the demise of decent customers (lbs content)

I live in New Mills, High Peak

A couple of lbs around here are really good and friendly

One shop that isn’t too far away is useless, despite a lot of stw people raving about it

I always try and get my stuff from an lbs if I can, despite being out of work and properly skint

I did however try almost all my lbs for a rear hanger, and none of them stocked it, and one shop even told me to go and buy it online elsewhere

What i don’t think is fair is using the LBS to try stuff before you buy, its just not cricket as they say.

Well, it’s not Cricket; it’s Capitalism. It’s an economic system based on exploitation! A bike shop exploits people by charging a premium on the prices they’ve paid, it’s just that as customers we accept that this form of exploitation is reasonable.

I admit I feel a bit guilty for trying stuff with no intention of buying it from the shop, but only for a moment. And as I’ve said, it’s no different effectively to trying stuff on in different shops, then only buying from one.

Recently I needed to get the right size for a replacement helmet that I was about to order. How could I determine the right size without trying one on? And where could I do so? The only option was a bike shop. I did at least tell the bloke serving me, what I was doing, and apologised, but he was fine about it. As agents for that particular brand, they were doing their suppliers a little favour. Personally, I think maybe there should be an option to get the replacement from your LBS, surely woon’t cost the supplier any extra. I dunno.

Where I work (not a bike shop):

[*]Customers will ask for unjustifiable discounts
Expect you to bend over backwards to help them
They’ll expect you to work at risk for a few weeks
They’ll want everything done yesterday[/*]

Why should a bike shop be any different? It’s just a business surely?

My experience of bike shops is that they rarely have the components I want in stock, so there I might as well save myself 20 quid by getting it online. When I do need something in a hurry, I’ll pay the extra for the convenience of getting from the shop (e.g. a gear cable).

The only exception to the above is when I buy a new bike, if I try a bike and have seen good service, then i’ll buy it from that shop. However if I get rubbish service (e.g. having to pay to demo a bike – that really grates) then I’ll probably go elsewhere, even if I like the bike.

Good example of this, is Moutaintrax in Wokingham, they bent over backwards to help me when picking a new bike (and afterwards for that matter – dropping different weight spring off to my house, despite it being 10 miles out of their way, so I could have a well set up bike for my holiday). As a result of that I’ll probably end up getting a new bike from them next year, and I’ve pointed several mates in their direction as well. Conversely I’ve experienced a few less than stellar bike shops, who I won’t spend any money with and will actively sl4g off to whomever will listen… I guess what i’m saying is that I expect good customer service even if i’m not a regular customer, and if I don’t get it i’ll go elsewhere…

These things are far from mutually exclusive.

I concur, i found highly ironic that people are ok to pay for skill courses (or for a matter have very limited bike handling skills) but not to support a communitarian (spelling?) bike shop which (adv?) could provide tips on the riding.

CharlieMungus – Member

And with regard to the idea of a market, yes you are right it is a market. But you need to shop with a thought about the consequences. There maybe an analogy with bookshops. Where most independent bookshops used to stock a large number of mainstream titles, at RRP, which allowed them the margin to also stock more alternative titles. Places like Borders and even more so Tesco then focus only on the mainstream titles, stack ’em high and sell ’em cheap, make smaller margins each but make up for it in volume. So the LBS (local book shop) no longer has the custom which makes up the bulk of their sales and they close. And now you can only buy books which have been approved by Richard and Judy or Oprah Winfrey. The same will happen with bike shops if we are not careful. We’ll be left with Evanses and Wiggles etc. Our local shops will disappear and the money we spend will leave the local area, perhaps even the country.

Charlie, you do know that Borders went bust don’t you? Just it kind of ruins your argument – especially when there are still some good local book shops (generally in smaller towns). The comparison is not very good anyway since I’ve never needed to take my book in to be repaired. There actually seem to be an increasing number of LBS (here anyway) as Cycling increases in popularity – and they seem to be focussing on real bikes not the cheap childrens bikes that many shops relied on for revenue when I was a kid.

poly – could you help me buy emailing me on mdownie@thebikechain.co.uk so i can try and resolve the matter for you. As a small shop and as the owner it pains me to think we didn’t do something properly for you. If you are the chap from saturday then i am confused as i think i did my damnest to point out it was the wrong bike – if this was another incident then we need to address that promptly. Your feedback will be very useful. We always need to improve and your 1 out of 100 experience will help this.

We aim to give the right retail service and provide a fairly competitive web experience as well (something that is taking off for us in a good way with the products that we can run a business on) we do this on products that we can actually make a margin on and not run around like busy fools…

I have builders in and am working on a tethered phone on my laptop (power off in the house) so being on the web is tricky – my phone does email and uses less batts.

Don simon makes an fair point.

Lbs service at an lbs price
internet service at an internet price

The trouble is so many of us get Crap service at an LBS price.

I mostly buy online because of crap service from bike shops. I too have had experience of “the book” and also “bike shop time” in which “Tuesday” doesn’t mean next Tuesday, it means any Tuesday in the future and probably some months into the future because my order will be in “the book” which only yields up its secrets according to some occult timetable, if ever.

I mostly fix my own bikes too because of crap service from bike shops. Shame, I would love to have a good relationship with a lbs, I spend a lot of money on bikes and cycling ephemera.

I saw some of the salaries offered for bike shop managers. Now considering they’ll be selling kit into the thousands paying a manager peanuts is ridiculous. I remember speaking to one ex-Manager who told me about the hours he was expected to work for 25k a year. **** that.

I doubt bikeshop staff get much more than the basic/minimum salary either.

Not much incentive yet they are expected to show ‘love for their hobbie’ (with one day off in the week to ride.

poly – could you help me buy emailing me on mdownie@thebikechain.co.uk so i can try and resolve the matter for you.

Mark,

Thanks for showing the interest in sorting this out – I’ll email you later today. This is not the place for a “discussion” like this anyway and I’m not trying to disuade anyone from using The Bike Chain.

Charlie, you do know that Borders went bust don’t you?

No, it didn’t. They closed up in the UK. But that further supports my argument. That the come in, undercut the LBS so that many have to close. Then when they stop being as profitable as they need to be, the close up and move out. Meanwhile all the LBS and their stock have gone and strtup costs are high

Just it kind of ruins your argument

Really? Wow, you’re very literal with arguments, what if I had a said ‘a large chain’ or Waterstones, or if you had read the bit where i said ‘Tesco’?

– especially when there are still some good local book shops (generally in smaller towns).

Yeah, they would only be local if you live in that smaller town. And how many people live in a ‘smaller town’? Go on, the clue is in the question!
…
That’s right! that’s what makes it small.

The comparison is not very good anyway since I’ve never needed to take my book in to be repaired.

Oh dear, so literal. How about if we say that the shop sells you a product, be that a repair or a book or a bicycle?

There actually seem to be an increasing number of LBS (here anyway)

N=1 Great!

as Cycling increases in popularity

Ah, that would be why

– and they seem to be focussing on real bikes not the cheap childrens bikes that many shops relied on for revenue when I was a kid.

That’s good

Apologies, this might take a while but just got back from a quick blast.

LAT – Member

A lot of what has been said above, on both sides of the argument, is pretty spot on.

DS’s point about service matching is quite amusing. I don’t know if he is 100% serious, but what I understand from his controversial stance is that some people demand good service from a retailer while not wanting to pay for it. There aren’t many things in life that come for free, though that isn’t an excuse for shop staff to be rude to the people who walk through their door.

Something that may not be too widely known, and that is key to this debate, is that the on-line prices for the parts and brands that keen participants of our pass time like to have are virtually identical to the trade price that independent bike shops have to pay. It isn’t uncommon for on-line shops to be selling parts at below trade prices.

Apologies if these point have already been raised – I didn’t have time to read beyond the second page.
Yes, I am being serious about service match- watch this space.
Internet do have a clear pricing advantage and don’t offer any real service on a par with the shops.

Thats exactly the problem I’ve had with LBSs in the past, the take it or leave it attitude of staff who are trying to charge me more than elsewhere, explain to me exactly why I shouldn’t just leave it and go elsewhere?

It’s tour money, you choose. What is your price comparison based on, see above.

Claiming to give worse service to customers

Show me where I said I’d offer worse service, you do understand the concept of “service match” don’t you?

Seems to me that Don Simon can’t really own a shop. He may work in one, where dicking a customer around makes no real difference to him.

Apologies, this might take a while but just got back from a quick blast.

LAT – Member

A lot of what has been said above, on both sides of the argument, is pretty spot on.

DS’s point about service matching is quite amusing. I don’t know if he is 100% serious, but what I understand from his controversial stance is that some people demand good service from a retailer while not wanting to pay for it. There aren’t many things in life that come for free, though that isn’t an excuse for shop staff to be rude to the people who walk through their door.

Something that may not be too widely known, and that is key to this debate, is that the on-line prices for the parts and brands that keen participants of our pass time like to have are virtually identical to the trade price that independent bike shops have to pay. It isn’t uncommon for on-line shops to be selling parts at below trade prices.

Apologies if these point have already been raised – I didn’t have time to read beyond the second page.
Yes, I am being serious about service match- watch this space.
Internet do have a clear pricing advantage and don’t offer any real service on a par with the shops.

Thats exactly the problem I’ve had with LBSs in the past, the take it or leave it attitude of staff who are trying to charge me more than elsewhere, explain to me exactly why I shouldn’t just leave it and go elsewhere?

It’s tour money, you choose. What is your price comparison based on, see above.

Claiming to give worse service to customers

CharlieMungus – Member

but he actually goes out of his way to give poorer service.
Show me where I said I’d offer worse service, you do understand the concept of “service match” don’t you?

Seems to me that Don Simon can’t really own a shop. He may work in one, where dicking a customer around makes no real difference to him.

I have a very close relationship with my customers and I do not dick them around, but equally I won’t be dicked around by a customer. I put a bit of my sales history above.

The whole thrust of Don Simon’s argument (imo) is that people should, where possible, shop in their lbs even if it costs a few quid more. Fair nuff so far whether you agree or disagree.

No, the thrust of my argument is to pay a fair price for a fair service.

But how in the name of God is “making the customer wait” going to bring in more trade or convince them that lbs is better than online?

How in the name of god is giving my stuff away a good business plan? 🙄

theyEye – Member

Don simon makes an fair point.

Lbs service at an lbs price
internet service at an internet price

Not that difficult really, was it? 😆 😆

And I didn’t have to explain the basic concept of supply and demand. 😉

poly – could you help me buy emailing me on mdownie@thebikechain.co.uk so i can try and resolve the matter for you.

THIS is what lbs SHOULD be doing. THIS is customer service. THIS is a desire to help and resolve a problem/misunderstanding. THIS is what is going to keep lbs alive and tempt me to buy from them not online. NOT Don Simon’s “I’ll delay your delivery”.

I live about 400m from a bigger and better known bike shop in Edinburgh who frankly have pretty average stock and pretty average prices (although staff always helpful to be fair) but I’ve never been across town to Bike Chain. I will be from now on.

CharlieMungus – Member
but he actually goes out of his way to give poorer service.
Show me where I said I’d offer worse service, you do understand the concept of “service match” don’t you?

I meant poorer in comparison to your normal service. The stuff arrives and you hold on to it for a couple of days. For no good reason, other than that they asked for a discount. That’s going out of your way and the service is poorer than normal.

Seems to me that Don Simon can’t really own a shop. He may work in one, where dicking a customer around makes no real difference to him.

I have a very close relationship with my customers and I do not dick them around, but equally I won’t be dicked around by a customer. I put a bit of my sales history above.

A phrase like “I do not dick them around”, should not have to be qualified with a ‘but’. Besides, having someone’s stuff and not telling them it has arrived, or surely on occasion lying* to them when it has, is dicking them around.

*If someone gets the ‘long stand’ treatment and happens to enquire, on the off chance it may have arrived, what do you tell them?

I have no doubt you sales history is great. But if you are so sure that you are being fair to your customers and have no case to answer, why don’t you tell us what your shop is called and where you are.

was out riding nr Cardiff with on of my best mates this past weekend..

we were talking about LBS vs online…

think the issues are two fold:

1. The rise of the internet, in the early 90’s I bought all my bike stuff from Dave Mellor cycles… he sold all I needed and instead of getting cash for saturday boy work, he just took money off my tab.

2. There are so many more ‘specialisms’ in cycling now… back in the day your choices were limited.. road bike or mtb… suspension forks – 3 brands and only one fork each in each of their ‘ranges’

now there are so many different types of cycling that doubt any shop could afford to keep stuff to suit all needs.. thus big online places with lower overheads can stack stuffed to the rafters in a big crinkly tin shed and cater for all..

I get 90% of my stuff from online places, 5% from evans / cycle surgery but only with price match and 5% from local lbs – but then for things like cables or cleaning spray…

would like to buy more from LBS they are a nice shop and helpful, but often shut when I’m near it as still at work (not their fault) and on line ordering is quick and convenient.

Just the way of the world I suppose.

But how in the name of God is “making the customer wait” going to bring in more trade or convince them that lbs is better than online?

How in the name of god is giving my stuff away a good business plan?

Who asked you to give it away? Just a bit of respect and less attitude.

I don’t really care about the price of 99% of my bike purchases to be honest – what’s a fiver here or there when you’re getting the piece of gear you want and getting it with a smile and a friendly attitude? Example – I drove 50 mile round trip yesterday to drop off my Lynskey for a service. I live in the centre of Edinburgh so have maybe a dozen bike shops within spitting distance yet I took it somewhere that is not the cheapest and I have to go back to get it. I could’ve saved myself £20 in diesel but would rather get good service. Holding kit back on your “service match” – crap service.

don simon – Member

Show me where I said I’d offer worse service, you do understand the concept of “service match” don’t you?

So does that mean you’ll deliver it to my door as well then? Quite often the next day… and with free postage?

In that case, you should be onto a winner as it seems to work for Wiggle and CRC…

;o)

So does that mean you’ll deliver it to my door as well then? Quite often the next day… and with free postage?

In that case, you should be onto a winner as it seems to work for Wiggle and CRC…

😀

😳 sorry for the double post 😳 cold, fat fingers!

Stoatsbrother – Member

Don simon makes an fair point.

Lbs service at an lbs price
internet service at an internet price

The trouble is so many of us get Crap service at an LBS price.

But that is a different arguement and if a shop gives you crap service you are quite right to walk away. Don’t forget that we, as a group, are also quite a bit more demanding than the average Joe because we generally know exactly what we want and won’t be fobbed off with something else.

There are also a few people here who have more knowledge/experience than the most accomplished mechanic, which might not be well received. 😉

But Charlie, you don’t know, as the customer that it’s worse. I was responding to the chappy earlier, let me put it into context.

I have a product X for price Y
Customer L comes in and asks for product X saying they can get it from Internet shop A for price Y-20% and they are in no rush.
a) buy it from the internet (and don’t waste my time)
b) pay price Y and walk away with the product now
c) I hold product X and order one for you, which fits into your timeframe, and let you pay price y-20% (provided I still make profit). Because by selling the product I have on the shelf I am removing the possibility of selling at full retail to the next guy who walks through the door and I win nothing.
You are looking for product X at price Y-20% and have time to wait- you’re happy in that you’ve given a little bit of business to the lbs and satisfied your conscience.
I’m happy because I’ve sold extra product.
And the second customer is happy because he needed the part last minute before going on holiday and the internet couldn’t deliver in time.
I think everyone is getting exactly what they want, no?
Not and everyday occurance.

I don’t work in a shop.

“Support your LBS” is firmly in the same territory as “act fair in the spirit of Ebay”

Both are crock.

To the title:

the demise of decent customers

Surely a decent customer to a bikeshop is someone who puts money in their till repeatdly.

Surely a decent customer to a bikeshop is someone who puts money in their till repeatdly.

Without wasting time asking hundreds of inane questions, trying on stuff they have no intention of buying and never bringing biscuits in! 😉

My LBS is awful for customer service, and renowned for it. I’m amazed they’re still in business.

I drove to Leeds (I live in Sheffield), to get better customer service.

Good customer service is worth paying a bit extra for.

Surely a decent customer to a bikeshop is someone who puts money in their till repeatdly.

Bingo, so long as your still able to make a profit, returning custom is all you can ask for. At the end of the day, the customer is always right, even when they’re wrong 😉 . All you can do is advise.

Without wasting time asking hundreds of inane questions, trying on stuff they have no intention of buying and never bringing biscuits in!

But thats the nature of a shop. Everytime you visit Zara etc do you walk out with something 100% of the time?

I drove 50 mile round trip yesterday …….. I could’ve saved myself £20 in diesel

Maybe it’s time to consider a slightly more economical car?

and never bringing biscuits in!

so bike shops have to be bribed into being any good ?

so bike shops have to be bribed into being any good?

Aye but the ‘centre of the community/hub to the cycling community’ sadly doesn’t except any other payment than cash or credit cards for their goods.

Also look at the Arnold Clark/Car dealership sales tactic: Use the offer of a 20p cup of tea to extract thousands from your customers. Let the customer feel ‘as a friend’.

Then, when you don’t have an income, try popping into the shop thats friend s with you and watch how they treat you after a while of not buying anything….

I don’t have a ‘Local’ bike shop. nearest one is a 16 mile round trip, and the nearest one with decent stock levels and knowledgeable staff is a 50 mile round trip. Which is why I use the ‘net for most of my stuff, and have learned to look after my bike

oh, guys: You’re pretty much re-enforcing Don Simon’s POV from a business stand point, good job some of you don’t run shops, you wouldn’t last long.

People have the right to spend there money where they want. Times are tight and people will generally go for the best financially viable option. This option takes into account time, price, fitting and convenience.

Online suppliers are a good thing and offer another option to people. I can’t see a GOOD LBS going out of business unless it through bad service and poor reputation.

oh, guys: You’re pretty much re-enforcing Don Simon’s POV from a business stand point,

😉

Aye but the ‘centre of the community/hub to the cycling community’ sadly doesn’t except any other payment than cash or credit cards for their goods.

And what’s wrong with that? Do you work for free…?

I drove 50 mile round trip yesterday …….. I could’ve saved myself £20 in diesel
Maybe it’s time to consider a slightly more economical car?

I was reckoning on the 100 mile all in journey to drop off then return to collect – 25 (actually 29) miles each way x 4.

In any event, I drive a Land Rover. I gave up thinking about fuel economy years ago.

Thanks for defining your idea more clearly (for the benefit of the group)… While I think it may (or really, may not) have changed from simply being a grudge, I still think it’s seriously flawed.

If you really want to make a service statement, is there an option to run a bike shop with two prices on all parts. One is price for the part only (to compete with the internet), and the other is a fitted price.

So, for example:

CK headset £90
CK headset fitted £110

I keep missing the part where Don Simon expressed a grudge…

There is no grudge. Please tell me where you see a grudge?
Some people get it, others no. That’s life.

The last direct questions I asked weren’t answered, so please answer this. 😀

You can please some of the people all of the time… etc.

EDIT: You’re still not comparing like with like. 😉

I have been keeping an eye on this thread with great interest over the past couple of days, why? Well….

I am considering opening an LBS myself – DON’T I hear you say! You could be right and this could be the best advice ever, but….

I love bikes! And further more I love working with & helping people to make informed decisions and to meet the needs of the customer.

However, there is a fundamental issue with this….not every customer actually knows what their needs are when they actually go into a shop.

So….

This is where the LBS could really add value! Understand your customer and understand their needs – this way you’ll make the right sale, to the right customer, at the right time for them (and you!).

Every point of every customer that has commented on this thread is actually right….because it is what they feel and/or have experienced. Therefore it is down to the LBS to change this for them on the day that person actually does walk into their shop as a customer.

We are all decent customers (in our own way) and we have the choice to make, online or LBS? Its your choice. But if you become a customer of mine I like many other LBS’s (not all I agree) will do our best to help you.

And what’s wrong with that? Do you work for free…?

No and neither do customers. Not every customer walks in and whacks down a three grand wodge then drives off in his Audi Q7. Bikeshops should understand that cycling enthusiasts earn peanuts too. It took me weeks to decide what colour chris king hubs to have as it was alot of money. In the end Al/Wheelcraft told me ‘yer getting blue/pay me when they arrive’ 😆

I’ve just been to Evans Manchester this evening to sort out a issue on my frame. Saw me on the spot and resolved.

Yes its Evans but I’ve had nothing but good service from them. You’d think everyone slips up in a while and boy have I caught a few. Not that store. I wonder who the manager is and his/her approach (as it bloody works).

I’ve never experienced bad service from anyone in that store either.

This is where the LBS could really add value! Understand your customer and understand their needs – this way you’ll make the right sale, to the right customer, at the right time for them (and you!).

The hardest is probably differentiating between the wants and needs and having the conviction to give them what they need in spite of them arguing about what they want. And after years of experience the hardest word for a salesman to say is “no”, I won’t sell you that because you only want it and not need it. This I’ll admit is more directed to regular customers than passing trade, but I’m more accustomed to developing new territories than anything.

The hardest is probably differentiating between the wants and needs and having the conviction to give them what they need in spite of them arguing about what they want. And after years of experience the hardest word for a salesman to say is “no”, I won’t sell you that because you only want it and not need it. This I’ll admit is more directed to regular customers than passing trade, but I’m more accustomed to developing new territories than anything.

The difference between want & need is usually cost, so rarely will you EVER sell something to someone they actually ‘want’, the trick is to find out want they need and sell to this need – and in my experience as sales manager for the last 20 years ‘this is the ONLY way to sell’.