Swinley Investment and Mountain Bike Network

LOL they have for Years mate.

i know, i’ve got permits dangling off my bike 🙂 i just wondered as the permit money went towards BOB/gorrick/insurance i thought, but its a different company doing the work now?

no, permit scheme is ending

Current policy on permits (at least as of two weeks ago) is that if you need to buy a day permit, you get your car park charge refunded. No discount if you bought a yearly permit though!

In his press release from CE, John Deakin states that they have made a conservative estimate of 170,000 riders per year using Swinley.

Out of idle curiosity I did a few calcs, based on some assumptions:

80% of riding is done on the weekend: 136,000 riders @ weekends
50 weekends a year (100 days): 1360 riders per weekend
Riders set out between 9-2: 272 riders per hour

Which would mean that on AVERAGE, you’d have 4.5 riders per minute (or roughly one every 13 seconds) setting out from just the ONE blue trail by the lookout. That’s not even adjusted for seasons, where I would guess you could easily double it for Bank Holidays or summer holidays.

Considering 170,000 was a “conservative estimate”, is the biggest danger not just that the Blue run will become incredibly over-crowded as everyone uses it to either get to the Jump/Freeride section, or to DH section, or to the red route?

Back of a fag packet calculations, I know.

I think that incudes familys going for a ride on the fire roads. Although 5 riders/minute probably isn’t a bad estimate for the whole 9 yards on a dry weekend. If you pause for a rest someone or more likely a group will overtake you.

I went round at about 10pm on a Saturday night, there were still 4 sets of lights just on Stickler as I pased! Say most people were there for 2 hours, maybe 10 areas the size of stickler, 40 riders makes that one settign off every 3 minutes even at the most off peak of times!

170,000 does seem an odly exact figure, I wonder if there’s been a machine counting wheels past Go-ape and the tea rooms?

I dont believe their numbers are right, i know its a big forest but I cant, and havent, seen 1300 odd riders in there even on a summers weekend.

own up, who is half a rider? must be me. :o)

Agree with the calc to get the 4.5 riders per min, but the reality would probably be more like a group (of say 5-10 on average) would pass by within a few seconds of each other, and then no-one else for another minute or two. And a minute of riding at 12km/h (just to keep the calc simple) is 200m, so you’re talking gaps between groups of 200-400m. Still busy, but particularly on the twisty stuff, 200m can put you out of sight with the group ahead and the group behind so you may as well be the only group on the trail.

The issue will be at the start / end of sections, where groups will regroup and in doing so the next will catch up, so will be like playing golf – each hole can be played almost non-stop, but then you’ll bunch up on the next tee again. Do we need an agreed etiquette on the back of the trail map reminding us to let faster riders through 😉

This has got me down. Been riding here since 92. Permit and all. Among people I ride with we have had the odd conversation along the lines of……

its getting busier – but it will clear out come the winter……and then it’s still busy – one day it might be an idea to get a few routes ‘one way’ traffic etc.

Anyway, I will give it a try, but out of protest – I MAY NOW NOT BUY A CUP OF TEA.

An idea (not a good one) but does anyone fancy redoing the Swinley flash mob / love in?

I have been on a couple in the past – and loved being shown new routes and ways to link up old faithful routes.

May be this is the last chance to ‘legally’ hit all the Gold in the forrest?

the point is to reduce usage off the mtb trail, which will happen naturally as more people will stick to the man made stuff. they cant sign post every footpath or police every junction, the forest is too big and rambling, what they can do is make statements to discourage people straying and hand in hand with dryer, and more man made stuff, it will. It will put ‘day trippers off’, is all, not regulars who know the forest well.

Indeed, I reckon the big point has been that up till now there’s never been a cohesive ‘loop’ with the existing trails, so a lot of the daytrippers wander off piste, as other than the built trails there’s no ‘direction’ to tell them what to do next.

An idea (not a good one) but does anyone fancy redoing the Swinley flash mob / love in?

I like the sound of that.

But Phil’s married now, is he still allowed sexyparties?

lol of course i’m allowed sexy parties!

but it doesn’t have to be me that organises them 😉 set a time and date, promote it, make the point that everyone is welcome and anybody who think’s they’re cooler than another rider because of their bike or skills will be bluntly reminded of how much of a knob they look in a bike helmet and riding clothes…. sorted.

Because there can never be enough threads about Swinley

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/whos-up-for-a-swinley-sexy-party-before-the-bulldozers-move-in-9th-december

So, in summary then – will I be able to ride there tomorrow night?

I must admit that I am uncertain what people mean by “trail centres” other than it being a term of abuse on STW. I only ride in Surrey Hills and Lakes mostly singletrack and off-piste stuff. The only TC I have visited was Whinlater in the Lakes which I enjoyed (as something different) and so I guess TC=slightly sanitised surfaces (ie fewer roots and boggy bits?) with differing degrees of difficulty, some rocks, a few jumps and berms etc but with more obvious obstacles.

If my understanding is correct, then I see what is happening at Swinley as a glass half full. I would imagine that the result would be a series of TC routes where 90% of the traffic will be concentrated combined with a degree of stuff similar to now where the remaining 10% will spend the most/some of their time. The Crown Estates (is that correct) are hardly going to have the resources or the desire for draconian policing.

So I expect much of the same as now albeit with some of existing trails being constructed better/sanitised (your choice) plus loads of off-piste stuff remaining for those in the know.

Plus ca change, rien na change

So, in summary then – will I be able to ride there tomorrow night?

Yes

The good thing about Swinley was that it was a lot of trail centre quality trails that you could link together with quality natural stuff in endless combinations. TCs are usually a small number of set loops of which you do laps.

The Crown Estates (is that correct) are hardly going to have the resources or the desire for draconian policing.

Well that’s just it, isn’t it. They probably won’t be able to stop us, but it still criminalises what we are currently able to do via permit. I don’t want the stress of being an outlaw, tbh.

Now, it could well be that they are taking this stance in the knowledge that we will continue to ride, to let them off the hook for insurance purposes. If so, it’s not a bad idea. As I understand it, it’d be the same situation as with the MoD land in the area – if I understand the byelaws correctly you’re only allowed on the fire-roads in there, but everyone happily ignores the rule.

I have only ridden there once recently and enjoyed the contrast. The one with all the work being done then (strickler? nr the tank traps) was certainly different from the more natural stuff that I ride locally, but still fun and good for practicing cornering technique (but wouldnt want to ride that all the time). Still not sure how such a long trail was fitted into such a small area – totally lost my sense of direction on that one!!!

mol – I think your final para will be close to the truth, hopefully!

Sorry to resurrect this post again, but does anyone know if there is a contact name/ e-mail address for the person in charge of these alterations?

I’ve been asked by a local childrens cycling club to pass on some concerns, but there doesn’t seem to be anybody to pass those concerns on to.

I’m guessing Rowan Sorrell is just the contractor doing the work. I’d like to contact the shady “Mr. Big” who must be in charge. Presumably its someone at Crown Estates?

This meeting tonight might be a quicker way of getting your voice heard. Can’t make it myself – anyone going?

thepurist – Member
This meeting tonight might be a quicker way of getting your voice heard. Can’t make it myself – anyone going?

Mate of mine is going yes. However at this stage he doesn’t have much of an ‘opinion’ …. quite a few worries like the rest of us… but who’s to say the people building aren;t right…. that will only be truely apparent after it’s done 🙂

I’d like to contact the shady “Mr. Big” who must be in charge. Presumably its someone at Crown Estates?

John Deakin is the Chief forester / overseer of this initiative

I’ve changed my mind, after slogging through ankle deep mud for 12miles/2 hours of whats supposed to be a fairly quick 30mile loop in the Chilterns on Saturday evening, some good all weather trails can’t come soon enough!

As long as horsey types are banned so I’ve got some rideable trails I don’t care!

I’ll cope with being an outlaw on the natural trails. And the yellow brick road stuff can always be ridden back to front at night to get some more variety.

Thanks,

I know a couple of people who I think will be going to that meeting.

No direct contact for John Deakin, so I’ve e-mailed the crown estates press office, hoping they will pass a message on.

While we’re on the subject of cycle paths. Does anyone have a good explanation why the cyclepath allong Nine Mile Ride heading away from Swinely towards TRL gets to the roundabout, crosses the road several times then officialy ends. Whilst if you ignore it and stay on the pavement it carry’s on uninterupted for another mile or so.

I’m not adverse to riding in the road, but as it’s there I use it.

Anyone get along to that meeting last night, or heard anything from those that did?

Cheers martinh – being positive it sounds like there’s some interesting new sections going in and only minor tweaks to improve existing stuff. On the downside the ‘grand opening’ he mentions in March could lead to 4 months of further and further restricted riding as each of the existing parts gets closed to be worked on. No mention of the fate of other existing trails either.

All looks good the only bit that seems a bit of a shame is the fireroad from seagull to the reservoir.

MAP

On my usual route I tend to use roller coaster and do seagull the other way.

Obviously soreen cant consider roller coaster as its on MOD land.

I reckon the red trail would flow better in the other direction myself.

Obviously tanks traps/Lab/Deer stalker can only be riden one way, but minor changes to the route could easily sort that.

Thanks for the post. Seems a very sensible bloke. Glass 3/4 full if not more IMO.

I didn’t go, but here is a useful summary of the meeting, ripped off another website:

Swinley is a commercial forest run owned and by the crown estate. Mountain Biking was originally permitted on Fireroads and in the area defined as the Expert Mountain Biking area. However the trails have expanded outside of the original area to cover the forest.

Swinley Forest is home to 3 types of rare ground nesting birds, Natural England has designated Swinley a Special Protection Area and requested that clear felling take places to provide an environment for these birds, they’ve also requested that access is restricted to these area to avoid disturbing the birds.
CE has been subject to multiple liability insurance claims by individuals who have had accident on features on the unregulated trails.

Because of these 2 reasons (erosion is not an issue) CE have had to develop a plan to provide a sustainable method of permitting Mountain Biking, and have been in discussion with Rowan Sorrel for the past 18 Months who has devised the strategy for Swinley. Although members of BOB and Gorrick have been consulted, the plans suggested by BOB and Gorrick we not workble so the original plan has been actioned.

There will be 3 routes:

A green run for beginners and children, this is being developed with input from 2 local schools.

A blue run which will wider than singletrack, fast and flowy.

A red run which will be mainly technical singletrack with potentially some black features.

The Blue and Red routes will include some existing trails plus a lot of new tracks, where existing trails are used some work will be done to improve the surfces and flow.

There will also be a Downhill area by deerstalker/labrynth, and a free ride area in the Gully area.

Riding on all fireroads is still permitted

Apart from the above marked trails/areas, the rest of the forest is off limits. Wardens will use a soft approach to illegal riders, reminding them the only permitted trails/areas are permitted, however if this doesn’t work thet may need to take further action.

Crowthorne Woods (bomb holes, corkscrew) are not included in the Changes to Swinley as it is Forestry Commission land, however FC are watching the development in Swinley to see how to proceed.

The permit scheme finishes in March, replaced with the carparking charge which applies to all vistors not just MTBers. The new trails will open in March 2013.
It is envisioned that the new Swinley Access Group (SAG) will help provide voluntery assistance to help perserve,maintain & develop the new trails. It is also stated that the current plans are not the end of trial development.
There is still a question mark over XC/Enduro racing at Swinley, as all events will be limited to having to use the new trails.

It should be noted that all users of the forest will be subject to control restrictions over the next few years, with new walking trails developed.

Makes for interesting viewing/reading and I’m sure Rowan Sorrell will build some great sections, but there are some long fireroad sections on the Red and lots of good existing trail will be lost.

And i prefer riding Seagull East to West. So its a shame that it’ll be one way West to East.

Be interested to know what BOB/Gorrick proposed that was rejected.

John said in his talk that one of the main things they proposed in meetings were two way trails.

Given that the cycling in Swinley will now be funnelled into just two loops, and that the increased signage and more accessible trails will attract more riders to the forest, it is probably unsurprising that this proposal was rejected.

It was asked in the Q&A how they intended to police this and whether he’d consider use of steps in the trails to make pushing/riding back up trails harder work – he hadn’t given it a great deal of thought, but said he’d discuss how they’d manage it with Rowan – so it is on their agenda.

I don’t know of any trail centre that allows two way trails?

Link to video of presentation: http://vimeo.com/54847938

Bit sad to see really, only ridden swinley a few times but enjoyed the variety and the novelty of being able to spot a trail off a fireroad and just point the bike down it. Rode really early in the morning when it was quiet which was fantastic. Spent a happy day just riding about following locals while the other half did the Dirt Divas course in Crowthorne Woods.

Will probably pop up sometime next year but it all looks a bit motorway from the map.

Not sad, will be great, rowan talks sense.

Apart from the above marked trails/areas, the rest of the forest is off limits. Wardens will use a soft approach to illegal riders,

And so it begins…We’re to be criminalized for riding around a wood on bicycles… Crown Estates…Doesn’t that ultimately belong to us?

I really can’t see how they are going to identify, find, stop and eject riders straying off these trails without a massive increase in wardens.

Not about “erosion” my arse…. 🙄

nickc – have you actually watched either of those 2 videos posted up there?

And so it begins…We’re to be criminalized for riding around a wood on bicycles… Crown Estates…Doesn’t that ultimately belong to us?

No, it doesn’t. It belongs to the Crown. Since George III though, all the income from the land has been given to the government – £250m last year. They make a loss at Swinley Forest, which is the only part of the portfolio which does make a loss (They own about £7bn worth of assets across the UK).

As for identifying illegal riders, they have realised they will need to increase their resources in terms of wardens on patrol. Initially at least they plan to softly educate people about why the changes have been put in place, but ultimately they could get a lot tougher. John Deakin stated he was very much not in favour of this and would only use it as a last resort if he fails to get the buy-in he’s hoping for from the MTB community.

If it makes you feel any better it’s not just MTBers who will be strongly encouraged away from potential breeding areas, it’s all users of the forest.

It’s all in the video 🙂

Reading between the lines they were talking about voulenteer groups maintaining the trails. Hopefully this means new trails can continue to be built as well as long as they’re built to spec so that the liability argument is satisfied? And hopefuly the rules aout only BOB being allowed to be involved will change.

I don’t know of any trail centre that allows two way trails?

I think that was the gripe, it’s not a trail center, it was some trails in a wood that you could go and ride freely. Trail centers are good fun, but they’re different.

nickc – have you actually watched either of those 2 videos posted up there?

+1, he seems to be getting hot and bothered about things that aren’t true. It’s been explained that walkers will be encouraged onto walking trails as well, it doesn’t make it any better, but it’s not just mountainbikers being singled out.

I don’t know if “illegal” was the word used at the meeting. I just assumed it was shorthand for “people riding in areas that the landowners didn’t want people riding in”.

I got a bit depressed about the insurance liability claims by people who have had accidents on the unregulated trails. Rumour has it that there are 5 outstanding claims, one of which will cost 50k to settle. I imagine this is probably the main reason that crown estates are putting their foot down.