix an ICE car if you really want to. My first car was a Mk1 escort, which was already an old car when I bought it as a teenager in 1981. But at the weekend I saw a whole line of them driving along some local roads. Not mine, I put that one into a ditch hard enough that it wasn’t going to recover, but you get my point.

It seems to be that car manufacturers want you to treat an EV like a piece of consumer electronics. They are packed full of tech that the manufacturers have no intention of supporting beyond a few years. Then what?

In theory an EV is a fairly simple thing. Battery, motor(s), standard brake/suspension bits, a bunch of fairly standard sensors and the equivalent of an iPad to run the whole thing. So it’s possible that independent service centres will pop up that can fix (and even upgrade) older EVs.  But I can also see manufacturers keeping their IP very close to their chest, so this isn’t guaranteed.

So TLDR: do you think that in 10, 20 or 30 years there will be people who will be able to fix/upgrade a current generation EV or will they all be obsolete and consigned to the scrap heap by then?

I think that in 20 years time ICEs and EVs will have similar issues with electronics, hardware and software because they are both dependant on it. Infact the EV is much simpler with fewer sensors and electro-mecanical parts to fail.

The most common older EVs are the Model S and Zoe. If you browse the small ads you’ll find they are both still supported by the manufacturers. Here in France some of the very oldest get advertised with new batteries – about 12 000e for an 85kWh Tesla and half that for a 40kWh Zoe according to the bills presented in the ads.

Independant any brand EV specialists are appearing in France. Where there’s money to be made people will get involved. I’m confident.

@roverpig looks like you have the perfect use case for an EV. Like Edukator said current ICE vehicles will have the same issues with technology as EVs if not more so and here I’m thinking of hybrids. I’ll add the Nissan Leaf to the list of older EVs still getting support and there are also specialists out there that can swap faulty battery modules or even replace batteries.

Thanks both. That’s a good point. Maybe this isn’t an EV thing at all. It’s just modern cars getting so complicated that they may be hard to maintain long term. Or is it just me getting old ?

I still think that if I rock up to my local independent garage with any ICE car they will have a go at fixing it but if I turn up with an EV probably not. That’s probably going to change (for both ICE and EVs) though. Maybe not for the better but it’s probably not really a valid argument against EVs.

@roverpig

Interesting post.  I tend to run 4-5 year old cars for 4-6 years.  I rack up 15-20,000 miles a year.  I do plenty of 150-250 mile days.

I’d have no qualms about getting an EV based on that.

The ONLY two reasons I just bought another diesel (full of electrical wizardry and emissions mitigating complicated bits to go wrong) are

1) because of a small number of places I go to with trailers for sailing events that means charging would be a colossal pain in the backside.

2) for my budget every single family trip away would have involved a range sucking roof box with resultant extra public charging costs because we couldn’t afford a massive SUV EV where the boot is big enough to split it for a large dog and a weekend of luggage.

Interestingly I think I might already have spotted my next car and it’s the new VW EV estate (I forget the model number) that’s about to go on sale.  5 years from now that’ll be on my list and in my age / mileage sweet spot and I’ll hopefully be doing less tramping around to youth sailing events by then.

MG are now saying their traction batteries are warrantied for 10 years in Thailand therefore they must expect them to last a lot longer than that. Lets see if this is rolled out world wide.

Oh, and I’ve just discovered due to my rural scottish location I’m eligible for grants of £400 off the cost of a charger at home and a 6yr 100% interest free loan up to £25K on a used EV. That might swing it!

Oh, and I’ve just discovered due to my rural scottish location I’m eligible for grants of £400 off the cost of a charger at home

Having just come back from holiday on the coast of Argyll and seen quite a few properties with EVs and home chargers I realised EV is a great option in places like this where the nearest petrol station could be 20 miles away and would require a special trip to fill up vs always having a full battery in the morning.

Anyone running an MG4 for V2L and via solar? Am with the family in Oz and they’re considering this route.

If you want to look at long term maintenance then there isn’t so much difference modern ICE and EV’s.  Stuff like brakes, suspension are the same.  I’ve owned an EV long enough to not be very worried about battery degradation, and I don’t miss oil changes, kaput clutches, broken gearboxes, cam chain changes and rattles etc etc.

The bit I don’t like is incar electronics, control panels, etc etc etc.  But you’ll have just the same in a modern ICE car.

However…. You’re likely to get the discs and pads lasting waaaaay longer on an EV, due to Regen braking.

I don’t think the mechanical brakes have been used on the polestar for months!

DrP

Agreed – does your car ever not do the regen braking thing though when the battery is at 100% charge? It’s supposedly to prevent overcharging but is rather scary when unexpected.

Probably… But I only ever charge (bar the odd long journey) to 90%… Plus..it’s a hill from my door, so I typically lose a few % before I’d need to brake anyway!

DrP

Picked up our 2022 Zoe today – first EV for us. Charging point installed tomorrow. Time to jump in the deep end…

@edukator. reading your post above, since we have the ‘uprated’ socketry on our Zoe (we were given a choice of “rapid charge” enabled or not) we can access the Tesla charging network?

Yes, any car with a CCS socket can use the open superchargers,  download the app, enter your details and a card. The superchargers that are open to all cars will show up in red. When you arrive at the supercharger select the site in the app, plug in the car before you select the charger number then launch the charge. In the UK we used the superchargers in Bristol Park way, Solihull sevice center and Cambridge.

Have fun with the little car. It’ll probably need new tyres before long because the OEMs don’t last long – try high-load rated crossclimate+ ; they last longer, grip better on anything other than a perfectly dry hot road and make negligible difference to the range.

Up to 45,000 miles on CrossClimate 2 tyres on a Model 3 LR and it’s still not below 4mm either end. Doing my head in – need to get below 2mm in the next three weeks and despite flooring it away from the lights on every opportunity they’re refusing to wear out.