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If my maths is right that’s 2.2 miles per kWh which is about twice what my Hyundai uses, although I drive at 70 rather than 75.
I think so. My suspicion is Hyundai, Kia, Tesla (and presumably some others) have worked their way to better efficiency over time, while Jag's first effort seems to have been off the (i?)pace on this front. I'm sure it'd be a nice car though.
Thanks for the info on the i-Pace, I'll mention the efficiency to him.
Not sure it will matter too much though my mum and dad are retired, have a driveway and the longest trip they do is about 100 miles each way (to see family on the west coast), and that would be once a year.
Well, it depends on your view. On Octopus Go tariff my costs can be as low as 1p a mile, so 2p is hardly breaking the bank. However, if you look at it from an environmental perspective all energy is precious, so it seems a little irresponsible to simply waste energy.
Heavy SUV EVs are so much less efficient than car shaped ones, which is bad for range as well as economy/environment. On another forum recently someone reported that their Tesla Model 3 was getting 2.5 miles per kW IIRC while towing a small caravan. That’s better than an Audi e-tron normally gets in day to day use. The Jag isn’t a lot better.
That’s better than an Audi e-tron normally gets in day to day use.
I only get that low in winter months when the Mrs is driving with the heater blasting out. During the summer I’ve been getting 2.6 to 2.7 daily and up to 3.1. I drove 270 miles last week to the west coast of Scotland, boot loaded up and air con all the way, It returned 2.8. Of course they’re not as efficient as a hatchback but they were never going to be. But they’re a damn sight better for the environment than the Q7.
@Drac I completely agree about it being better than the ICE alternative. I was just using it as an illustration of how different types of EV compare. It’s clearly not surprising given the size, weight and aerodynamics, but just something that gets surprisingly little attention. To use your example, I drove to the Lakes five up with a week’s holiday luggage in my Model 3 and averaged 4.1 miles per kW. Less in the cold obviously.
Anyway, the main thing is electric miles are better than ICE ones, so I’ll get out of my arse 😁
Just looking at my UVO app out of boredom and this past month my Kia soul which is about as aerodynamic as a brick has done.
Energy consumption 214.91kw
Average consumption 7.77kw
Driving Distance 1670km
Recuperation 150.70kw
And that's a mix of driving country roads, dual carriageways, and a bit of motorway.
I was just using it as an illustration of how different types of EV compare
Yeah certainly one of the considerations. As someone who was a not a fan of SUVs I’ve became a bit of a fan. The space inside being the biggest appeal now my kids are older and their hobbies have changed.
As someone who was a not a fan of SUVs I’ve became a bit of a fan.
I’ve managed to resist and persuaded them to pack light - but purely for selfish reasons.
EV ignoramus here so help is required.
I'll be buying a new to me car in the next 3 or 4 months and having been adamant that I wanted a small petrol engine, I'm now looking at EV's or hybrids.
The main usage will be a 90 mile round trip 2 or 3 times per week to work, mainly A-Roads and the odd bit of motorway. It'll also get the odd bit of short journey work on the weekends, and 3 or 4 longer trips (200 miles each way ish) per year.
At present, work don't have charging points, though that may change I can't rely on it.
So questions:
For this usage, is an EV a sensible idea? Or am I better off with a hybrid?
Is 200 miles feasible on a single charge? Or will I need to stop half way?
Charging infrastructure, I see plenty of points in cities, but less in the country. If I head to the Lake District for instance will I find a charging point?
Thanks all.
most modern (<2 year old) EV will do 200 miles on a charge no problem. Older teslas will manage it too, most other older cars (leafs etc) won't make it. 90 mile round trip should be fine in most cars, but again there's some exceptions with things that are a bit older with more limited range that might struggle in winter.
A BMW i3 94Ah (2016+) with REX will do 200miles on a single charge and 9l of fuel.
Yep, I’m giving serious thought to an i3 94ah Rex next. Can minimise fuel use to almost nothing, charge if you can on long trips but no bother if you can’t, just do frequent petrol topups instead.
Plenty of current affordable cars will do over 200 miles WLTP but that’s not the same as a rainy winter 70mph motorway trip. The cheaper older stuff definitely won’t (watch out for pre 2018 cars using the even more optimistic NEDC rating).
I have every confidence doing 200+ miles in my
egolf (140ish WLTP), I just factor in time for charging and I’m willing to go off the motorway for it. Gridserve taking over the services chargers is excellent news, although we’ll see how well supply keeps up with demand.
As for Lakes, the Booths in Ulverston, Keswick, Windermere, Kendal all have 4x Instavolt rapid chargers now. Carnforth/Penrith branches both have two. Several more with other providers, and dozens of slower chargers mostly at hotels and restaurants.
Don't get an I3 Rex.
Unreliable, poor handling and you'll never use the motor you're carting around the whole time!
Get the "big" battery one and just fast charge as needed. The network is expanding rapidly, so for a few times a year that's really not a problem. Take a look on Zap map or use abetterrouteplanner to input your current typical long range journey and see where the chargers are, filter by >50kW fast chargers only.
(I3s 42kWh owner here..... 😉
OP do you have the option to install off street charging at home? If not using public chargers only is possible but a PITA.
A modern EV with a 60kWh or larger battery will easily do 200 miles but I guess if you are buying used and want to keep the price down you'll be looking at older Nissan Leafs and Renault Zoes which might not do that espcecially in winter. I'm sure our resident Zoe and Leaf experts will be along shortly to advise you better than I can.
Also be aware that older Leafs and Zoes will have Chademo rapid charge connectors which has been overtaken by CCS as the de-facto rapid charging standard connector in Europe so in the future there will be less and less chargers with Chademo capability.
As for charging. Have a look at zap-map or Plugshare and check out the charging situation for the parts of the country you regularly travel to. Most is OK however mid-Wales is a charger desert at the moment.
OP do you have the option to install off street charging at home? If not using public chargers only is possible but a PITA.
That’s not the case for all. It depends where you are and access to chargers. For me it’s simple, I’ve one near by and just check on the app or pop down.
older Leafs and Zoes will have Chademo rapid charge connectors
Zoés have always been Type 2 and the latest ones have the option of CSS in adition to Type 2
As for range it depends mainly on how and where you drive. In both our previous 41kWh Zoé and the current 52kWh we've averaged the claimed range in Summer and 10-15% less in Winter. However, driving at the autoroute speed limit of 130kmh, which is as fast as they'll go, empties the battery in a trip to the coast (about 120km), completely in the 41 and mostly in the 52.
Just read this article about the dangers of charging an EV in a garage overnight, because if something bad happens, it can escalate very quickly!
Somewhat lower risk than using a clothes dryer or dishwasher overnight then. Or having lights in your ceiling, or charging your mobile phone. I ride with two insurance bods who have a really good idea of the most dangerous electrical appliances and your electric car isn't one of them.
https://www.insurancequotes.com/home/most-dangerous-appliances
Don’t get an I3 Rex.
Unreliable, poor handling and you’ll never use the motor you’re carting around the whole time!
Utter bollox. I've owned one since new in 2016 and the the only part of the car which has gone wrong in 50k miles are the top mounts which are common on all i3s. The Rex is 120kg including fuel and gets another 90 miles. The bigger battery one gets you another 40-50 miles while costing a lot more and is actually heavier than the 94ah REX. Having test driven both the 94AH REX and the 94AH BEV, I couldn't tell any difference in how they performed.
The REX gives you a ton of flexibility. We've driven to Cumbria from Bath (330 miles) with only a single stop which you wouldn't dare do with a 42.2KW BEV as you'd be arriving in a location with very few chargers and almost no charge remaining if any at all. As it stood, we did just under 200 miles on the first battery and fuel load and 100 miles of battery on the second before switching to the REX with 30% remaining in the pack. We arrived with the flexibility of both systems having partial capacity. You can start the rex at 75% charge and totally deplete it if you know you can charge at a destination or you can leave it to activate at 3-7% in an auto mode.
it also gives you the confidence to use ALL the battery range which you wouldn't do in a pure BEV just in case the charger was busy/broken/slow when you got to it.
Early 2014 60Ah REXs had problems but this was all sorted out.
If you are happy with a certified jerry can in your BMW Rex the range is whatever you are prepared to carry. Which legally is a hell of a lot whatever you might read to the contrary.
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My wife’s ID3 finally arrived just over a week ago. First impressions are really good. Great little car and seems to be very frugal even compared to the Tesla. We upgraded to the heat pump, bigger alloys and the go faster stripes on the side.. and maybe the colour (can’t remember). Only slight bug is that I don’t think one pedal driving is really possible even driving it in ‘B’ (high regen) mode.. and reverse gear is a bit all or nothing! Especially reversing up our slight incline of a driveway.. it creeps like an ICE auto in reverse quite a lot. Are there any other ID3 drivers on here that can comment on this please?
Cheers
Nice. Moonstone grey is free but it’s a good colour IMO.
I’m guessing the auto-hold on the electric handbrake is similar to most VWs and wants switching off for manoeuvres like reversing uphill.
Somewhat lower risk than using a clothes dryer or dishwasher overnight then. Or having lights in your ceiling, or charging your mobile phone. I ride with two insurance bods who have a really good idea of the most dangerous electrical appliances and your electric car isn’t one of them.
I take it statistics wasn't something you taught?
Pure numbers are meaningless, how many more kitchen appliances are there than electric cars, what's the percentage share per total number of households?
As for lower risk, you're conflating lower likelihood with lower risk. Risk is actually calculated as likelihood x severity, the severity of a hob fire is many times less than a battery fire which can burn for 24h and one manufacturer has advised it's easier to just let it burn out than try to fight it. Hence the manufacturers concerned advising customers NOT to keep electric cars indoors (risk mitigation).
Cheers @simon_g. Yeah moonstone grey that’s the badger 👍. Hadn’t even thought about the auto handbrake so will have a look at that see if there’s any tinkering in the settings. Thanks
All going well we are getting a Tesla M3 at the start of September, can’t wait!
seems to be very frugal even compared to the Tesla
Surprised to hear you say that. All the reviews I’ve seen seem to think VAG are miles off the efficiency pace compared to Tesla and Hyundai/Kia. How many miles have you done and what’s the miles per KW?
You're teaching your grandmother to suck eggs and making a fool of yourself, squirrelking. You and Countzero are on the wrong thread to provoke anything other than shaking heads here.
It was the same when people started to install solar panels on their houses. The antis dreamed up all sorts of horrors based on exceptional events limited to one brand of product and tried to frighten people.
In my underground car park GPL vehicles are banned but not electrics.
As for advice from "manufacturers" to "NOT" park indoors, that's the GM Bolt I assume. I'll be delighted to read any links you can provide from any other manufacturers. Norway has A LOT of EV charging in car parks under properties.
You’re teaching your grandmother to suck eggs and making a fool of yourself, squirrelking.
Oh aye, so do you work with risk calculations in your day job? Oh that's right, you're a retired teacher and water technician who likes to pretend he's the font of all ****ing knowledge.
Every time I hear this song it reminds me of you.
Can't ever be wrong about anything.
Still, feel free to continue giving me opinions and viewpoints I never offered. Never said I was anti-EV, just anti-bad maths. You made the arse of yourself here, not me. Your main error was linking to an English publication rather than hiding behind French to try and look clever. Don't do that, the look doesn't suit you.
Hence the manufacturers concerned advising customers NOT to keep electric cars indoors
There's one manufacturer I'm aware of and it's well publicised, the GM bolt which is the subject of a recall. Your 's' at the end of manufacturers says several so I'm keen to know about the others.
You rubbish my appraissal of the risk presented by storing an electric car inside with much reference to 'statistics' (a word I haven't used and you're putting words into my mouth again). Present some statistics then for us all to enjoy.
Your xenophobia becomes apparent again, you always raise the issue of my nationality when you're swearing at me.
Stats, yeah, I did those too. The 'water technician' published his work in the Journal of Environmental Management, presented the project on national TV and was well respected in his field before doing other things more lucrative and more motivating. Because even when environmental scientists are right (the usually are) people (especially people in power) don't want to listen because doing something would be inconvenient.
You can do something: if you run a car make it an electric one, it'll reduce your carbon footprint and won't poison people you drive past.
I was just perusing this thread, as I do from time to time, and can't resist a poke.
if you run a car make it an electric one, it’ll reduce your carbon footprint
Yes, that's true, but not by much (especially considering how drastically we need to cut our CO2 to avert the Climate Catastrophe).
Manufacturing an EV takes much more energy, dominated by the battery pack. A good approximation is 100kg CO2 per kwh of battery capacity, and I'll take a 100kwh battery. That's an extra 10,000kg CO2 that was generated in the production of an EV.
How long does this take to pay back? Less in France, assuming you count your > 70% nuclear power mix as "renewable". Longer in the UK, which apparently now emits 0.233kg CO2 per kwh (and again assuming that nuclear is renewable and zero CO2).
Assuming an EV with 0.3kwh/mile, that's 0.07 kg CO2 per mile
Assuming a 40mpg petrol car, that's 8.8 miles per litre of petrol. A litre of petrol produces 2.4kg CO2. Adding 30% for well-to-tank CO2 costs, that's 3.1kg CO2 per litre or 0.36kg CO2 per mile
Each mile driven in an EV in the UK therefore saves 0.29kg CO2, compared to an old petrol car like the one I have. You'll have to drive 35,000 miles to pay off the manufacture of that battery pack.
If we compared to a diesel car, and got 60mpg, the 2.6kg CO2 per litre of diesel and 24% well-to-tank CO2 costs works out at 0.25kg CO2 per mile. Your EV battery payback period is now 55,000 miles.
and won’t poison people you drive past
Obviously, CO2 emissions are not everything, and I really can see the benefits of cycling to work without sucking in diesel and petrol fumes (I personally don't drive diesel, only because I resent others inflicting those fumes on me). Saying that, I would not like to live near an electronics recycling facility.
Seems to me that "halve the amount you drive" is much simpler advice that would achieve the same goal.
As you were.
Obviously, you're not home and dry after paying back the manufacture of your EV battery pack, and continue emitting CO2 at a rate determined by your local energy mix (0.07 kg CO2 per mile, in the UK).
Your xenophobia becomes apparent again, you always raise the issue of my nationality when you’re swearing at me.
No, I raise the issue that you can only conveniently find French articles to support your arguments despite you being British born. I couldn't give a single solitary **** what your nationality is but if you're going to argue point at least have the decency to do so in the lingua franca [/irony burn]
As for your "statistics" you presented a load of meaningless numbers regarding kitchen appliance fires as some sort of rebuttal to electric vehicle fires. Thats absolutely statistically relevant but you got caught with your trousers
well and truly round your ankles balls deep in a sheep. Deal with it.
.
Don't get personal you look like children.
Anyway, this is pretty big IMO. Nissan dropped prices (in the US) by 13.5% for 2022. Same car, now cheaper. It's now only $20k which is pretty damn good.
https://insideevs.com/news/524536/us-nissan-leaf-prices-2022my/amp/
Nissan struggle to sell them in the US but need to sell EVs in some states to be able to sell ICE there. Often hear of crazy cheap leases or things like giving them away with pickup trucks.
The US doesn’t like hatchbacks and the EV nerds have mostly moved on to Teslas but Nissan doesn’t have anything better to offer yet.
We're looking at estates and keen to make the jump to an ev. Went and tested the mg the other week, seemed pretty basic as new cars go but Price, boot space and roof rails (new long range version has usable ones) all ticked boxes. Do keep then wondering about plug in hybrids though, the Skoda's are lot nicer more modern feeling cars but is hybrid half arsed? Whilst the short battery range would cover most shorter trips I could imagine getting lazy and not charging it, reverting to petrol all the time as it won't be enough to change the way you approach journey's in the same way I imagine an ev would
I was just perusing this thread, as I do from time to time, and can’t resist a poke.
OK I'll bite
A good approximation is 100kg CO2 per kwh of battery capacity, and I’ll take a 100kwh battery.
Agreed but as we decarbonise electricity production we also decarbonise battery production. For example a batteries made at Tesla's Gigafactory Nevada using a large amount of solar have an embedded CO2 of 62kg per kWh.
Assuming a 40mpg petrol car, that’s 8.8 miles per litre of petrol.
Recent data from real world fueld economy figures from Spritmonitor.de indicates the figure is more like 36mpg.
Seems to me that “halve the amount you drive” is much simpler advice that would achieve the same goal.
True but that only gets you half way and EV manufacture will continue to decarbonise. Plus its probably going to be easier to get UK drivers into EVs than to get them to half their mileage.
Agreed but as we decarbonise electricity production we also decarbonise battery production.
In that case, as more and more EVs are built, it's incredibly important that they are manufactured from CO2-neutral power sources. Otherwise in the short term, everyone will be emitting more CO2, as they work through the "CO2 payback period" of their EV. Unless we only buy EVs from carbon-netural sources, it seems that they will make the current Climate Catastrophe worse, not better (assuming that we all need to cut our CO2 right now).
Plus its probably going to be easier to get UK drivers into EVs than to get them to half their mileage.
Given that combatting the Climate Catastrohpe is all about hard choices, I don't see that as a problem. If the government can mandate a switch to EVs, it could also legislate a more sustainable (and less car-dependent) lifestyle. It wouldn't take much - new housing and commercial developments could have a target for % of essential tasks that can be done without a car. Cycle infrastructure could be designed and built by people who actually care about being able to use a bicycle as a substitute for driving, instead of people who only want to complete the requisite number of bikelane miles. Or maybe add a requirement that bike lanes must actually go somewhere, and "the edge of a difficult and dangerous junction" not being an acceptable destination.
@pedlad it looks like the ID3 has averaged 3.6 mi/kWh in the 220 miles since it was delivered.
In Tesla money that’s 278 wh/mi but I tend to use more than that and average around the 300 mark.. so it is actually doing better than the M3P.
Now there are other factors at play here.. the Performance doesn’t have very aero wheels like the ID3 and I sometimes have the bike rack/bike/roofbox up top but more often than not it’s just the naked car. My model 3 missed the standard inclusion of the heat pump the newer ones get. I’ll be monitoring the ID3 over time.
A further factor is my wife’s lead foot and habit of driving too fast whilst also stressing about range 🤷♂️ (I can see exactly where she is and what speed she is doing on the app!) But this will average out across the cars as we regularly drive each other's.
There is no mandating of EVs by the government though, twrch, just incentives which clearly aren't enough given current uptake. There need to be incentives in other areas too.
My first holiday this Summer was a train to Paris then winding our way 1445km back home on Bromptons, which have some embedded carbon on too. We stayed in 19 campsites of which only one had solar heated pool and showers. About 180km were on cycle paths, 25km trails, 250km cycle routes on roads and the rest on the quietest roads on the map. Yes, more cycle infrastructure and renewable energy would be welcome. The main incentive behind the cycle paths we did was tourism and the economic benefits thereof.
This holiday is in Zoé. 10.9 kWh/100km so far. A camping holiday horse riding, canoeing, mtbing, walking, swimming... with public transport would be nice. As it is all the kit only just fitted in Zoé. Society is currently built around cars and a road network. I'll use that system in the absence of anything better with the least filthy car available.
If you only read stuff in English you'll only get one view of the world, the anglo-saxon one. Not all the wisdom in other laguages makes it to English news sources, unfortunately. Google translate works so well I fail to see the problem with linking stuff in any language.
Google translate works so well I fail to see the problem with linking stuff in any language.
But it doesn't always work, especially with technical language. That's my main objection.
Lots of foreign articles are printed in English, similarly English is the Forum language so its not really asking much to use that in discussion. It wouldn't be half as bad if it wasn't near on every single article you link to.
I was serious though about the statistical relevance of that insurance article you linked to, it doesn't take percentage share per household into account so whilst 7 battery fires for Tesla may seem small, as a percentage of total sales it may be more statistically relevant than it appears. It also doesn't take into account the severity of a battery fire which, as I pointed out was the other half of the equation hence GM advising not to keep charged or charging cars indoors as the risk was high enough to require mitigation.
Finally regardless of your personal remarks directed at me I was out of order with the personal remarks back, sorry for that.
Fact is (French article not linked) EVs catch fire less than ICEs.
Most STWers seem quite happy with links to foreign stuff, I always post visible urls so people can chose to open or not. No links to conspiracy theory nonsense hidden behind text from me.
There are several STW regulars in many EU countries. I got to 14 without thinking too hard and many more irregular members. One of the delightful things about this forum is the diversity of veiws from Germany, Spain, Belgium, Austria, France, Sweden... . If you want to go anywhere in Europe there will be someone on STW to help you out with local knowledge.
Tbh I'm jealous of the ease with which you move between languages. Overseas links are no issue for me. Good to see an alternate pov and I'd recommend bing translate over Google 👍
Fact is (French article not linked) EVs catch fire less than ICEs.
I'm not disputing that, what is of greater relevance is of those ICE fires how many have spontaneously combusted whilst parked up as a %? I'm very aware it happens on occasion so there should be figures out there to answer the question. The next question is how does that compare to the incidence rate of BEV fires?
There are far, far less BEV's on the road than ICE's so those fires are of greater statistical relevance if you're comparing like for like.
There are several STW regulars in many EU countries.
I know, that's still missing the point that the ligua franca is English.
FFS! ST`FU!
There is no mandating of EVs by the government though
The only reason so many manufacturers are switching to hybrids and EVs is that the EURO emissions regulations make it harder and harder to make an ICE car, and ultimately will make it impossible. Even us in the uncultured UK apparently will have a ban on new petrol cars in 2030. I'm not sure how you can say there is no mandate, when that is precisely what is happening.
If you only read stuff in English you’ll only get one view of the world, the anglo-saxon one.
I deal in facts and figures. The lingua franca of science and research is English.
I’m not disputing that, what is of greater relevance is of those ICE fires how many have spontaneously combusted whilst parked up as a %? I’m very aware it happens on occasion so there should be figures out there to answer the question. The next question is how does that compare to the incidence rate of BEV fires?
Arguably a ICE fire just needs bad luck (parked up after extended drive, football or something rolls underneath and wedges against the exhaust) whereas for a BEV to catch fire a significant number of safeguards would have to fail.
ICE fires how many have spontaneously combusted whilst parked up as a %
I've had this happen. Bought a car that had recently had its exhaust done. Drove home late one night, parked it up and went to bed. Had a phone call 30 mins later from the fire brigade who wanted to get into it as there was smoke pouring out. They got it out and it turned out that when the exhaust had been fitted some underbody insulation was disturbed, some of it was touching the exhaust and after a long drive followed by a stop it got hot enough to catch fire.
I've owned maybe 20 ICE cars so I'd say theres a 5% chance of it happening 😉
BMW M3 on the M4 last week. Front end completely engulfed in flames. Starter motor stuck on?
Ferrari 458…
Almost 3000 McLaren’s recalled over fire risks…
Battery fires are more dangerous, but should start to become even rarer as battery management becomes better.
BMW have recalled various models over recent years due to fire risks, it was too late for my Uncle’s the recall came soon after. BMW hybrids have been one of the models.
As an aside, we keep seeing quoted figures of a carbon payback in miles of EV over ICE, but what is a good number here? Between the lines I read the implication that 50k miles or whatever is not good, and I don't get it.
Any number here that's less than the car's life denotes a car that's emitting less over its life. The numbers we see tend to be about 1/3 of a car's design life, and my experience of their actual life is similar. Of course I'd like this number to be as low as possible but we're well over the hurdle that justifies the manufacture of the EV over the manufacture of the ICE.
FFS! ST`FU!
@drac I've made my point regarding language. Fine.
If your problem is with me calling out bad use of statistics and risk calculation then sorry but no.
Everyone else - I never said ICEs don't have similar issues, I'm asking what the percentage is that spontaneously combust and questioning whether it's more, less or the same as BEVs.
Between the lines I read the implication that 50k miles or whatever is not good, and I don’t get it.
Any number here that’s less than the car’s life denotes a car that’s emitting less over its life.
Yes, it is probably better that over its entire lifetime, an EV emits somewhat less CO2 than an ICE car. However, it's not exactly a drastic reduction, and combined with a whole different set of environmental issues (mostly focussed around the sourcing and disposal of the battery pack and all the other electronics), I think it's at least up for debate that owning a petrol car (especially one with no bells and whistles) and driving it less is better for the environment, overall.
However - as I pointed out in my older comment - if it's absolutely essential that we immediately cut our CO2 (as I am assured is true), then buying an EV doesn't achieve that goal. It might take 10 years to drive the necessary 50,000ish miles, and until that point, you have emitted more CO2 compared to someone who doesn't own an EV.
On the subject of fires, my BiL is a fireman and was telling me how electric cars are a real problem for them as they don’t have the tools or methods yet to deal with when they get damaged in crashes. and once they are burning, really hard to put out.
I’m sure they’ll work it out but a bit of a grey area at the moment.
a whole different set of environmental issues (mostly focussed around the sourcing and disposal of the battery pack and all the other electronics)
Before long it will all be recyclable. It will have to be - we'll be sitting on a big pile of valuable materials whilst seeing high demand for those same materials. There'll be a way.
However – as I pointed out in my older comment – if it’s absolutely essential that we immediately cut our CO2 (as I am assured is true), then buying an EV doesn’t achieve that goal. It might take 10 years to drive the necessary 50,000ish miles, and until that point, you have emitted more CO2 compared to someone who doesn’t own an EV.
It doesn't slash emissions immediately, no. But it is a necessary step to e sure lower emissions in the future. And let's not forget not all EVs are bought as greenwash. You can buy one to replace a worn out (or crashed) car and you can drive it very little and you can keep it 20 years. They aren't exclusive.
I think to compare apples with apples we're talking about a new car coming onto the road, with a given expected annual mileage, and whatever its expected life is, and comparing between that car being EV and it being ICE.
The need to reduce car use and to reduce the number of cars manufactured and to do all sorts of other things remains regardless.
In light of that, one should be comparing total environmental impact of the manufacture and use of the car over its life, and picking the best one.
When I did that, I reckoned a comparable ICE car represented 3+ times the carbon emissions overall, when compared with an EV. To me that's a very clear difference, yet it's not out of line with the payback numbers one sees quoted, from which it seems to me that folk don't derive the same conclusion at all.
fireman and was telling me how electric cars are a real problem for them as they don’t have the tools or methods yet to deal with
I went on a fire warden course when I worked at an alloy wheel manufacturer. When the fireman running this found this out he said that when alloys became common place on cars they caused problems as water an magnesium don’t play nicely together.
I’ve made my point regarding language. Fine.
No, it was to do with pair of you starting to ruin a good thread.
Fine, I'll stick to the point as I was trying to in the first place.
As you were...
On the subject of fires, my BiL is a fireman and was telling me how electric cars are a real problem for them as they don’t have the tools or methods yet to deal with when they get damaged in crashes. and once they are burning, really hard to put out.
Tesla make a fire-fighter instruction book. I think all EVs have the same standards (cut-points for 12v system under the bonnet on the passenger side).
Don't think there's anything you can do for a lithium battery fire but try to cool it down and let it burn itself out.
Will be interesting if in the future it leads to major road closures for days at a time if they can't move the cars.
Before long it will all be recyclable. It will have to be – we’ll be sitting on a big pile of valuable materials whilst seeing high demand for those same materials. There’ll be a way.
Maybe, although as it is currently cheaper to use newly-mined minerals, the fact that it will take those minerals becoming more scarce for recycling to become viable means that the cost of a battery pack will increase. It's very hard to extract the lithium from a lithium battery, and most places that currently try to recycle those cells don't bother trying to get the lithium back.
It doesn’t slash emissions immediately, no. But it is a necessary step to ensure lower emissions in the future.
Excellent, then I have 10 years to find a way to cut my transport emissions by 60%, and you have 10 years to find a way to live without your AMG shooting brake 😉
I think to compare apples with apples we’re talking about a new car coming onto the road, with a given expected annual mileage, and whatever its expected life is, and comparing between that car being EV and it being ICE.
My maths works out regardless. It would be interesting to work out the relative CO2 emissions if the ICE in question were a very small car with no extra toys. It may be that someone driving an old Mini or Fiat 500 - sized car, with no extra bells and whistles, emits less CO2 over the lifetime of the car than someone driving a modern EV.
It’s very hard to extract the lithium from a lithium battery
I don't think lithium is the scarce part of the battery, is it?
Excellent, then I have 10 years to find a way to cut my transport emissions by 60%
Not sure what you mean here. We need to both reduce our collective mileage AND reduce the emission of the fleet. Remember the EVs sold now will be around for 15-20 years, or preferably more if governments get their acts together. And let's also not forget that the only reason they are available now is because people are buying them new instead of ICE cars.
and you have 10 years to find a way to live without your AMG shooting brake
4 days left on the 28 day warranty period 🙂
OK then, Twrch, present your maths for all to see.
My old Mini 850 used about 8l/100km and went to the breakers at just short of 160 000 km on its original engine which was exceptional. So that's 12 800l of petrol + the resourcrs to build it. The Zoe weighs about double but won't but won't burn around 10 tonnes of fuel. In fact given where I live it won't burn any fossil fuel. A better comparison for your maths is the Dacia Spring.
My most recent petrol vehicle, a Dacia Lodgy averaged 5.8l/100km and weighs 1.2 tonnes for a 7 seater car.
There are now muliple studies to demonstrate that EVs always beat ICEs on lifetime resources/CO2 even in China and Germany with their high coal use in electricity production. Article BFM.
I don’t think lithium is the scarce part of the battery, is it?
There are other minerals in a lithium battery that are more scarce. However, lithium is absolutely essential (unlike cobalt, for example - a cell can be designed without it, for various performance tradeoffs). It is not particularly scarce, but still difficult to process and purify. You either have to dig an enormous hole, as the concentration is low, or pump up huge amounts of lithium-containing brine and let it evaporate.
It then takes an enormous amount of water and energy to convert the lithium to a format suitable for use in batteries.
Even so, this is still easier than trying to extract lithium from used cells, and that is due to the chemistry involved, and not due to scale. The most economical current method is "pyrometallurgy" - basically, burning them. It only recovers the cobalt, but it's still more economically viable than trying to leach out the lithium by other methods.
Not sure what you mean here.
I pointed out that a new EV will leave you in "CO2 debt" for around 10 years until you've paid off the manufacturing cost of the battery pack. If that's ok, then I can keep going as I am, as long as I've got a plan to reduce my emissions in 10 years time. Maybe I'll switch to a motorbike. They take much less energy to manufacture, and get much better mpg.
Maybe I’ll switch to a motorbike. They take much less energy to manufacture, and get much better mpg.
a vast majority of second car use cases would be better served by motorbike/moped
how ever by their own admission most road users will tell you - not a ****ing chance on these roads ...... and i see their point.
I pointed out that a new EV will leave you in “CO2 debt” for around 10 years
Ok but if a new car is required, and there is no old one to maintain, should that new car be ICE or EV?
Ok but if a new car is required, and there is no old one to maintain
looking at autotrader we are a significant way off that hypothetical plenty of sunk CO2 to be used and for the technology to mature.
Some more numbers: 265 000 domestic fires a year in France for 29 000 000 households. 1/4 is an electrical fire, 80 000. 22% of those is a clothes drier - 16 000 clothes drier fires. 1/3 households has a clothes drier so roughly 10 000 000 clothes driers
16/10 000 clothes drier fires.
600 000 EVs and plug-in hybrids
You'd expect 900 chargng fires from EVs and plug-in hybribs a year to match the clothes drier. We have single figures, too few to figure on the list of causes.
This is important Drac, there's too much anti-EV propagander and it's important to back up assertiions I've made with facts when they are disputed. In your job you are well placed to k'ow and assess risks.
OK then, Twrch, present your maths for all to see.
I already did, showing that you are in CO2 debt for 50,000 miles (or maybe 10 years) after buying an EV, and demonstrating that buying an EV will not immediately cut your CO2 emissions (in fact they are worse, in the short term). As we are constantly being told that we must cut CO2 right now, I pointed out that buying an EV will not achieve this goal. And if I actually have 10 years to do this, I have that much time to adjust my lifestyle to achieve the goal without demanding the extraction of all sorts of minerals and a huge input of manufacturing energy and resources to do so.
In fact given where I live it won’t burn any fossil fuel.
Yes, you are lucky to live somewhere that is so extensively powered by nuclear power. If only we didn't keep decomissioning existing sites at astronomical cost here in the UK, and cancelling new nuclear projects.
Ok but if a new car is required, and there is no old one to maintain, should that new car be ICE or EV?
Depends. Can the planet handle increased CO2 emissions in the short term, if you buy an EV?
Tesla claim that they can recycle 92% of a battery cell, so there must be other methods than burning them.
Tesla claim many things, including being able to make money from your Tesla by renting it out as a robo-taxi by 2020.
Yes, there are methods which will recover a higher % of the original cell, but as I said, they are less economically viable due to the chemistry invovled, even though they recover a higher percentage of materials.
Do you agree that buying a new ICE is worse than buying a new EV now Twrch given that both cover the same distance over their lifetime?
It's important to compare apples with apples with apples and a new ICE is more harmful long term. Cut down now by all means, ride you bike bit don't buy an ICE unless you know it will be scrapped in less than Whatever mileage is EV payback where you live. Unless you have a terrible accodent record that's almost nowhere according to BFM.
don’t buy anbrand new ICE
an important distinction in the current scenario which will become less relevent as time progresses.
Still EV curious and have considered one previously.
What does it cost you to do say 100 miles in electric. I think it's 20p a KWh at the moment, do you apply for a cheaper charge rate at night ? I say this as my current home leccy use is incredible (hot tub and two gaming PC's in use). My petrol does about 30 to the gallon in town - so minimum cost is about £21 per 100 miles in fuel.
Both me and MrsF are WFH, but in work 2-3 days a week from September. A small EV is a consideration over and above our conventional cars - mine's 19 years old, but hauls 4 bikes round.
The thinking is we might get one as an additional car for local stuff/commuting, and keep the petrols for long distance.
The other thought is stuff it, keep the old cars, and buy a Nissan 370Z or something as daft for weekends (not green).
Other complication, we're both not likely to be working same days - we car shared before the pandemic. If not working same days, I'll commute on my MTB down the canal more (25 mile return), so EV arguments are getting less 'positive'.
I agree with your distinction, Trailrat. If you do less than 3500 miles/year a small second-hand petrol car is no worse over 10 years. But a second-hand EV is even better and the seller is more likely to have replaced with an EV.
Whoever bought my old Zoé got a car with zeo defects apart from xorn front tyres and no measurable loss of battery capacity. I slow charge to 90% when possible.
Can the planet handle increased CO2 emissions in the short term, if you buy an EV?
What's the alternative, how do we get them on the roads without short term carbon emissions? Are short term carbon emissions better than long term ones? If you say no, then we'd never be able to build any solar panels, heat pumps, wind farms, nuclear power stations, fusion reactors, or any of the useful stuff.