The effect of a Scottish Yes vote on the rest of the UK?

Anyone remember where we par Trident and all those people spend their wages?

billions on white elephant rail networks

Large Hadlon Collider – 17 miles of tunnel reaching 570 feet underground, having been described as ‘one of the great engineering milestones of mankind” cost £2.6 Billion pounds.
Edinburgh Tram project – Only just over half as long, around 8.7 miles, reaching 0 feet underground , and acknowledged as ‘ one of the great engineering millstones of mankind’ cost £1.1 Billion

The Edinburgh Trams have almost as much relevance as **** Darien Scheme ffs

The relocation of a large part of RBS/HBOS down south (or at least to Newcastle)

WRONG! the head of RBS said

“This is a technical procedure regarding the rotation of our registered head office based on our current strategy and business plan. It is not an intention to move operations or jobs”.

BBC website

The money spend on Trident/Wars etc leaves this country (UK) and goes to the US as Trident is a US missile system we bought from them. Ergo – get rid of it, no more payments.

EDIT – Edinburgh Trams was a City of Edinburgh Council led project not a Scottish Govt one, and now that it is in place, it works. It works UK or iS, money/cost won’t change.

whatnobeer – Member

The Edinburgh Trams have almost as much relevance as **** Darien Scheme ffs

That’s a bit harsh, they’re quite good if you want to get to the airport.

Yeah, but the Large Hadron collider creates miniature black holes, we can literally explore what it means to experience the end of the universe

The Edinburgh tram takes you to Leith… 😉

I’m wondering if, about 10 years after a yes vote, we will see the highlands and islands arguing for greater devolution/independance because scottish policies are seen as too Glasgow/Edinburgh centric.

10 years, give it 10 minutes, Shetland are complaining even before a ‘Yes’ vote.

The money spend on Trident/Wars etc leaves this country (UK) and goes to the US as Trident is a US missile system we bought from them. Ergo – get rid of it, no more payments.

Not all of it, a lot gets spent designing, building, maintaining the Nuclear Subs which all happens in the UK, employing a lot of people.

konabunny – Member
Konabunny how do you think that just because she is no longer in Scotland that this vote will not affect her on a daily basis…A typical ignorant viewpoint. It’s like saying your less Scottish because you don’t live in Scotland at the moment.

It will not affect her on a daily basis because she does not live there and does not work there. What happens in Scotland really doesn’t affect people who live in England,

What utter nonsense, you may not have noticed, but our currently just devalued as a result of this garbage. Then the absolute con, letting 16 yr old kids vote yet expat Scots that might have a bit of sense and might want to return to something that resembles the home they love don’t, it’s despicable.

That Man is an utter chancer, a snake oil salesman and you folk are foolish to be taken in by him.

Beat me to it Ninfan. See also the money spunked on the parliament building

The money spend on Trident/Wars etc leaves this country (UK) and goes to the US as Trident is a US missile system we bought from them. Ergo – get rid of it, no more payments.

What about the jobs at HMNB Clyde?

Those bases only really exist on the scale that they do to support the subs.

They employ a lot of people directly and even more indirectly.

I am not suggesting that SSBN’s are the most efficient job creation schemes, however, once they close the immediate effect on the surrounding area will be dramatic. Ask anyone who lived in Dunoon during the 90’s and what happened when the US Navy left.

The money spend on Trident/Wars etc leaves this country (UK) and goes to the US as Trident is a US missile system we bought from them. Ergo – get rid of it, no more payments.

I’d like to see some actual figures of how much of the Trident money (and those other things you mentioned) stays in the UK, both in terms of original outlay and maintenance/staffing.

See also the money spunked on the parliament building

Who built it? Where did the materials come from?

regardless, Trident (more accuratley the entirety of the nuclear deterrent) is only about 6% of the overall defence budget

I am not suggesting that SSBN’s are the most efficient job creation schemes, however, once they close the immediate effect on the surrounding area will be dramatic.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the submarine bases stay where they are for the time being.

rUK will just lease them form the Scottish government.

Are you suggesting the English are ignorant, unproductive and lazy?

No. However some of you are incredibly paranoid and manage to turn any discussion into an anti-English one.

What about the jobs at HMNB Clyde?

520 jobs according to the MOD. Not thousands.

Is that people at the base itself only ? Or does it include all the local industries/businesses who rely upon the base ?

What local industries and businesses who rely on the base?

There isn’t a wee cottage industry of nuclear bomb repairmen in Helensburgh, happily tinkering with warheads in their sheds. HMNB Clyde buys very little from the local economy.

http://www.nuclearinfo.org/article/uk-trident-operational-berths/ministry-defence-reveals-just-520-faslane-jobs-depend-trident

The base needs food, cleaning, maintenance; the engineers need supplies etc.

HMNB Clyde buys very little from the local economy.

How do you know?

No. However some of you are incredibly paranoid and manage to turn any discussion into an anti-English one.

Not really. Your post clearly suggests that the population of Scotland is “above average”.

520 jobs according to the MOD. Not thousands.

520 well paid secure jobs. Plus hundreds more employed as contractors, for maintenance, diving services, tugs, support craft.

How many pubs, shops, hotels will stay open in Helensburgh if the subs went?

What about the house prices?

The base is at the heart of the local economy around that whole area west of Loch Lomond.

520 peoples jobs directly on trident (ie. the missile system) not the entirety of the nuclear deterrent and the nuclear submarines, which are co-located for obvious reasons

The base needs food, cleaning, maintenance; the engineers need supplies etc.

Yes, and these are bought by Babcocks etc from other large national or multinational companies. They don’t nip down to the local Co-op to buy their bog roll.

HMNB Clyde buys very little from the local economy.

And a hell of a lot less when we build a nice new base in England (wales maybe) so another plus for the rest. There must be a few government call centres up there too that can be closed. I wonder if there will be a Scottish Embassy in London?

I worst of the possible impacts is if the start any stupid corporate tax rate crap to get nameplates over the border.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the submarine bases stay where they are for the time being.

rUK will just lease them form the Scottish government.
I agree with @somewhat this will be the solution for the medium term at least.

Not really. Your post clearly suggests that the population of Scotland is “above average”.

Well someone has to be 😀

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/278036-scotland-most-highly-educated-country-in-europe-ons-report-shows/

HMNB Clyde buys very little from the local economy.

Probably not.

However, the workers who get their income from it do.

Seriously though, saying Scotland is good is not the same as saying England is bad.

The 2012 MoD budget was £35billion in total, so Scotland’s share was around £4billion

That £4billion has been spent many times over, even if Scotland sacks everyone and turns bombers into ploughshares

(Oh, but hang on, Clyde shipbuilding is guaranteed, as have been the jobs at Leuchars and Arbroath)

It doesn’t add up.

However, the workers who get their income from it do.

Probably not an awful lot – 520 people, quite a few of whom are contractors who don’t live locally anyway, can’t spend all that much in the local stores.

Certainly not enough to justify keeping a hugely expensive and immoral weapons system.

We could give every single worker £1m per year to sit and play X-Box instead, and still save money. It’s the worst job creation scheme ever.

Yes, and these are bought by Babcocks etc from other large national or multinational companies.

And where does that get sourced? Seems likely that much of the money stays in the UK, or even Scotland.

It’s the worst job creation scheme ever.

It’s not a job creation scheme, but I’m suggesting you look beyond headline cost figures.

The basic question you guys need to ask yourself is- does Trident return more to the Scottish economy than it takes out. I don’t have numbers but it seems incredibly unlikely (if it does, we should build some more!) Pointing at corner shops and saying “Hey, the base employs cleaners” doesn’t add up to billions of quid. Then you need to contrast that with the contribution to the local economy that basing the surface fleet there will make- nobody’s talking about leaving an empty hole where the navy used to be.

Everything we spend in the UK creates jobs and returns money to the economy; the question on that is always, is it an optimum return. Is the peacetime divident of Trident better than spending the same sum on more surface boats, or creating jobs in hospitals and schools…

Personally, I’d be totally content with the idea of leasing Faslane and Coulport to the UK government indefinitely- best of all worlds in my book, we get rid of the bill for the white elephant and the bad karma, but still get the jobs and the money. But not everyone is that prosaic about it.

It’s not a job creation scheme, but I’m suggesting you look beyond headline cost figures.

I do – as I’ve said many times, getting rid of Trident is an overwhelming moral imperative. The cost savings are just a bonus.

But would the rUK create a Guantanamo prison within those leased bases?

Personally, I’d be totally content with the idea of leasing Faslane and Coulport to the UK government indefinitely-

it is one solution and the Russians and US do it all over the world – why don’t we open it up for offers… 😉

On the other hand we should close it for a period to find out what the likelyhood of oil is off the west coast…

I do

Hmm.. well your original post mentioned quite a few projects where the money was ‘wasted’, and you seemed keen to simply focus on the headline costs. It’s almost as if you are being disingenuous to try and boost your own argument.. hmm..

Trident really is decent enough IMO for the deterrent (<5 % of the yearly NHS budget). Considering cheap borrowing is based on having a stable country etc. then it will help offset the cost.

Clyde shipbuilding is guaranteed

Has AS seriously promised this!!!! FFS!!!! No chance.

BAE only survived because the MoD built the T45’s and most of the carrier work was done there.

Then you need to contrast that with the contribution to the local economy that basing the surface fleet there will make- nobody’s talking about leaving an empty hole where the navy used to be

White paper suggests the total size of the Scottish Navy will be about 2000 personnel- thats a pretty big empty hole compared with the 6,500 plus RN and Civilian staff currently employed there.

Does Scotland think it doesn’t need a nuclear deterrent because rUK will still have it and so covered by that?

I can supply them with an derrent just as effective as Trident for 20% of the price, just as long as they promise not to open the box.

mudshark – Member
Does Scotland think it doesn’t need a nuclear deterrent because rUK will still have it and so covered by that?

No we think we don’t need one because no-one is going to nuke us.