That Maxxis "babes calendar" article…

This is close to being a repeat of this thread:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/podium-girls-do-they-still-have-a-place-at-races-what-do-you-think

The same exceedingly poor arguments are being rolled out again, and it’s like watching flies batting against a window. This thread has developed far beyond the original article it refers to, and it mainly succeeds in highlighting the ingrained sexism of a few ill-informed blokes. I’m not sure i’ve got the will power to go through this again, and many will perhaps never be convinced because it would mean admitting you’re a bit sexist, but here are a few points:

– ‘reverse sexism’ is no defense against sexism, and merely highlights how ingrained it is, and makes its perpetuation somehow acceptable.
– Social conditioning is a very powerful thing which has been proven. Biological determinism in this argument is a myth, talking about ‘evolution’ is pretty useless.
– Just because you are blind to the consequences of sexism, does not mean it does not exist or that it has no impact on people’s lives or societal values.
– social norm doesn’t mean a social right. Because something is ‘normal’ or commonplace, doesn’t mean it is fine. That it is so ingrained, is what makes change so difficult.
– Mutual exclusivity: understand the concept and apply to arguments. Disagreeing with lazy sexism doesn’t make someone a ‘PC gone mad guardian reading nazi’. People can find other people sexually attractive and also not be sexist. Not being sexist doesn’t mean you have to live in a white room like a monk. This list is not exhaustive.
– Women are not all spokespersons for their own gender. It is not the job of every woman to defend or speak up for all of womanhood. It is also not the job of every women to perfectly exhibit and express the tenets of gender equality.
– Not all women are feminists. Really. Some examples may exist of women exhibiting objectifying behaviour of their own free will, and defending sexism/objectification/etc. Holding up these examples as reasons to devalue sexism, doesn’t invalidate the arguments for battling sexism itself.
– Conflating sexism with ‘mating’. I don’t even know where that leap of thinking came from.

There’s plenty more of that, but if you’re interested you can just type in ‘classic misogynist arguments made by idiots’ into google, and there’s plenty to choose from.

And all this objectifying stuff is written by women for women

The gender of the writers and consumers doesn’t matter, though, does it? What matters is the value of what’s being written, and whether it has a positive, negative or neutral effect on our society.

Cougar : Jesus Christ, I’m away for 24 hours and the wheels come off.

I’ve swung the hammer a bit so that adults can talk

faustus thanks. Rather good.

To that I’d add people confusing disapproval with censorship, and attacking the messenger rather than the message.

But Its a good lightning rod thread. Flushed out some sexist and selfish attitudes.

If you want pin-up calendars banned, consider carefully what you are wishing for.

First they came for that lass with her norks out…..

Condescending will get you nowhere, Binners. 😉

😉 … .

Someone else Adele describes as just lovely, and no mention of her “glamour” work.
victoria[/url]

Is it because despite maxxis making her feel stupid, Lisa and Victoria don’t. Or is it because criticising Lisa Snowden or Victoria pendleton may conflict with her professional commitments.

If you do search for

There’s plenty more of that, but if you’re interested you can just type in ‘classic misogynist arguments made by idiots’ into google, and there’s plenty to choose from.

You’re not likely to be getting a balanced viewpoint either are you.

There are a large number of garden paths down which we’ve gaily wandered (you can have that one, I don’t care) leading to a great number of goalpost shifted deadends of completely illogical thought. The vast bulk of those are from the ‘ban the calendar’ brigade.

No-one has yet posted anything which comes remotely close to explaining how this calendar warrants the foot stamping, toys out of the pram article or indeed how it is actually in any way sexist, beyond some vague notion that it perpetuates some kind of societal malaise engendered by having a male dominated misogynistic’ society. Which is drivel.

Please explain to me how a person of male orientation could ever actually ‘win’ in your world?

By treating people as equals, I’d imagine. Maybe you should ask a woman how you can ‘win’ in their world, that’s kind of the point.

No-one has yet posted anything which comes remotely close to explaining how this calendar warrants the foot stamping, toys out of the pram article or indeed how it is actually in any way sexist

It’s naff and shit at the same time, I’m annoyed at Maxxis ’cause I like their products, beleive there is no room for sexism in MTB’ing and they could have got plenty of positive images of women doing stuff rather than just “looking pretty”. Something that they have every right to do if they so wish, women that is not Maxxis.

However flashing your arse (paraphrasing), male or female, is something people like to do and people like to see, in some ways given that the models are getting paid I doubt they are feeling too exploited. We can all wring our hands and suggest all sorts of negative connotations around this type of marketing but people like sex and it’s a quick and simple way to get attention. Men and women have body image issues none of this lowest common denominator stuff helps.

I don’t like it personally when used in this fashion and I would hope that Maxxis address the level of disquiet the calendar has attracted. Not because I don’t think women can stick up for themselves but more the idea that we are so dumb that a nice picture of a female body will make us buy their stuff over how it actually works. It’s just sad and pathetic. – Back to Adele.

cumberlandan and chip – i’m not sure I could do a hand clap slow enough to honour your pitiful arguments. But it’s enough that you’re both showing everyone how blindly sexist you are simply by carrying on.

Yes binners, i’m quite aware of your attitude.

Another sensible one by surroundedbyhills.

Cougar – Moderator

Please explain to me how a person of male orientation could ever actually ‘win’ in your world?

By treating people as equals, I’d imagine. Maybe you should ask a woman how you can ‘win’ in their world, that’s kind of the point.

Does that not sound a bit odd when you read it in your head?

Its not the womans world, its not the mans world, its just the world. Somethings you like, somethings you don’t like but people have different opinions and I’m quite happy to let them get on with it.

Adele doesn’t seem to be.

cumberlandan and chip – i’m not sure I could do a hand clap slow enough to honour your pitiful arguments. But it’s enough that you’re both showing everyone how blindly sexist you are simply by carrying on.

Maybe, but I find Adele barely credible and a hypocrite.

What is negative about it?

This is nothing to do with procreation any more. We aren’t birds. We choose our mates on all sorts of things. Humans have evolved social pressures, higher thoughts, casual sex, women’s magazines and dirty calendars, so the evoution argument is out of the window.

What’s negative about your statement about women needing to look pretty for men? Well – what if you’re not pretty? Or what if you’re insecure, and aren’t sure how pretty you are? Why should you be made to think how you look is important? (The same goes for men and women here) You end up with a lot of people feeling insecure and worrying about stuff that they shouldn’t be. This makes for unahppiness, and unhappiness is bad.

Another issue I have here is that you’re a man, cumberlanddan, and women have told you that they find this calendar offensive, and you are basically telling them they are wrong. I am trying to explain why they might think that way. I think that you think they’re wrong because you’ve no idea what they are talking about. But the reason you have no idea what they are talking about is BECAUSE you’re a man.

Make an effort to understand, and LISTEN to what people are telling you so that you may learn.

Imagine you had a problem with your bike, you felt the shock wasn’t working properly so you took it into Marks and Spencers, and they told you it was fine, stop worrying about it. You wouldnt’ beleive them because you know about bikes and they don’t.

Sexism does exist. You THINK it doesn’t, because you haven’t experienced it. Nowadays it’s a bit different to 100 years ago; men don’t openly go round saying women shouldn’t do things because they are useless. It’s more subtle than that.

My daughter loves Star Wars. Her school friend (a boy) upset her by telling her Star Wars was for boys. The boy’s mum agreed and told my daughter it was for boys. So she then thought she was doing something wrong, and she wasn’t allowed to watch it any more.

What the actual ****? Sexism at work.

Its not the womans world, its not the mans world, its just the world.

That’s what you think, unfortunately it’s not actually true. As I said, do some more reading.

As its Mad Friday, I thought some beers might be in order. So I’ve bought some in especially for Chip and Cumberlanddan. Stay classy boys….

In a totally non-sexist, progressive, totally unlike Jim Davidson, 21st century way. Cheers!!! 😆

If you want pin-up calendars banned

I said ‘a bit naff’, and I think less of places that display them, not ‘should be banned’. Many others have said similar and explained why.

Perhaps we need to express this through the medium of interpretive dance to a Jonny Halliday sound track? (Perhaps not.)

Foucault states…”even when individuals think they are most free, they are in fact in the grip of more insidious forms of power

finally, someone who knows Foucault…

cumberlanddan, and women have told you that they find this calendar offensive, and you are basically telling them they are wrong. I am trying to explain why they might think that way.

I thought it was agreed it was not offensive but tacky, sad and dissapointing.

Larger looks appealing…

And a packet of Big D peanuts please

you seem to know rather a lot about what i think. perhaps we shoudl set some of that right.

1. I do think sexism exists. I don’t think this calendar is sexist.
2. “I am a man therefore my opinion in this is devalued” is a fundamentally sexist attitude
3. I am telling no-one anything. I am simply putting across my opinion. Some people don’t seem to like my opinion so are very keen to tell me I’m some sort of neolithic misogynist. Funnily enough I take objection to that.
4. A grown person banning girls from watching star wars is a pillock. Children tend to separate into boys and girls on all sorts of things. This is not sexism, though obviously it could develop if left unchecked into adulthood.

Basically there are quite a few sexists on this thread and they are not the ones saying that the calendar is a bad thing.

@Johnx2 – you have tried Tennants haven’t you?

There you go John….

Anyway… I was talking to this bird, right? Proper tasty she was. Great pair of jugs on ‘er! Probably a right goer…..

Keep flying into the window cumberlanddan. The last word isn’t the right one.

Binners you are hilarious, you have me down to a T.

binners

I’m out….

POSTED 1 DAY AGO # REPORT-POST

I just hope you’re not relying on withdrawal as a contraceptive method.

Oh come on…. this thread is the gift that just keeps giving. How could I resist? I was only 3 when some of these attitudes were deemed beyond the pale. Its been educational! A trip back in time to a less enlightened age, where self-awareness was a rare quality only displayed by pooftah’s… 😆

Following comments by Binners and Johnx2 I have just had the realisation that dancing rock and roll makes me a grade A sexist in their eyes, and they’re right!:

I have never danced rock and roll with a man
I have never asked a man to dance
I dress male for the occasion
I wear suede shoes with low heels
I wear Axe not channel #x
I don’t paint my nails or wear lipstick
I refer to women as girls whatever their age
I go to the bar for drinks as do the other men
I lead and get frustrated if the girl doesn’t follow
I go to the men’s toilet
I don’t like dancing with women taller than me (rotor cuff issues)
We make sure women don’t have to walk home on their own but aren’t worried if men do

Vive la difference!

objectifyplay
verb ob·jec·ti·fy \?b-?jek-t?-?f?\

Simple Definition of objectify : to treat (someone) as an object rather than as a person

Men objectify women – this is sexist
Women objectify men – this is sexist
Women objectify women – this is sexist
Men objectify men – this is sexist

The problem is that the calendar presents only one aspect of the women; portrayed as objects, you know nothing else of them. Were they pictured riding bikes or racing cars then it changes the emphasis and provides a back story that says “Look! there is a women hucking a massive drop, nice technique, what equipment does she use..why it’s Maxxis tyres of course” But it doesn’t it just says – “nice ass – buy these tyres” If you like this sort of stuff fair enough but it’s sad and pathetic and like those Tennants Lager cans it is full of pish.

Cumberlanddan – I think you are wrong and so will most of society, you may not care about this that is your right.

BTW the Maxxis Babes section of their website has been closed.

“I wear Axe not channel #x”

*swoon*

Following comments by B*****s and Johnx2 I have just had the realisation that dancing rock and roll makes me a grade A sexist

Oi that’s a bit of a leap. Or should I say grand jeté?

It’s OK. If you can manage the language difficulties, alternatives exist

http://www.maxxis-babes.de/

surroundedbyhills – I’m not sure what you think i think but i suspect you are not entirely correct.

I can see your point, yes, the calendar objectifies women, but to say that that in itself is sexist simply isn’t correct. Undesirable, maybe. Crass, certainly. But sexist in and of itself? No.

I’m surprised at Maxxis’ reaction there. Another blow struck for the censors I suppose.

Considering no-one here had even heard of it before all this palaver do you now all suddenly feel free and un-objectified, or has it really not made one tiny bit of difference to your life?

I can see your point, yes, the calendar objectifies women, but to say that that in itself is sexist simply isn’t correct. Undesirable, maybe. Crass, certainly. But sexist in and of itself? No.

And in a similar triumph of logic…..

Another blow struck for the censors I suppose.

They’ve taken it down off their Facebook page too. Honestly… its like North Korea round here

😆

On positive representation in advertising, here are a few:

And then there’s fun with gender politics (all Money Supermarket). Refreshingly good?

“I can see your point, yes, the calendar objectifies women, but to say that that in itself is sexist simply isn’t correct. Undesirable, maybe. Crass, certainly. But sexist in and of itself? No.”

Er, yes. In the context of the calender the objectification of women is done so for the gratification of men. If you agree that it does objectify then that pretty much defines it as sexist! It places sole importance on the appearance of the woman at the exclusion of other human qualities, done so in order to sell a product.

It would actually make a difference if a few sexists re-thought their ideas on the back of this debate.

The vast bulk of those are from the ‘ban the calendar’ brigade.

Can you find one single post where anyone has suggested banning the calendar?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

I think you dont understand what the calendar is. It is not a piece of highbrow social commentary. Its a calendar of women, paid for by a tyre manufacturer, to raise money for charity.

Is this a cheap, outdated and misguided concept? Maybe. Is it a blow for misogynists everywhere against women. No.

If you object to calendars of women I suggest you dont wander into any stationery shop anytime soon.

Objectification isn’t sexism. By definition. Which you yourself posted.

grum – Member

The vast bulk of those are from the ‘ban the calendar’ brigade.

Can you find one single post where anyone has suggested banning the calendar?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

In response to you:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Though I suspect you wont see the ironing…

You’re all bloody crackers.