the demise of decent customers (lbs content)

Teflon cables £3 on crc, fancy ones for more, clarks cheapies for £2 depending on the cable quality its not that bad. a quid extra and yo can have it now in your hand.

i love ‘the book’ that bike shops write things in, it must be a portal into another universe, once something has gone ‘in the book’ you know you’ll never hear from it again…

examples: i asked shop X to get some tyres in for me, the order went ‘in the book’ and i never heard anything more about it.

i asked shop Y to build a wheel for me, we discussed hub/spoke/rim options, it got written down ‘in the book’ and i never heard anything more about it.

i was looking at road bikes in shop Z, very keen to buy one, they didn’t have my size in stock, so had to get one in from the distributor, this went ‘in the book’ and yadda yadda yadda.

etc.

etc.

every time i’ve seen something written in ‘the book’ it has come to nothing and i’ve ended up either buying elsewhere or online.

i know / hope it’s people just being forgetful / too busy, and yes, i do feel a bit guilty about eventually shopping elsewhere, but i have a message for all the bike shop owners:

LOOK IN YOUR BLOODY BOOK! – i promise you’ve got about £300 worth of orders waiting in it.

(or just tell me if i’m too ugly to have in your shop – i’ll understand)

LBS’s need to remember they are a business, in order to stay in business you need to offer a product/service people want at a price people are prepared to pay. If you don’t you will die is Darwinism in action. What they should not do is blame there customer for the fact they are not competitive any-more.

I owe no more to my LBS than I do to Tesco.

That said I have started using one of my LBS’s and I quite like them 🙂 I have bought some clothes and shoes etc, but if I had bought the RS revs from them instead of CRC it would have been £150-£200 more expensive, they are nice but not that nice 🙂

Bazzer

If you don’t you will die is Darwinism in action.

Closer to Porter than Darwin. 😆

My LBS is a bit hot and cold. Every 10th visit they do something to make me change my mind but then ruin it for the other 9. I end up driving or riding a few miles to the next closest shop (or even go to Evans/Halfords) rather than buy from them usually (but that helps the other less local BS). The best one was when the manager quoted two weeks to remove a shock bushing which took precisely 30 seconds at the shop down the road.

Generally I won’t put up with disinterested, inept staff in the LBS when I can order ineptly from CRC/Wiggle/Merlin myself and save time. If I want to lose parts in the workshop, I’m also pretty good at that too so don’t need to pay.

i was quoted a ‘3 month waiting list’ to get my bike serviced at an LBS. I’m not even joking. 3 fking month, Thats taking a hypothetical dump in my pocket and giving me a dead leg.

If you’d taken your bike in it wouldn’t have been hypothetical. They’d have crapped in your seat tube. And charged you labour.

I like getting a bargain. But I also like wandering round bike shops looking at expensive bikes and kit.

So I try and spread my purchases between online shops and various LBSs.

Although my last online purchase came from a real LBS (The Bike Chain). Excellent service. I’d recommend them to anyone.

I regularly use 3 three lbs’s and am impressed by them all.

Very grateful to them over the years for sorting warranty replacements, fixing stuff I have screwed up (bb threads to name but one) fixing forks, giving advice sorting out good prices etc.

If the lbs was dead I would survive but life would be harder and more expensive!

Chhers to Cycle Kingdom in Fleet, MountainTrax in Barkham and Nirvana in Westcott. All good, all look after their customers!

i had a woman strop out of the shop because she wanted to try on a pair of assos bibs…she then followed it up by saying she wanted the size right before she purchased online(elsewhere) i said i couldnt help her and explained why…..she left and i waved her off!

If I need owt new, clothes wise, I will have a look in shops, try stuff on. If it’s something I know I can get significantly cheaper online, I’ll politely just say it’s not right for me, leave it and then buy it online.

Cheeky? Probably. Illegal? No.

See, I know many people won’t like my attitude, but to be honest, I’m just playing the system to benefit myself. I really couldn’t care less how well the bike shop is doing, or whether it’s threatened with closure or whatever. To me, it’s just another profit-making enterprise, not some wonderful cosy friendly public service that’s doing me an enormous favour. I treat it the same I treat any other shop or business.

To qualify my seemingly callous and mercenary approach, I will point out that I live in London, where most bike shops are either Evans or Cycle Surgery, with a few Action Bikes and the odd ‘independent’ shop. Very few of the independents are any good, ime. Either badly run, or proper snobbish. Condor can kiss my arse quite frankly, the number of times I’ve been ignored or patronised in there. Did themselves out of a custom frame order from me, because the bloke seemed to think I wasn’t worth his valuable time.

Don’t expect my sympathy for your struggles; bike shops are simply a retail outlet for me, which charge more than their online competitors. Because they know they can get away with it. As for ‘poor bike shop owners’; the two fellers that started Cycle Surgery walked away with a cool few million from their sale to Snow+Rock, I’d imagine. They were hardly skint when they did own it!

Dog eat dog. Darwinism. Etc.

But the LBS is, or more correctly should be, far more than just another retail outlet. They provide a means indulge your pastime/obsession, expert advice (hopefully) and the opportunity to physically see and sometimes try what you may buy. They should be, as the good ones are, a hub for the local cycle community, whether that be supporting a local race scene or simply as the starting point for a weekly ride.

When I lived in London I used to love going down to Recycle for a nose around and a chat. As often as not I ended up buying something as a result of those chats and it wouldn’t have occurred to me to price check. The same was true when I moved up here, until I was (IMO) roundly shafted by being overcharged on a simple job. That particular incident, which was only £30 has cost that shop owner £1000’s over the past 8 years as I have bought elsewhere.

There is a place for the LBS and the sooner some owners and customers learn to appreciate and cater for each other the better.

I really do appreciate my lbs. I make no secret of the fact that I am inept when it comes to mechanical things and am unable to repair/replace anything, apart from a tube/tyre.

They listen to me then I will ask their advice. I do tend to change frames/swap parts fairly regularly and will always discuss the build with them. Their service is excellent, am never talked down to cos I’m a woman, they really will go the extra mile and have supported me when I’ve organised rides.

They also support local events and sponsor riders, including youngsters.

Great service is what sells and they always get some cakes as a ‘thank you’.

+ 1 Billion for C_G’s comments above!

This just makes me feel really grateful that I have a great LBS in Ipswich – Phils Bike Co[/url].

And c_g’s experience is exactly what bike shops should be doing, good customers will recognise that and won’t try to push them out of business by asking for price matching. I’m with the OP regarding Assoss lady and all the other non-loyal special offer hunters, take a hike.

I have a few LBS, I walk in with a smile and hello.

The people who own them or have quality staff also smile and hello.

A few out there are miserable small minded losers!
So I use my feet and shop at my favorites. I don’t expect royal carpet but the difference in walking in my suits or scruffs is amazing.

I don’t buy online unless, and only unless, the part I want is otherwise unavailable.

I have had great customer service out of the shops I use. For example, C&N cycles, I needed a chainring/spyder taken off a bmx 1pc crank. I;d been hammering and swearing at the bloody thing for hours, destroying the chainring in the process. (no loss it was junk anyway) anyway the chap does it for me in less than 10 secs – he has the tools and the technique – and then didn’t even charge me. As a result, I ended up with a couple of inner tubes for a rainy day, as I firmly believe you need to reward and use your local shops. Certainly no online retailer would do that for me. Nor would any online retailer engage me in chat about the old school bmx frame I brought in for a headset, and all other things that make cycle related shoping a pleasure (and not like a shirt for work).

Alrernatively, for my roadie clothing, Geoffry Butlers over the road from where I work – chaps who allow me to try on clothing (and with italian manufacturers, meduim is usually xl or xxl in their sizes). If I had simpply ordered online, stuff would arrive thats too small, and thats a pain I can live without. The markup on a shop price includes stock to try, and their specialist knowledge. Again with shoes – wentto “Head for the Hills”in Dorking – and it was worth the cost to go to a shop who had a selection of products, in all the right sizes for me – had I bought online, I would have ended up with a size too small.

Indeed, with Butlers, they even spent ages with me one day talking about road bikes, when I had made it clear I could not buy from them as I had a c2w voucher that had to go to halfords, but they had what I wanted in stock and were happy to talk to me simply as enthuiasts, ensuringI got the sizing for the c2w bike right. Thats just brilliant – again, a couple of inner tubes sold resulted – but the outcome was that I ended up with my perfect bike, through the skill and knowledge of my lbs.

The stock and skill of a retailer, is where the price differential is – and frankly, Given the cost of online and shop for clothing might onlybe a couple of pints, then on my average wage, I am happy to spend the extra.

One day, when theres no local cycle shops, no one to talk to, no stock to try for size, how will we know what to buy – you never see anything to browse through properly on an on line catalogue, and to keep sending stuff back when its not right is just a joyless pain.

And to elfinsafety, I cant believe you actually try stuff on, and then go and shop on line. That’s just an incredible attitude to take. If dog eat dog is so important to you, for a couple of quid, lets hope you don’t meet the proverbial bigger dog one day in your business dealings.

And to elfinsafety, I cant believe you actually try stuff on, and then go and shop on line. That’s just an incredible attitude to take. If dog eat dog is so important to you, for a couple of quid, lets hope you don’t meet the proverbial bigger dog one day in your business dealings.

Especially as any major bike shop worth it’s salt will price match the interweb. Use them or lose them.

I’ll use a bike shop if there’s a benefit. I don’t see why I should go out of my way, or be out of pocket to “support” them though, its a business, they’re in it for the money, same as I do my job for the money. Its not a charity. If they can’t compete, then surely they’re in the wrong business?

Look at the big picture! Do we really want to do all our shopping online?

One thing I’ve noticed is that whenever I go into any kind of shop these days, the staff are eager to help and can’t do enough. What a change from, say, a year or so ago. Everyone is having to raise their game and that’s good.

I do try hard to use independant shops, ie for meat, CD’s, etc etc. After all, we have to use local independant tradesmen as well don’t we? Can you do all the plumbing, electrics, roofing etc etc?

I wonder if there is some customer selectivity going on in bike shops-customer wants internet pricing,immediate supply of obscure stock,free fitting,unlimited face time,is an arseface-maximum hassle for minimum profit.Piss em off subtly,they don’t come back and go cause some other unfortunate shop grief,problem solved.Just a thought 😉 (most of the whiners on here I would’nt wish on anyone).

Everyone is having to raise their game and that’s good.

+1 Customer service has to improve when times is hard.

Elfin’s attitude us exactly why people in this country treat each other like shit, what a shame. Like already said I hope a bigger dog never crosses your path elfin.

+1 zillion for si.

Elfin’s attitude us exactly why people in this country treat each other like shit, what a shame. Like already said I hope a bigger dog never crosses your path elfin

Si

If you had two suppliers of the same product, would you not as a business man play them off against each other ?

LBS staff instead of getting a face like a bulldog chewing a wasp when someone mentions Wiggle or CRC need to ask the the customer what can they do to add value to the purchase.

You have obviously realised be a standard high street LBS selling the same stuff as everyone else at a higher price than CRC is not a great business model. You sell products that I can’t buy in my local LBS and you sell online.

Bazzer

If you had two suppliers of the same product, would you not as a business man play them off against each other ?

LBS staff instead of getting a face like a bulldog chewing a wasp when someone mentions Wiggle or CRC need to ask the the customer what can they do to add value to the purchase.

This is exactly why I said I would make the customer who demanded Internet prices wait. Bring the level of shop service down to an internet level, let’s call it “service match”. But this was not acceptable. The shops DO offer a service, an in your hand take it away now service, something you don’t get with the internet.
What exactly are you playing off with what? Most people are looking no further than price, and clearly a few self important customers have never heard of Pareto.

Having worked in a highly competitive industry myself, I’m well aware of competitive advantage to make the sale.
Did my company have the cheapest product? No
Did my company have the highest quality product? No
So how was it with 9 direct competitors was I able to turn 30k pa turnover into almost 300k pa turnover within 18 months?
Because we could offer something the competition couldn’t.

It would appear that there are some bad shops which deserve to lose custom, but equally there are good shops which are being abused by the price match brigade, and are under threat of closure. Wait and see how price competitive the online retailers are when they have a monopoly. 😉

Though bike shops are making record profits aren’t they. My two that I use are.

Don’t expect my sympathy for your struggles; bike shops are simply a retail outlet for me, which charge more than their online competitors. Because they know they can get away with it.

They don’t charge more because they can ‘get away with it’: they are charging what they need to to make a reasonable retail margin.

I’d wager a hotdog that CRC and Wiggle are realising higher percentage margins than your LBS through smart/volume buying. Just becuase they are cheap doesn’t make your LBS a rip-off…

The ‘make a customer wait’ comment by Don Simon may well be the single most stupid thing I’ve ever heard a retailer say (assuming (s)he’s a retailer)…

Though bike shops are making record profits aren’t they. My two that I use are.

So where is that money coming from?
STW nichemongers who want to screw the bike shop for every centimo?
Or people looking to find a cheaper alternative to the car in a time of recession?

The ‘make a customer wait’ comment by Don Simon may well be the single most stupid thing I’ve ever heard a retailer say (assuming (s)he’s a retailer)…

Read into it, understand what I’ve said and then explain why, if you can.

Because we could offer something the competition couldn’t.

Its not about offering something different its about offering what they want.

I could not give a stuff if I can walk out of a shop with a pair of RS revs today, I am more than happy to wait 48hrs and them to be delivered to work.

Thing is also Don most shops would probably not have what you wanted in stock anyway so you end up waiting longer than ordering it on the internet anyway and two trips to the shop.

There is no point in getting angry because your business model is out of date. You are not going to change your customers so had better change your business !!!

Bottom line is if you provide a service that customers want and you can make money you will be successful, if you can’t you won’t.

Would we all get upset if Tesco moaned they could not compete with Lidl ?

Bazzer

I’m proud to work for my lbs, although small we always do a bloddy good job, charge way less than anywhere nearby (including a to-be-left-nameless large shop where prices are high and customer service is low…why go there!!!) and have most jobs done the same day.
We are also bribed by cake, and will do pretty much anything to keep the customer happy. I have not yet, since working there had a customer who wasnt shocked by our speed/cheapness/quality.

I do however understand what you mean by bad attitude, we have a rule: if you come in and are polite, upfront and just generally pleasant we will do near enough anything for you. If you come in aggressively, no please and thank you’s, demanding this and that you may be charged more 🙂

Sorry but if you are an ass to people working really hard for you, on near minimum wage, then its a real shame.

Its not about offering something different its about offering what they want.

Well yes and no. They know they want cheap prices and decent service, but there are also things that they don’t know they want yet, which you may be able to provide and turn a profit.

How about a high speed, same day service option – you drop your bike off before 10 and its ready by 4:30. Of course you pay a premium for it, but some folk will pay for it.

How about a bike fitting service? How about a service pack with a new bike – pay £150 for lifetime service

etc, etc…

Oh and the sooner this paying for things with cake and jaffa cakes bollocks stops the better. Biscuits don’t pay wages.

don simon – Member

Read into it, understand what I’ve said and then explain why, if you can.

I can’t understand what you’re saying, that’s my point.

Me: Can you order me something for £xx
You: That’s close to cost
Me: Well, your choice – perfectly understand
You: Go on then, I’ll order it
Me: Thanks

A few days later
Me: Is my part in yet?
You: Yes, it came in the next day but I’m making you wait, to help you appreciate how good the service is in an LBS
Me: Right, I could have had it next day from CRC though
You: Yes, but I’m making no margin from the deal
Me: Right, so to try and defend your business your offering the same price as online, and the same or worse service, and delivering that with a huge chip on your shoulder? Next time, I’ll just buy it online and save us both the hassle.

Am I missing something?

And what we offered was clearly what the customers wanted to allow me to grow the territory 10X within 18 months. Not really possible by giving the customer something they don’t want. 🙄
Maybe most shops won’t have what I want, but I recognise that I’m not the core business of the shop and don’t think that as a customer I am the most important person in the world.
If you were a salesman working for me and spent all your time ar5elicking every customer,m I would fire you for being inefficient. 😉

What makes you think I’m angry?

Bottom line is if you provide a service that customers want and you can make money you will be successful, if you can’t you won’t.

I completely agree, and if you look that is exactly what I’ve said. What I won’t do is change my philosophy beacuse a few nichemongers in STW who think that buying an XTR groupset will pay the mortgage and send the kids to school!!! I would not try to satisfy the needs of a few labour intensive STWers at the expense of my core business.

iamtheresurrection – Member

Don’t expect my sympathy for your struggles; bike shops are simply a retail outlet for me, which charge more than their online competitors. Because they know they can get away with it.

They don’t charge more because they can ‘get away with it’: they are charging what they need to to make a reasonable retail margin.

I’d wager a hotdog that CRC and Wiggle are realising higher percentage margins than your LBS through smart/volume buying. Just becuase they are cheap doesn’t make your LBS a rip-off…
.[/quote]

Exactly CRC have the largest Madison account and hence get a good deal on many products. I’m sure they have a similar deal with other distributors. Add on cost of space at retail areas compared to a warehouse.

People compare bike shops to tesco. You don’t start bartering at the till in tescos though.

I’ve enquired at my local bike shop about parts, but they rarely have the bits I’m after and getting them to advise price and availability quite often seems to be too much to ask, assuming you walk in and ask in person.

I’ve been misquoted. I feel so used… 😉

iamtheresurrection – Member

don simon – Member

Read into it, understand what I’ve said and then explain why, if you can.

I can’t understand what you’re saying, that’s my point.

Me: Can you order me something for £xx
You: That’s close to cost
Me: Well, your choice – perfectly understand
You: Go on then, I’ll order it
Me: Thanks

A few days later
Me: Is my part in yet?
You: Yes, it came in the next day but I’m making you wait, to help you appreciate how good the service is in an LBS
Me: Right, I could have had it next day from CRC though
You: Yes, but I’m making no margin from the deal
Me: Right, so to try and defend your business you’re offering the same price as online, and the same or worse service, and delivering that with a huge chip on your shoulder? Next time, I’ll just buy it online and save us both the hassle.

Am I missing something?

You’ve got it in one, I’ve made a couple of small changes, but essentially you’re correct.
You’re trying to remove my profit, I don’t want your business. I have lots of other people who are willing to pay a fair price for a fair service and your contribution to my holiday villa is 0.000001%, so stop wasting my time and go to the internet, fit it yourself and don’t come to me with a warranty claim.
You are one small customer, there are lots of businesses surviving very well without your customer, even though you think it, you are not a cash cow. Sorry.

Maybe most shops won’t have what I want, but I recognise that I’m not the core business of the shop and don’t think that as a customer I am the most important person in the world.

I totally agree with that, I know I am not the target market for most bike shops.

So if the LBS is hitting another market and making money from it then the demise is greatly exaggerated 🙂

But how long will it be before your target market realise they can buy elsewhere cheaper !!!

Bazzer

It seems strange that you would go to the effort of ordering something in which is of no benefit to your business and disadvantages the buyer? What’s that about? Some sort of new business ethic? Satisfy the ‘good’ customers and teach everyone else a ‘life lesson’?