That Maxxis "babes calendar" article…

That doesn’t even make any sense. You’ve suggested there is a ‘ban the calendar brigade’ – I’m asking you to provide some evidence to back up that statement (which you obviously can’t because you made it up).

How is that a straw man argument on my part? I directly quoted you. 😕

Objectification isn’t sexism. By definition. Which you yourself posted.

Where?

As it goes, my understanding of objectification is where one is treated more like a thing than a person (someone who undergoes subjective experience). This encompasses sexism.

“Objectification isn’t sexism. By definition.”

Say it is many times as you like, it’s wrong. Objectification isn’t always sexist, but in many – especially this case – it couldn’t be clearer!

1. I do think sexism exists. I don’t think this calendar is sexist.

How do you define sexism?

2. “I am a man therefore my opinion in this is devalued” is a fundamentally sexist attitude

I have not said that. I am also a man.

3. I am telling no-one anything. I am simply putting across my opinion. Some people don’t seem to like my opinion so are very keen to tell me I’m some sort of neolithic misogynist. Funnily enough I take objection to that.

I think you are being a little naieve that’s all. As I used to be.

4. A grown person banning girls from watching star wars is a pillock. Children tend to separate into boys and girls on all sorts of things. This is not sexism, though obviously it could develop if left unchecked into adulthood.

There was no banning, explicitly, but there was labelleing. And the labelling was damaging. As an isolated incident, it’s not much of an issue, but speaking as a parent it’s absolutely bloody everywhere. Girls do this, boys do that. You are right that girls and boys do separate on SOME things (not many, and far from all kids) but the problem is society assuming that you like or dislike certain things BECAUSE of your gender, and labelling things as suitable for girls or boys. And sure, boys might go to the truck aisle and girls to the doll aisle in a shop, but why? Largely because society has conditioned them to want to do those things, by making out that the alternative is some kind of weird choice or not acceptable. Their parents do it just as much as they do, so what choice to they have?

My kid might love trucks, but if she’s made to feel weird for liking them then it’s going to piss on her chips a bit isn’t it? And this kind of attitude is so pervasive it has a deep and lasting effect. We take our cues from the society in which we live.

It’s good if you are genuinely not sexist, dan, that’s great and I will retract that allegation if I made it, but I think you should put a bit more thought into why things like this calendar can be sexist.

I think Maxxis really ought to get a grip – I mean, they should know to tread more carefully. In this day and age, they need a marketing strategy with real traction, otherwise they will eventually feel the pinch when their customers spend their money elsewhere. This may well deflate the brand entirely.

They are promotional models used at commercial events and shows, as many car manufacturers, tv manufacturers soft drink manufacturers, Motorsport and cycling events do.
They made a calendar like much the same as other glamour calendars with proceeds going to charity.

I am also a man.

As am I. Let us shake hands and talk about the big game.

Pirelli managed to do something a bit different for 2016 though chip.. why not Maxxis?

So the logic goes that if other companies do sexist things to sell things, then it is OK?

The fact the money goes to charity means nothing at all, it doesn’t absolve the sexism in any way.

Those poor Maxxis Babes will now have lost income as a result of all this furore. I guess some will say they deserved it on account of the way they dressed.

fourteen pages before dannyh comes along! 😆

Molgrips and faustus:

Define sexism:
Discrimination solely on the basis of gender. I’m not getting my dictionary out but that is a perfectly normal working definition.

There is no discrimination inherent in the calendar ergo not sexist. It may inspire sexist views in some small minority of people but I don’t think you should ban everything because of a small minority of muppets.

grum:
You quoted a phrase in quotes! You don’t want to ban it, you just don’t want anyone to make it, or anything like it, ever again. Explain that logic.

I think Maxxis really ought to get a grip – I mean, they should know to tread more carefully. In this day and age, they need a marketing strategy with real traction, otherwise they will eventually feel the pinch when their customers spend their money elsewhere. This may well deflate the brand entirely.

We had two recent threads on MMA and josh what’s his face.
Did they use promotional models (ring girls), where was the disapproving 14 page threads then.
I hope all you real men who believe this is sexism boycotted these fights.

Objectification is one form of discrimination, and a common one at that. It perpetuates the societal conditioning of females as sexual objects, for the gratification of men. The calendar is therefore a pretty obvious bit of objectification and ‘ergo’ discriminatory sexism. How can this not be sexist apart from you saying it isn’t!?

You quoted a phrase in quotes! You don’t want to ban it, you just don’t want anyone to make it, or anything like it, ever again. Explain that logic.

I assume that like me he wants people to understand why it’s negative and not do it, rather than simply ban it.

fourteen pages before dannyh comes along!

To be honest, I thought it had been a bit of a let down until now, so thought I’d make a serious point.

@cumberland

Considering no-one here had even heard of it before all this palaver do you now all suddenly feel free and un-objectified, or has it really not made one tiny bit of difference to your life?

I wasn’t the one who was being objectified but equally I don’t work for SportsDirect it doesn’t stop me from expressing my distaste for the way they treat their employees for example. Something that by comparison, was brought to my attention by a newspaper journalist recently.

If Maxxis have closed down a particular facet of their marketing as a result of this debate and Adele’s article then I do feel better yes. A point was made , primarily that this type of device creates ill feeling toward your brand which we would otherwise be happy to support. Why did it create that ill feeling because is was sexist by objectifying women.

Well done to @scotroutes for his internet trawling (DYSWIDT!).

chip – Member

I think Maxxis really ought to get a grip – I mean, they should know to tread more carefully. In this day and age, they need a marketing strategy with real traction, otherwise they will eventually feel the pinch when their customers spend their money elsewhere. This may well deflate the brand entirely.

We had two recent threads on MMA and josh what’s his face.
Did they use promotional models (ring girls), were was the disapproving 14 page threads then.
I hope all you real men who believe this is sexism boycotted these fights.

Got one!

I’m putting chip in the landing net and packing up my gear and going home.

Ironically ‘chips’ would go well with the bloody great fish I’ve just landed!

😆

I guess it does raise the question; why take it off the UK site and not the German one (and I’ve no idea if there are others)? Are attitudes that different across borders? Does it give those in the UK a feeling of being on the higher moral ground?

What’s the difference? That you get to feel morally superior and retain your liberal status rather than being part of a culture which bans things it disapproves of?

Adele seems to think its OK in other contexts (presumably such as motorsport). So is it ok so long as it doesn’t come into your field of view?

Perhaps the ‘answer’ to sexism in society is education rather than faux-outrage at a silly calendar?

It’s not about my moral superiority or ‘liberal’ status as you so kindly put it (not that gender equality need be liberal of course). It’s not about some nanny state banning either, it just shows we’ve reached an empasse where you can’t admit something is sexist, even though you’ve basically defined it as such. The answer to sexism is education for sure, but also to stop pretty bad examples of it! It’s not faux-outrage either, it’s defending an important issue.

Perhaps the ‘answer’ to sexism in society is education rather than faux-outrage at a silly calendar?

Just to make it clear – I’m not expressing outrage, faux or otherwise.

My point is about how sexist attitudes can still be damaging despite increased equality in society.

Adele seems to think its OK in other contexts (presumably such as motorsport). So is it ok so long as it doesn’t come into your field of view?

What’s your point? Presumably the ‘babes’ in the calendar think it’s ok too. I don’t.

Discrimination solely on the basis of gender

That’s sexual discrimination – sexism is more than that. What would you call the subliminal imposition of gender bias onto society? You have another word for it? What about the subliminal oppression of women (more controversial, that one)

Well faustus, I explained why I thought it wasn’t sexist. You are using a different definition to me and on that we really are splitting hairs. You are talking about a society wide ill by using that term, I am talking about an ‘in the moment effect’. If we adopted each others definition we would probably agree (to an extent).

So far as the important issue bit goes I don’t actually think that smutty images ’cause’ sexist behaviour, and as such the target is wrong.

That’s my opinion that is. You don’t have to think the same as me. Even if you’re female 😉

Got one!
I’m putting chip in the landing net and packing up my gear and going home.
Ironically ‘chips’ would go well with the bloody great fish I’ve just landed!

Curry sauce, can’t have chips without curry sauce.

I don’t think it’s a different definition, and we’re never going to agree. But it’s got to that ‘we’ll have to agree to disagree’ platitude moment!

I’m assuming you checked my name, so i’m happy to say that you don’t need to be a female to be a feminist 🙂

Curry sauce, can’t have chips without curry sauce.

I appreciate your point here – but not with fish as well. Chips and curry sauce = fine. Battered sausage + chips + curry sauce = fine. Fish + chips + curry sauce = not fine. Mushy peas with fish and chips. Always.

However, having see how some of the other threads have gone in the last day or so, I don’t want to start a sub-thread with you on something that is truly important and likely to inflame passions on all sides. The last thing this place needs is a thread that really turns nasty.

You are using a different definition to me and on that we really are splitting hairs.

Hmm I don’t think it’s a small difference. Just look at this thread. Someone was dismayed or upset by the calendar, and we’ve had 15 pages of people telling her she’s overreacting, and to calm down dear… so we’re trying to say why it’s an issue. Call it sexism or something else, it’s still an issue.

I’d be interested to know if you have kids, dan – not because I want to be self-righteous (I hate that) but because it can be an eye opener and an interesting experience.

Seriously though, does all this shite binners keeps posting actually make anyone think “What a great guy, i wish i could be like him”? Or does it just inspire other thoughts?

molgrips-

That’s sexual discrimination – sexism is more than that. What would you call the subliminal imposition of gender bias onto society? You have another word for it? What about the subliminal oppression of women (more controversial, that one)

Splitting hairs again I think. I’d call it normal to some degree. We can all try and treat people equally but fundamentally you will never be able to eradicate some level of gender bias. Men and women are different after all.

Is this calendar and its ilk really such a strong influence? I seriously doubt it.

Is this calendar and its ilk really such a strong influence? I seriously doubt it.

Still on first base. Tsk.

Actually, a few of those posts have been pointing out her hypocrisy. That can be the case whether or not she was right on this occasion.

Molgrips –

If you read the thread i have covered the kids bit, and yeah i do. And ones a girl. And it really doesn’t seem to be a big deal. It would be a healthy lesson to her to realise that some men like to look at tits but don’t actually think of women as good for nothing but lying on their backs and making tea (that right tyson?). Unfortunately some do, banning (or removing from sale) a few calendars isn’t going to change that.

We can all try and treat people equally but fundamentally you will never be able to eradicate some level of gender bias.

Hmm. Men and women are slightly different, but that doesn’t mean one has to have the upper hand.

There’s a lot written about this. Gender pay gap, for starters.

Unfortunately some do

Yes. The point is that the calendar is intended to be displayed in a communal if not public manner. So everyone gets to see it. From the sexist man to the insecure woman.

Imagine if someone produced a slave calendar, with pictures of black people working in cotton fields, and published it in say Missippi. For, you know, historical interest. Cos of course slavery is banned now so it’s all ok, right? That battle was won 150 years ago.

Education said somebody. I used to despair of my teaching resources they were so blatantly sexist. If ever there’s a time people learn to conform to their sex stereotype it’s at school. Astronauts are men, footballers are men, building workers are men, nurses are women, biologists are women. There has been a recent attempt to remove sex and race stereotyping in school books but it’s still there, even in the comic posters teachers put up:

I used to pick my kid up at “l’heure des mamans”.

does all this shite binners keeps posting actually make anyone think “What a great guy, i wish i could be like him”? Or does it just inspire other thoughts?

well I certainly hope he doesn’t drink Tennents..

I think binners is a top bloke.

Do you think if a shipload of little girls washed up on a desert island and were looked after by wolves they’d grow up to worry about makeup and lingerie? Really?

This would make a great experiment. What would happen if after 10 years or so a similar aged boy washed up on the same island?

This would make a great experiment. What would happen if after 10 years or so a similar aged boy washed up on the same island?

I think we all know the answer to that one…………

I think Maxxis really ought to get a grip – I mean, they should know to tread more carefully. In this day and age, they need a marketing strategy with real traction, otherwise they will eventually feel the pinch when their customers spend their money elsewhere. This may well deflate the brand entirely

Seems they’ve gone boobless.

It’s back online.

Just gonna throw this in here.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/