the demise of decent customers (lbs content)

Thanks for correcting my your -> you’re. Are you always such a pedant, Simon?

You’re trying to remove my profit, I don’t want your business. I have lots of other people who are willing to pay a fair price for a fair service and your contribution to my holiday villa is 0.000001%, so stop wasting my time and go to the internet, fit it yourself and don’t come to me with a warranty claim

Then just don’t take the order in the first place, rather than dicking me around. That would be just fine.

For what it’s worth, 90% of my purchases go through my LBS at way more than CRC pricing. I’ve shopped their (that one’s especially for you to correct) for 20 years and will continue to do so.

But how long will it be before your target market realise they can buy elsewhere cheaper !!!

But not fit or maintain it, look at the “how can I fit a headset?”, “do I need to face…?”, “How do Brand X shoes size up?” threads.

But the demise is from our elevated point of view and not necessarily the view from the bike shop, the punter or the accountant.

I’ve spent the last hour defending myself which I think is a clear example of the type of high maintenance customer the OP is talking about, it’s an inefficient use of time. I’m off for a ride. Have fun. 😉

Then just don’t take the order in the first place, rather than dicking me around. That would be just fine.

But I’m not dicking around, am I? I’ve told you several times from the offset that I don’t want your business, but you insist on telling me that I should take it and that I need it!

You’ve made a good few points but have spent an hour defending (at least with me) a stupid comment, rather than just admit it was a daft thing to say. You remind me of my wife 😉

Enjoy your ride.

All my bikes have come from LBS’s and I’d never try something on in an LBS and buy on-line but I’d say 90% of the stuff I buy is on-line. It’s not so much cost it’s the convenience and the choice (CRC and Wiggle are a lot less hassle to get to than any of the LBS in my area) and I’m invariably disappointed when I do go to an LBS to have a browse for something, there will usually be one model in stock in my size if I’m lucky so I either have to get them to order in other stuff for me to try (with the hassle of having to return days later) or just go online and take a risk.
I can understand the reasons but I also hate the trend of LBSs just supply one make of everything (e.g. all the clothing will be Altura or all the shoes will be Mavic), whilst it does allow them to have more variety within that range it’s so limiting, especially where stuff like tyres are concerned.

Last one, I’ve got work to do too:

don simon – Member

Then just don’t take the order in the first place, rather than dicking me around. That would be just fine.

But I’m not dicking around, am I? I’ve told you several times from the offset that I don’t want your business,

What are you on about? Seriously? You said you would TAKE the order but hold on to it for a few days. If you don’t want my business, don’t take the order. I promise I would not have begged you to take it.

Jesus.

You haven’t said why it’s stupid? I am offering the same price and service as the internet, this is what you want after all. If you want it in your hand now you have to pay a premium, much like the internet shops are now offering.
Regular FREE delivery in 3-5 days.
24 hour despatch you pay extra.

😆 😆 😆

EDIT: I would have told you the conditions before you make a decision. 🙄 the customer is king, right?

Only on the internet could we have people so furiously debating a hypothetical sale … 🙂

I propose half time orange squash and a spell in my back garden making ramps.

I haven’t needed to Simon: you’ve done that yourself.

Go on, get out on the bike and clear the head.

Only on the internet could we have people so furiously debating a hypothetical sale …

Debating is good fun until the insults start. 😆

24 hour despatch you pay extra.

And would probably still be cheaper and more reliable than your average LBS !!!

🙄

There are 3 things that underpin the LBS.
Customer Service
Customer Service
Customer Service

Two god things about the lbs!

Wander in with broken xxxx light just on turn or warranty, no receipt. But did buy from there. Hi erm, it’s broken, can you sort it? Yeah no worries will send it off tomorrow!
Is there any chance I can borrow a demo light to keep me going? Sure, here you go!
Total charge – £2!

And they don’t leave stuff at random places with difficult opening hours that I have to go collect! They are exactly where they were last week!

A lot of what has been said above, on both sides of the argument, is pretty spot on.

DS’s point about service matching is quite amusing. I don’t know if he is 100% serious, but what I understand from his controversial stance is that some people demand good service from a retailer while not wanting to pay for it. There aren’t many things in life that come for free, though that isn’t an excuse for shop staff to be rude to the people who walk through their door.

Something that may not be too widely known, and that is key to this debate, is that the on-line prices for the parts and brands that keen participants of our pass time like to have are virtually identical to the trade price that independent bike shops have to pay. It isn’t uncommon for on-line shops to be selling parts at below trade prices.

Apologies if these point have already been raised – I didn’t have time to read beyond the second page.

You’ve got it in one, I’ve made a couple of small changes, but essentially you’re correct.
You’re trying to remove my profit, I don’t want your business. I have lots of other people who are willing to pay a fair price for a fair service and your contribution to my holiday villa is 0.000001%, so stop wasting my time and go to the internet, fit it yourself and don’t come to me with a warranty claim.
You are one small customer, there are lots of businesses surviving very well without your customer, even though you think it, you are not a cash cow. Sorry.

Thats exactly the problem I’ve had with LBSs in the past, the take it or leave it attitude of staff who are trying to charge me more than elsewhere, explain to me exactly why I shouldn’t just leave it and go elsewhere? I may be one small customer, but if you deliberatly offered worse service, I wouldn’t come back next time, and I’d be sure to tell anyone who asked. Bad reviews spread faster than good ones, unfortunately. Surely a better answer to..

Me: Can you order me something for £xx

Would be..

You: No, thats too cheap for me, I can do it for £xx and it’s in stock now/I’ll give you a discount next time/I’ll fit it/I’ll support that race you’re organizing/I give free cake.

That way, if I decide price is more important, I walk away thinking at least you tried, and were honest with me, or I pay the extra and you get my business, and future business.

Claiming to give worse service to customers in a thread complaining about customers not using their LBS is indeed stupid.

TandemJeremy – Member

I am lucky I guess but we have a number of good bike shops in Edinburgh – the bike chain is the one I suse the most.

Prices for service items pads cables chainrings are near as dammit the sameaas the itnernet price and in stock, big high ends parts they find it hard to compete.

Helpfull and friendly but charge FAIR amount for the workshops – which I don’t mind as you get what yo pay for. TJ – Its interesting how experiences differ – I’ve used many of the bike shops in Edinburgh at some point or other – but was thoroughly dissapointed with The Bike Chain for trying to sell my wife a bike that was 2 sizes too big for her (which they later admitted to me was not selling because it wasn’t a good bike). In general I’d say the smaller the shop the better the service – which is not really surprising: you’re always more likely to get good service from the owner (or at least when the owner is around) and that’s why Herbies at Broxburn and Flyingfox at Alva would get my business.

The stock and skill of a retailer, is where the price differential is

..and where so many fall down. They try to cover too many areas – road, MTB, commuter, kids, etc – in too little space because they think if they exclude any they’ll be missing out on custom. They try to stock several brands too to cover all bases. The place gets filled up with bikes and the other things people would want to buy, especially to look at / try on first gets marginalised to the corner. And while a member of staff might be an expert in one area of cycling, they may have very sketchy knowledge in others.

Have had way too many times buying things like shoes where there’ll be half a dozen suitable models, but only stock in my size of one of them (if I’m lucky). And several times in less experienced days (and before there were Shimano technical docs online) I’d walk out with a part I was assured was right for what I needed, only to be back the next day because it wasn’t. I was also subjected to the most inept folding demonstration of a Brompton by a sales guy who had to get someone from the workshop out to help him.

The good shops I’ve known focussed on one niche and a couple of brands and did well – as they’ve moved into bigger premises they’ve been able to extend their ranges and keep skill and quality levels high. It’s not just buying advice – a mechanic who’s top-notch at preparing MTBs and has a decade of experience doing that may not be so good when you want your bar tape redone.

I can see why the likes of Specialized feel the urge to set up their own shops and get control over the levels of quality, knowledge and stock. Too many of their dealers just do a really poor job of selling their brand.

Seems to me that Don Simon can’t really own a shop. He may work in one, where dicking a customer around makes no real difference to him.

But to deliberately offer poor service? That’s just stoooopid. I know you’ll want an explanation as to why. Well I’ll try, firstly, you’d lose me as a customer. I know, you don’t care you never wanted me in the first place. Though, you will need to explain to me how you know what my future needs will be. Secondly, I will tell everyone what a dick you are. If you think that doesn’t matter, why don’t you tell us which shop you run and where it is? Thirdly, you give other LBSs a bad reputation cos folks think that small operators have no guidelines for their actions.

If there is a significant discount online, some folks, want to try to support their local shops, but it is hard to justify spending and extra £XX pounds on what may be a luxury anyway, so being public spirited they give the bike shop the opportunity for the sale. If that is no good to the shop, then fine.

The ‘make a customer wait’ comment by Don Simon may well be the single most stupid thing I’ve ever heard a retailer say (assuming (s)he’s a retailer)…

+1. I just don’t get this either.

The whole thrust of Don Simon’s argument (imo) is that people should, where possible, shop in their lbs even if it costs a few quid more. Fair nuff so far whether you agree or disagree.

So surely he should be encouraging people to do this? Tempting them away from the cheap online retailers with something else – better/quicker service maybe? Better or more niche stock selection perhaps?

But how in the name of God is “making the customer wait” going to bring in more trade or convince them that lbs is better than online? This is only going to reinforce the opinion that online is a)cheaper; b)better stock selection and c)faster and more convenient (which is DS point I think) and d)has none of the resentful huge **** chip on shoulder attitude that is clearly expressed here! Is this some attempt to “teach the ill-educated customer a lesson”? Surely this is guaranteed to send customers packing and online, or at least to ANOther lbs?

I just don’t get it. Very odd 😕

more good things about lbs’

broke mech hanger on the camino de santiago last month. terminal, to all intents and purposes (well i supose you *could* ride 600km with the mech held on with cable ties and a clothes peg). walked into a bike shop on saturday afternoon, just as they were pulling the shutters down for the weekend. they didn’t have a hanger but hired me a bike to finish the camino on, and stayed well past closing time swapping all my racks and stuff onto it.

another broken hanger, potentially ride-ending. lbs didn’t have one, but again stayed past closing taking hangers from stock bikes trying to get me a similar one.

and is on-line any cheaper? pattern mech hangers for my bike are 15€ from the states, or 15€ genuine from the manufacturer, or 15€ from the lbs….

edit: in spain btw. couldn’t imagine the staff at condor doing the same but you never know…

Poly – i am assuming you were the chap in on Saturday with family. I thought i had made the point clearly that the bike was indeed too big for your partner, Hence why we moved on to the other models available in our ranges that may have been more suitable. I did point out that it was too long and too high and not suitable – if this was not clear then i apologise.

Mark

Have not trawled through all of the previous posts but another vote for the LBS here.

We’re lucky enough to have some fantastic one’s here in Bath.

The best offer so much more than bikes and bits and that is the reason I support all of them: advice, support, a place to chat, tips on local clubs and other riding groups (many from the shop), events (races and family etc), they support local racers, teams even, keep our cycling library, have nice coffee.. 😀

http://www.cadencebikeshop.com/
http://www.johnsbikes.co.uk/
http://www.avonvalleycyclery.co.uk/

Elfin’s attitude us exactly why people in this country treat each other like shit, what a shame. Like already said I hope a bigger dog never crosses your path elfin.

Heh! Really? Ok then.

Sooo….. you pay your staff a decent wage, to reflect their skill, knowledge and enthusiasm for the products they’re selling, right? You always only sell the customer what they ask for, never try to ‘sell up’? Ensure that your services and prices are the best and most competitive around?

Oh, and the products you sell aren’t made using cheap labour in countries with dubious human rights records, and using environmentally damaging processes? I take it you simply take the bare minimum to live on, and donate all the rest of your profits to charity?

Right, ok….

My point is, that it’s a market. As a customer, it’s my choice to exploit that market, to get the best deal. As a bike shop owner will, surely. Do you go to the suppliers who charge more, but have a nicer telephone manner? No, you go to the ones that give you the best deal.

I don’t discriminate between bike shops and other shops. In fact, I actually get better customer service in other shops, truth be told. Bike shops tend to be staffed mainly by bored young lads filling in time until they get something better, or grumpy old gits who know far better than you. Almost all women I know that cycle say they have been patronised by bike shop staff, at some time or another. In fact, women are seen almost as an inconvenience in some bike shops.

Sorry for not jumping on the sycophantic ‘Love your LBS’ bandwagon here, and sorry if my honesty upsets folk, but as I’ve said, I’ll look out for the best bargains and use the resources available to me to get the best deal I can. Regardless of which shop I try something on, and where I then buy it from, the suppliers still get their money.

It’s just that I’ll be polite about it. As, I suspect, many others on here who do the same thing will be…

Don simon makes an fair point.

Lbs service at an lbs price
internet service at an internet price

and that’s just what it is — a perfectly sensible point, i doubt he’d actually do it. And even if he presented me with a choice of paying more OR waiting, i’d be happy.

F-in hate my lbs though. Four weeks and 130 euro to make a brake hose a bit longer?! Never again. And that’s just one instance of a few. I’m an idiot for not catching on sooner. They have a great reputation, undeserved. Now i tell anyone i meet, in my broken italian- ‘padre vanes e un uomo di merda’

All this talk of LBS vs Online made me realise I very often use the third option, the one that nobody can compete with – Other riders!

In my garage I’ve got a drawer full of drivetrain parts, mostly brand new, that I’ve picked up for peanuts. Full cranksets, BBs, Chainrings, a cassette, a couple of rear mechs. Scattered around I have various other parts that have ‘come my way’ and my eBay and STW classifides history is dotted with things I’ve made profit on – Bought silly cheap or given, serviced, and sold on for at least double the money. That’s how I got some Lyriks for £30…. I’ve been given decent stuff and bought other bits (wheels mainly) for simply stupid prices becasue beople can’t be bothered with the simplest of fixes. I’m currently using 2 pairs of wheels mostly obtained like this, and grafted together with a bit of ingenuity. And I’m takling Hope and DT Swiss hubs, not crap. Including the new parts, I’ve paid around £120 for both sets. I could bang just one pair on the classifides and get £150 any day of the week 🙂

How can I do this? Becasue people can’t be bothered to repair, or just too stuck up to use Deore! Simples… 🙂

Don simon makes an fair point.

Lbs service at an lbs price
internet service at an internet price

but he actually goes out of his way to give poorer service.

Elfinsafety,i buy products based on the brand perception/quality before i think about margin….(not a very good business model but i like stuff that sells itself)

its true that i like earning money and am driven by selling stuff but the business also employs and pays for people to live,we support loads(too many) charities we help local riders/schools and go to the odd race as race support…im also on the commitee for building local trails…ive never just seen the shop as a way of making myself rich(cos it wont)

how do you sleep at night knowing that youve got a bike thats made up of unethical products/leather shoes etc?? it did make me chuckle…

Elfin’s attitude us exactly why people in this country treat each other like shit, what a shame. Like already said I hope a bigger dog never crosses your path elfin.

If shops rely for their success on guilt-tripping their customers into buying stuff at inflated prices then their demise is assured. I cannot for the life of me make out the relevance of the dog reference, unless it’s a telepathic dog that can determine his intentions and bite him for being bad ?

Well some people on here should get their head out of their asses. And possibly (can I start a sentence with and btw?) spend more time in a bike shop.

Problem is now people expect everything for anything. I am in excellent terms with my LBS. They have become friends with the time. In no particular order here is a few things I get from them:
– use of the workshop when free, with the help from the mechanics giving me useful tips to make me go faster.
– food, mind you it’s fair as we all tend to meet at the LBS for lunch so different round everyday.
– free coffee (although I buy the sugar as I like mine with half a sugar cube)
– invaluable service and advices (such as warranties, free fitting when i can’t be bothered to do it myself, numerous test rides)
– free labour and sometimes free stuff (samples, test goods etc etc)
– the pleasure to pop in just for a chat (useful when a 4 year old bugger wakes up very grumpy from the car and just won’t walk for at least 20 minutes) whether I am alone or with my girlfriend
– motorcycle part/mechanical advice/road book, mainly because sometimes you have more motorcycles parked outside than bike inside 😉 (and none of this modern plastic garbadges)
– free lending of goods when needed (the GF want to try a super sprint tri. LBS owner has spontaneously offered to lend is very high end carbon road bike) . Sometimes I pop in for a chat and some customers go for a ride. I borrow one of the owner bike and the other kit and of I go.
– free use of the shower after the ride
And much more.
Does it cost me more money than buying online yes maybe a fair amount. Do I care no. Why
Well first I am not going to carry the money with me in the hole. Second because I actually find it to be excellent value for money when I regard the services I get.

Now I am wondering how CRC and wiggle are going to match that?

I’d buy more from my lbs if they were quicker better at maintaing their stock, ‘we can order it on thursday and it should be in within 2 weeks” doesn’t cut it when i can get it next day from crc for example.

Also I HATE some of the bull you get in the sales patter, just tell me facts don’t make stuff up!

And with regard to the idea of a market, yes you are right it is a market. But you need to shop with a thought about the consequences. There maybe an analogy with bookshops. Where most independent bookshops used to stock a large number of mainstream titles, at RRP, which allowed them the margin to also stock more alternative titles. Places like Borders and even more so Tesco then focus only on the mainstream titles, stack ’em high and sell ’em cheap, make smaller margins each but make up for it in volume. So the LBS (local book shop) no longer has the custom which makes up the bulk of their sales and they close. And now you can only buy books which have been approved by Richard and Judy or Oprah Winfrey. The same will happen with bike shops if we are not careful. We’ll be left with Evanses and Wiggles etc. Our local shops will disappear and the money we spend will leave the local area, perhaps even the country.

juan – Member

Well some people on here should get their head out of their asses. And possibly (can I start a sentence with and btw?) spend more time in a bike shop.

Problem is now people expect everything for anything. I am in excellent terms with my LBS. They have become friends with the time. In no particular order here is a few things I get from them:

I think that’s the point Juan. My LBS offers nothing more than a place I can go if I break something today and want to ride tomorrow; and then, only if I buy the part and fix it myself as they have 2-3 week waiting times for small jobs. That’s their call and I appreciate they’re going where the money is, but I’m sure I’ve spent more on bike parts in the last 2 years (and am less demanding) than the average punter buying a cheap bike for their kids.

But life is good like that. If you don’t get what you need from somewhere, you go where you do get it. My LBS will still get occasional business from me for convenience sake but I’ll go further afield or online for bigger purchases. They’re happy because they’re spending time with people that will buy a full bike rather than some parts and they’ll get more workshop revenue from people who don’t know how to do simple fixes. Everyone wins. Hopefully.

its true that i like earning money and am driven by selling stuff but the business also employs and pays for people to live,we support loads(too many) charities we help local riders/schools and go to the odd race as race support…im also on the commitee for building local trails…ive never just seen the shop as a way of making myself rich(cos it wont)

Good on you. I give a fair chunk of my time to helping causes I believe in. As do many people.

how do you sleep at night knowing that youve got a bike thats made up of unethical products/leather shoes etc?? it did make me chuckle…

The same way you do, I’d imagine. Glad I’ve amused you on this glorious Monday Morning.

I accept my comments may seem callous, but that’s Capitalism for yer, eh? It’s about gaining through exploitation, of some form or another.

I’m not talking about a price difference of a couple of quid; I’m talking about when it’s £10, £20 or more. That sort of thing. Like if the RRP on a jacket is £80, but someone online is selling it for £60. Now, if I buy it online, don’t like it and have to return/exchange it, it’ll cost me to return it. I’ll take this into consideration. But I’d like to try it on. So, the bike shop would be a good cheeky option. I’m only doing what millions of others probably do; I’m just admitting to it.

Now, if the LBS offers me exceptional service, I might think ‘hmm, I’ll buy it from these guys as they’ve been so helpful and nice’. Sadly, this is seldom the case, in my experience.

And then there’s the thing where shops close to each other tend not to stock the same brands. So, I’d go to both to try the different options. Is it then out of order of me to only buy from the one shop? Because there’s no difference really, is there? I’d still be trying something on, and then not buying it.

Same with bikes; I’ll go and at least sit on a few, if I want to buy one. Probbly go to a few shops, see what’s available. I’ll still be taking up the staff’s time, won’t I?

Got any bib shorts in atm? 😉

My favourite LBS went bust so I went the mail order and learn my own build etc route after that.

I’ve had some appalling experiences and its seems a common theme- shop staff suggesting parts are worn/need replacing when they do not. Even a shop owner did this to me and since then I’ve not been back to his place nor will I.

Possibly in some places the shop manager has to drive more sales so suggests more replacements etc etc? Local Evans offers good customer service (always has) but I really am scratching my head to think of a bikeshop within Manchester that I trust etc.

Then again, bike shops are businesses. They aren’t centre of the community or a place to socially gather. Anywhere that has a till at its heart is a business at the end of the day so no one should romantise them.

Anywhere that has a till at its heart is a business at the end of the day so no one should romantise them.

Nice. I like that. Quite profound for a Monday morning, Hora! 🙂

Mark,

Its interesting that you think you can identify who I am from the limited detail I provided; that suggests it is not a common occurance – although perhaps also there was a little embarrassment at trying to flog a 44cm frame to someone who is only 5’3″.

I don’t know if you are the shop owner/manager but I’d suggest you look at how you train all your staff so that the message/training are consistent across the company. If you are going to win against cheaper internet sales you need to ensure that everyone in the shop is giving quality advice and that the importance of fit and setup is never forgotten because there is a “bargain” sitting on your shelf.

I certainly didn’t get the impression that if my credit card had come out that you (and your colleage in particular) would have been at all reluctant to take it. The aim of my response wasn’t to specifically slate The Bike Chain however, it was more to point out that service standards are rarely consistently high across all the staff in a shop all of the time.

Elfin, i agree with you to a point, cos im a customer too. What i don’t think is fair is using the LBS to try stuff before you buy, its just not cricket as they say.

TBH its difficult to find a decent LBS – I do have one (as in teh last few years they have stepped up their CS) and I am lucky but I don’t have a big rapor with them as I don’t go in very often. I do buy most of my stuff online and do ALL my own maintenance so I don’t find the need but I do recommend it to someone who doesn’t. I won’t go in to buy something that is 20% more expensive just as I wouldn’t with anything else i.e. electronic items online vs shop prices etc. They are not a charity so I don’t treat them as such – cuts both ways. Thats just the way it is 🙂

What i don’t think is fair is using the LBS to try stuff before you buy, its just not cricket as they say.

+1 – its not illegal but out of order in my book 🙂

Then again, bike shops are businesses. They aren’t centre of the community or a place to socially gather.

These things are far from mutually exclusive. TBC or Bike Treks shop rides for example.