STW Zwift Autumn Series 2

Yes – @phil56 is right:

Rather than everyone lobbying Robbo for their preferred option let’s have some thought for the guy who makes this all possible.

last night the top As weren’t just handicapped in the race, we were handicapped out of
the race

I think it has improved since the last series though hasn’t it?

I’ll be laughing all day at the posts suggesting that you lot were not going particularly fast (as you ground me, and lots of others, into the virtual dust).

@Phil56, sorry about that. I should have got my facts right.

As said earlier, even though I love the extra dimension the sprints give, I really don’t think they help the pointy end get more overall points. I think the pace was slower last night, as some of us fancied some sprint points so the lead up to the sprints slows to 250W ish, and again, post sprint as we recover. On a TTT for example I’d be trying to push 290w+ for the entirety. It’s a proper Catch 22, and Phil played a blinder-but only came out with 12 points (largely down to the proximity of the Marina sprint to the last hill).
One thought is to give extra points for the actual finishing positions. I know it wouldn’t be ideal in a bunch sprint scenario but the last 2 races would have given Nixie and Phil a good haul for their efforts.

How about keeping it simple? Bonus points for the first 3 finishers over the line, prior to handicaps being awarded. That way it gives the fast A riders something to fight for. It’s no worse than the sprint points.

I do feel for the pointy end riders to put in all that effort and then get nothing for it.

I do feel for the pointy end riders to put in all that effort and then get nothing for it.

TBH mate i think most are giving exactly the same effort, so you can’t really use that.

You only have to look at how many are increasing their FTP in races or getting right on the cusp of it, setting HR max’s etc…

So without being too cruel, they’re not actually trying any harder for 0 points than the guy who finished last… they’re just going quicker 🙂

Fair point Weeksy, but they always seem to drop a huge amount when the handicaps kick in, which isn’t the case with us in the middle etc.
What is the incentive to win the race if you are going to get nothing to show for it, look at Phil last night, they should at least get something hence my suggestion above.

Fair point Weeksy, but they always seem to drop a huge amount when the handicaps kick in, which isn’t the case with us in the middle etc.
What is the incentive to win the race if you are going to get nothing to show for it, look at Phil last night, they should at least get something hence my suggestion above.

THat i agree with. The forumla isn’t quite there yet.

That’s not a criticsm for Robbo by the way, but if Phil and a few others are going balls to the wall week in week out and getting nothing… then the handicaps need reviewing for them.

To be honest Paino my slowing on the flat section once we caught nixie wasn’t to do with saving myself for the sprints, it was ensuring I didn’t need blue-lighting off my turbo.

I don’t think I was towing everyone on my own for the first few minutes by any stretch so I’d like to think everyone else was wondering if that was laboured breathing or an actual heart attack by the time we reeled him in.

From what I recall of the gaps we’d put 1.30 into DrP by the bottom of the hill but it didn’t stretch out massively from there, in practice I know I dug too deep too early and I did pop with 1k to go but I’d guess most of us in that group were in the same boat. As it was i clocked about 400 over the hill into the flat, 305 average till I popped then about 200 over the final 3min.
I was amazed not to get spat out on the viaduct, I just had nothing more to put in than I already was by that point. That everyone didn’t leave me behind makes me think not so much we were going slowly but that we just didn’t have the numbers to really pull away and I think we’d all possibly over reached a bit early on. It’s a bit tortoise and the hare I guess, I think if we’d been 30seconds slower over the first 5k we’d have been 30 plus seconds quicker over all. I know I would.

Phil last night, they should at least get something

He gets pride and bragging rights. I think that’s more important than points.

The formula isn’t quite there yet.

It’s never going to be perfect and the way it is currently is plenty good enough for keeping the series interesting. I was simply pointing out the cruel and heartless injustice of the current handicap system (!), not suggesting there’s any need to make changes.

A couple of posts suggest the pace on the front wasn’t that fast (!) but I promise at the end I had absolutely nothing left, I couldn’t have gone a second faster

Didn’t think you would have. The sprint and climb was a great attack. I was meaning more in the flat middle of the race. Before the attack between the sprints I was cruising at just over 200W for a while (being lazy). The whole group was moving at around 3.7wpkg AVG.

Phil last night, they should at least get something

He got some pay back as well for the trick I pulled in Paris in series 1.

Right…so everyone is happy then…keep it as is! 😉

Right…so everyone is happy then

That can’t be right. You mustn’t be paying attention.

He got some pay back as well for the trick I pulled in Paris in series 1.

But you apologised for that already.

Considering the effort being put in at the front on that first climb and descent @TPbiker it’s really not surprising that you were left adrift – that’s not a course that’s going to suit you no matter what the start procedure is.

Sorry but I have to disagree. There have been 7 races started as rollimg starts on flat, rolling and hilly courses so far. In every one of those I’ve managed to keep up with the likes of paino, dangeourb, woodster etc. Do we honestly think that it’s a coincidence that the first time we try a different start is the first time the course doesn’t suit me? If anything it would suit me more as it had 2 decent climbs in it.

Fact is that it wasn’t just the power houses who got away from me at the start. Both savoyad and woodster were 8 seconds ahead of me by the start of the climb, and as far as I’m aware neither of those guys is pumping out 320 watts ftp

However agree it’s robbo’s series and he can run it as he sees fit. If folks think that yesterdays start is the way to go then it won’t stop me from racing, but I don’t think we should pretend it won’t make a difference to some folks races (Not just mine, I may be at front next time hopefully!)

Rather than everyone lobbying Robbo for their preferred option let’s have some thought for the guy who makes this all possible.

100% agree @phil56. Well said. Also well done on the win and a perfectly timed attack.

Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this. Am I the only one doing this for fun? – type 2 fun admittedly but fun nevertheless. I don’t really care where I finish on the road and certainly don’t have the mental capacity or the will to start trying to calculate all the permutations surrounding the handicapping system and those racing alongside me. All I care about is that I did the best I could on the day.

So for my part I’ll go with whatever @robbo1234biking decides and thank my lucky stars that he is generous enough with his time to organise this in the first place. Thoroughly enjoyed the last series and thoroughly enjoying this one. Cheers Robbo.

And don’t worry about the A riders – we’ve got the GC to fight over for bragging rights 🙂.

Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this. Am I the only one doing this for fun?

I’ve never even checked my handicap. I just race the guys near me on the roads

So for my part I’ll go with whatever @robbo1234biking decides

So long as it’s not 20burpees when the timer hits zero then on your bike and go I third that.

Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this.

it’s all bants though innit? 😃 Like dissecting a 5-a-side match in the pub afterwards! It’s part of the fun/appeal… compared to a normal Zwift race where you turn up, race some randoms, and probably never see/interact with them again in any way!

Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this. Am I the only one doing this for fun?

Been said many times on this thread!

I turn up, do my best to keep up and try to beat those I know that should be around my level, die on my arse and then have a laugh with everyone on here afterwards, some I win, some I lose. Like Zilog says the beauty of this series is having the banter afterwards, I look forward to that more than the race.
Long may it continue and not get bogged down in trying to reach Utopia.

Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this

I don’t think anyone is taking it overly seriously are they? It’s a thread to discuss the race series, and we are discussing the change to the start procedure, and it’s pros and cons. No different than if we were in a footy league and we were discussing something like the merits of allowing rolling subs

No-one has said they aren’t going to race if it changes, or that they will enjoy the racing any more or less. I also think everyone agrees that it’s entirely up to robbo what he wants to do.

Right – Le Mans style starts it is then – you start 5 m from the bike, run up to it and get on. This will be an advantage for people wearing flats and for those in heels – good luck!

5m in front or behind?

If it’s from the side, I’ll be in the dining room and have to go through the kitchen, out the door and into the garage

discussing something like the merits of allowing rolling subs

Can I get my wife to ride the hilly bits for me?

Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this.

it’s all bants though innit? 😃

Well that and cycleogical warfare.

Can I get my wife to ride the hilly bits for me?

Better than asking someone else’s I imagine.

For those wanting to increase their fitness, just putting it out that there is a Sunday Hills ride again this week, 8am start, Dust in the Wind. It would be good to get large numbers again this week for general banter and drafting!

If you are interested, details are on the Meetup thread. #shamelessplug

Can I get my wife to ride the hilly bits for me?

Interesting concept! Imagine how much better you’d get on if could swap riders throughout the race.

Do you think if all the cat c and d riders rode in a relay, one mile each, they could beat Phil or Nixie over the course of a race? No-one gets any draft, but they would of course be able to absolutely bury themselves as only riding a mile..

Robbo, you reckon you could somehow organise that for us..😉😁

Robbo, you reckon you could somehow organise that for us..😉😁

Relay laps of volcano…

D& c riders 1 lap each
B & a riders 2 consecutive ones

Split into a few small teams
All on TT bikes to keep it from just being a case of finding a quick wheel

Might work for a giggle at some point.

It will just be like sports day – there is always one kid day dreaming when it is their turn and the rest of the team are shouting at them to go!

there is always one kid day dreaming when it is their turn and the rest of the team are shouting at them to go!

You mean like Zilog in last weeks TTT?!!

Wow just back from a long day dog walking, long story but got lost and ended up walking 18 miles instead of 8, but surprised still to see so much debate still of the starting method.

Thought it was already decided to do a rolling start for the longer lead in flatter rides like next week and despite starting right at the back this week I would say not ideal for me but by no means a game changer. Just need to prepared to go mega deep a bit longer at the start but that not exactly anything new for Zwift races.

It does seem a shame that the fastest and lightest bs seem able to stick with the a guys pretty regularly over any type of terrain so regardless of their performance. The faster bs (a few seem closer to the cat As than than the slower bs) or an over performing c putting in a mega performance and clinging on over a big proportion of a race, are able to keep a small enough gap that handicap sees them placed top of the pile. Racing within groups of cats at staggered start times would be a truer test, so riders can’t jump on for a tow and allow the handicap to work more in line with the intended mathematical equations but isn’t obviously as social.

I feel like both my hips joints, knee and groin are all knackered so I’m now going to concern myself with trying to loosen them up overnight to enjoy a steady ride tomorrow.

groin are all knackered so I’m now going to concern myself with trying to loosen them up overnight

We did not need that info

Can’t believe how seriously everyone is taking this.

It’s just banter surely – we all appreciate the effort that goes into setting it up and running it, without that we are relegated to the anonymity of zwift races again. Lots of discussion means riders are animated by it, rather than taking it seriously results-wise.

That being said.. I’m going to tentatively and softly bang my drum for a wavy start again ! Robbo has done all the hard work to make individual time penalties, I’m suggesting grouping those penalties into waves – say 5, publish the list of who is in what wave, and what time they go off at in good time.

Wave 1 goes when the meetup starts, Wave 2 some N secs later etc. It is up to you to wait for your start wave. If you don’t wait and you cheat off the line, I don’t care, because I’m doing it for the fun, and the racing of whats nearby rather than the accuracy of the final result, so boo to you. Waiting is not rocket science.

This wavy start means that you are more likely to blob up with your wave riders at the start, and try and stay ahead of the wave behind. This avoids slower less twitchy-start riders being on their own from the go, which is pretty miserable.

If you have something more to give, you can lead your wave, disappear into the sunset, or you can go with a faster group as they come through. Wave times should be calculated so that waves meet at 90% distance perhaps, rather than finish line, so that everyone gets the chance to draft the faster waves.

It means that everyone is more likely to see everyone else at some point, rather than just on the start line.

The results are the finish line order, (if anyone actually truly cares) although I don’t know how easy that is for Robbo to get versus what currently happens. I’m hoping thats easier than time based calculations after the race. It’s less precise than individual time penalties, but I suspect it may be more fun in practice.

Yes, this means that the faster riders are more likely to win the league. That seems legit to me, I’m more interested in my relative placing and having a competitive race.

Also, thanks Robbo.

Racing within groups of cats at staggered start times would be a truer test, so riders can’t jump on for a tow

The ability to get a tow makes the whole race interesting. If we just want to have a test of who’s the fastest we may as well just have a tt. As a man who came top 3 in both GC and handicap last series by wheel sucking my way round 6 races, I would obviously say that however..

The ability to get a tow makes the whole race interesting. If we just want to have a test of who’s the fastest we may as well just have a tt

I’d agree with you on that.

I’ve opinions on the choice of blobbing up or riding from the go but the reality is what I’d like and why comes a distant second what’s best for Robbo.

Right – Le Mans style starts it is then – you start 5 m from the bike, run up to it and get on. This will be an advantage for people wearing flats and for those in heels – good luck!

Maybe add in 30 secs of spins on the spot before running and trying to get on the bike?

#tpbiker and #dangerbrain, I really meant drafting from the hard work of an higher cat rider, which we’ve all done of course but seems a bit unfair for these guys to tow people around for them to finish closely behind on time but way ahead after handicap.

Nowt wrong with forming up and drafting along with the same cat. If each cat road together the handicap algorithm would work for cat a as well as all others. I appreciate it loses something socially effectively splitting into smaller groups rather than a free for all but maybe something to bear in mind if the number of riders, particularly As increases over time.

If each cat road together the handicap algorithm would work for cat a as well as all others.

Unfortunately the handicap system massively favours those that are good enough to just hang on to the group the faster guys are in and can draft their way round. Separating us into cats on the road won’t change that. Remember I’m the same cat as Phil, yet he has to give up 2-3 min every race to me on handicap. Whilst he’s a stronger rider, and in a tt he may put that time into me, in the races he won’t (other than last night when I missed his group) . Using the same handicaps, but splitting everyone into different cats, id still have got far more points than him last season.

You could of course completely remove handicaps, but then that completely misses the point of the series in my opinion

I personally think it works just fine as is. The best guys win the races and compete for the GC, the not so good guys that put in just as much effort get to compete for the handicap spots.

I think we’re all in agreement that the series Robbo created is ace and fun in a type 2 kind of way. I’m even enjoying the 13 pages of banter and it’s only race 2! @Robbo1234biking Happy to make a donation to your chosen charity again if you want to post a link.