The difficulty in discussing religion on the forum

A lot of people brought up atheist seem to have a pretty sparse knowledge of the history of religion, the contents of the bible, and the views of any particular church either historically or today.

I can’t say I have any experience of being brought up atheist. My childhood in the late 50s was what would be considered normal. I went to Sunday school, eventually the big church at which point the vicar took my big sister to one side and suggested he didn’t think I was ready yet. I think this had something to do with teaching her to wink during prayers. I really don’t remember any of this, it made no impression on me at all. My sister was confirmed, I said I didn’t want to be. By the time I was at grammar school I was quite definitely a non-believer. It simply isn’t something I’ve ever felt the need for and I’m quite sure it’s a construct. A way to explain the inexplicable.

I don’t mind not knowing things. It doesn’t bother me that I don’t understand the origin of the universe or indeed of time. There will always be things we don’t understand and that’s interesting, not frightening.

Some see the Fibonacci number as a mathematical incidental. I, like many before me, see it as indicative of a divine reality.

It’s stuff like this I don’t understand. Why would you see it that way?

I may be skeptical and dismissive about many beliefs, but when we are talking about human natureI’ll be the first to admit there is much ‘truth and beauty’ inspiring (and inspired by) ‘spiritual’ philosophy.

But what is spirituality? There are certain things that to me, even as an atheist, imply spirituality. Certainly art and in particular great music. But that’s just a shorthand for the impact these things have on us, how they make us feel. In reality, there is nothing divine about these experiences.

Some see the Fibonacci number as a mathematical incidental. I, like many before me, see it as indicative of a divine reality.

See, immediately I ask what is ‘divine’? In this context? I wonder, do you ask that same question? Which begs the next question – ‘why’?

Then I ask – do so many of us (throughout history, slowly decreasing now) see nature as ‘evidence’ of a ‘maker’ – because it’s our collective experience that we ‘make’ things? That we are ‘made’ (via father’s sperm) and are born, so then figure rather simplistically that it must also be so with the Universe and all things – that something must be ‘made’? That it must originate from a ‘father’? (Or ‘mother’, for that matter)?

I have found that here that atheists have been almost vicious in the way they converse to and about people with belief and see it as the root of all evil

I’m pretty sure that’s it’s just 2 or 3 vicious people. I’d probably say overly blunt and lacking in empathy, rather than vicious, but they’re very much Dawkins rather than Tyson or Shaha.

the vicar took my big sister to one side and suggested he didn’t think I was ready yet. I think this had something to do with teaching her to wink during prayers. I really don’t remember

(Begs forgiveness for laughing at imaginary typos)

#PointlessThreadsThatClearlyArentWorthBotheringWithOnSingletrackworld

This is one of them.

And that other one.

#PointlessThreadsThatClearlyArentWorthBotheringWithOnSingletrackworld

This is one of them.

And yet you still took the time to comment. Well done.

I know what you mean some folk tell me I will burn in hell if i disagree with them and dont do as it says in a book that they have faith ins ……imagine that level of intolerance eh.

The simple thing is there are atheist arseholes and religious arseholes. I am pretty comfortable you are an atheist who isn’t of the arsehole variety and whatever the hell I am I hope I am not not an arsehole too.

But what is spirituality? There are certain things that to me, even as an atheist, imply spirituality. Certainly art and in particular great music. But that’s just a shorthand for the impact these things have on us, how they make us feel. In reality, there is nothing divine about these experiences.

Yeah, words eh? Even the word ‘divine’. I did put inverted commas around the word ‘spiritual’ – it seems to have so many definitions, and those definitions have subtly jostled for top place (for me) over the years.

‘Spiritual’ broadly implies (for me) an elevated/altered psychological state, and/or any work derived from such. Dunno about ‘divine’? I’ve variously described diminutive antipodean pop stars or a suprisingly perfect pudding as ‘divine’

Regarding the word ‘spiritual’ – I would certainly suggest that particular works and words carry extraordinary influence, variously inspired, often imparted via parable. Some music/certain art, some words, carry me away with their beauty and humanity.

Back to the OP – One of the great difficulties in discussing religion/spirituality is semantics. It seems we are reluctantly bogged down by varying definitions. Not like science, where definitions must be clear, unambiguous.

I don’t do this to try and change people’s beliefs. I do it to try and get people to consider other people’s points of view, and to be nice.

That’s because you are a good guy – certainly if your posts here are anything to go by. It’s the dogmatic, dyed in the wool, narrow-minded arseholes that are the problem. They are exist to dominate and lambast and stamp on people they believe are different to themselves. It makes them feel better.

Thanks JJ 🙂

I know what you mean some folk tell me I will burn in hell if i disagree with them and dont do as it says in a book that they have faith ins ……imagine that level of intolerance eh.

You mean this one?

😉

I think the point I have got to in life is that I’m not sure I care if there is a supreme being/source of all realities or not; or whether humanity will or can understand the science behind all facets of our existence We make our own sense of our reality and meaning to life and most decent, good people have boiled this down to a few simple elements. Many cultures and faiths have built entire books around it. At STW it is simply Rule #1. Don’t be a dick. I find it hard but I try every day to adhere to Rule #1. Let’s just do that 😉

Rule #1. Don’t be a dick.

Precisely what I think too. In fact all laws could be repealed and replaced by that one simple ideal.

As my all time hero Frank Zappa would have it “Whatever you have to do to have a good time, let’s get on with it, so long as it doesn’t cause a murder”.

. They are exist to dominate and lambast and stamp on people they believe are different to themselves. It makes them feel better.

It takes a special type to be rude whilst moaning about folk being rude.
Oh the irony.

It takes a special type to be rude whilst moaning about folk being rude.
Oh the irony.

Sorry Junky. I think you have got completely the wrong end of the stick here. I am talking about the truly intolerant. You, correct me if I am wrong are quite happy for people to believe what they like or not as long as it does not impinge on you or your freedoms. This is totally reasonable. There are some who can’t abide people being anything but as they are and put them down. That is a very different thing. To my mind the one thing it is not wrong to be intolerant of is intolerance.

Just for absolute clarity Junky. My point was not aimed at you. I find your position on atheism and religion articulated reasonably and well.