STW Zwift Autumn Series 2

@crust

Sure enough as soon as it went uphill I died on my arse and the other two cleared off.

Looks like I didn’t put enough time into you to beat you on the handicap though!

Cheers for dragging me round. Lot more fun than last week’s ITT

 think the lead bunch perhaps was a little on the slow side.

The group I was in was 1min 30 down on them after 12k…and only 2 min down at the end despite not going particularly quickly and me literally wheezing up the last climb. So yeah, front group were defo not as pacy as usual.

On starts – doesn’t congregating up the road mean some peoples finish lines will be a lot sooner than other, are you getting 100/200 metres for free? Or have I misunderstood how it works?

Neil – companion app shows you as finishing 1 second ahead of weeksy and then the handicap bumps you up the standings.

Not in my screen Arn. You appeared to do me 50m from the line.

Was a tough start tonight with PBs upto about 20min effort.

Ended up with a nice little group over the hill (Savoyard, Kirky, F, Scaredypants) and pretty much to the finish. There was someone TTing about 15s ahead but we couldn’t seem to make up any ground, they must have been gunning it. By the last climb I’d had enough, was so glad to see the banner before the top.

Start seemed ok for me, but it does seem to set people off +/-3s. I’d guess that in the end it won’t matter as times will be relative.

Great fun as always! Thanks Robbo and everyone for dragging my ass off the sofa. There’s not much to look forward to at the moment, what with Covid and lockdown and rain and weird work stuff, so it’s quickly becoming the highlight of my week.

Still coughing my lungs up! My Oh is an archaeologist and has been working from home, not digging big holes in the garden but some sort of cataloguing of flints, which is dusty work.
Had the fan on the floor pointing upwards and dusted myself. Going to have to relocate for next week, just as I’ve got the tech stable.

On the upside Zwift has put my FTP back up to close to what it was. Glad I didn’t drop it.

Excellent work chaps, really good fun and am completely done in now…. thanks (I think)

Didn’t realise how important the tactics are on a zwift race pretty mad really, now i understand why theres was so much concern with the start…. got absolutely gassed in case your wondering 😉

Lots of effort trying to chase groups in the first 20mins or so on my own, settled into a good group but was then finished for the rest

Phil & front group – great effort, see everyone next week all being well

There was someone TTing about 15s ahead but we couldn’t seem to make up any ground, they must have been gunning it

Think that was me… you guys were 12-15sec behind after the climb. I called a shout out for a blob to come get me as it was too hard…!

Then a trio.. tpbiker and another 2, caught up, and we worked well as a 4some all the way to the finish.

Didn’t go for any sprints, just aiming to stay ahead of your bunch!
Kirky and I are similar handicap, so kept an eye on him and his time!

Didn’t do anything crazy up the final climb… just wanted to stay solid all the way up!

Happy with 6th on this race… didn’t race last week, so hopefully that is the only one I miss!

DrP

Well done whirld – I bet you’re bloody close to being able to draft the next group and that’ll take chunks off your times as well as being a nicer ride.

Dandasbike – are you the mysterious “F” ?

Start seemed ok for me, but it does seem to set people off +/-3s. I’d guess that in the end it won’t matter as times will be relative.

Not really, because if you miss the group because it’s already up the road by 3 seconds, you’ll lose alot more than over the course of the race by not being in their draft.

Not sure how the finishes work but the difference will be a matter of seconds between where one persons finish line is and where another’s is. So probably only relevant if you are going for the race win. However the same few seconds can make a massive difference at the start as it determines which group you are riding in.

Then a trio.. tpbiker and another 2, caught up, and we worked well as a 4some all the way to the finish.

Not sure I can take any credit for that, I was broken from 5 km in. Whoever r charlie is truelly saved my bacon today by zipping past me when I was stranded in no man’s land behind lead group on the descent after first climb. He basically smashed out 4.5w/kg for the next 5km till we caught yourself and one other..with me desperately hanging on to his wheel.

@scaredypants yes thats me, I thought it would say fordo197 but seemingly not. In all honesty I was riding above my station with you boys and was promptly dropped on the final climb. My race was the exact opposite last week and I suffered from it. Enjoyed it though and I personally thought the start was fine.

@tpbiker I’m R Charlie. Glad to help out 😉 think that was the unravelling of my race. Buried myself to try and bridge the gap to lead group for us but turns out it’s a pretty difficult thing to do on Zwift once your out of a group/draft…. I was pretty much done after that with a minute lost on the final climb, must go full gas from the go next time!

Anyway as the old race chat goes: could’ve, should’ve, would’ve…didn’t, much to learn!

Mixed feelings on the start, I had connection issues being able to see the invite but never got the prompt to join so with 2 minutes to go finished, ride and restarted the app, to join with 10 seconds on the countdown. Noticed I was last but two down the line. Hammered out above 600w catching lots of draft with a few like minded folks but couldn’t get near the lead group or the as it turns out the second group.

Worked like a madman up the climb putting in far more effort then would be ideal with sprints to come but couldn’t quite catch the second group. We formed up on the decent and maintained a 30 second in front and behind us pretty much back around to the start.

Tried to stretch a gap from scaredy, f and Andeh up the climb, just about managed it but really on the cusp of capitulating at any point, just had enough to ace it over the line.

Final thoughts on the staggered start is that there of course will be swings and roundabouts, but as in tonight’s case a placing at the back can rob you of the tactic which a few of us employ of catching the lead group. Holding as long as physically possible and sliding back to the best group you can live. Tonight I had to work up to catching the best group I could which is a lot order and limiting possible success final standings wise. If I could have caught the group just in front I would be confident of staying with them With some recovery, no chance staying with nixie and co though, and at the end of the day 30 seconds in a tight race and the well worked handicaps is a difference between 5 or 6 places.

Still enjoyed thoroughly in a masochistic way, had 5 big efforts, one to try and catch the lead at the start, first climb, I dropped out for about 10/15 seconds which saw me having to catch my group again, one effort when I thought Savo had just dropped off the back slightly and decided to try and distance him (felt bad knowing he’d dropped) and then the final climb.

I need to drop 6 or 7 kg to compete with JR and a few others on these hillier routes that’s for sure.

That was another great race. Start seemed to work well, Strava tells me I was at 650 watts when the clock hit zero and stayed close to the front for as long as possible but then inevitably dropped back towards the top of the first climb then just rode it out. Really enjoyed it and looking forward to next week. Thanks Robbo

PLEASE don’t think I mind the current system – I’m in it for the entertainment value, and there’s plenty of that already. Major thanks to Robbo for doing all this; much appreciated.

… but what d’you think would happen if we all waited for the auto-join thing to work rather than pressing the button? Might that put us at the same point on the road or is it just random spots around a general point even if you all arrive at once?

Ok cheers that’s odd as on mine Weeksy was in front when I crossed the line I,m guessing that’s due to the start points.

@scaredypants of all the events so far the auto join modal has only appeared once for me. The other times I have had to manually join.

@dandasbikes if you change it to First Name: F Second Name: ordo197 then it should display better in game.

@scaredypants – it is completely random and some people (such as kirky) don’t seem to get the autojoin button.

My race…I started within the last 3-4 riders on the road very nearly on the cobbled section by the bridge. I attacked the climb hard to try and make up spaces but didn’t make much distance but managed to just catch weeksy near the top and descended with him. We then caught another 2 riders (giggsmaster and 1timmy1) and a couple of more (burger, slowpuncheur and turnaround I think) just before the aquaduct. I put in a surge before the aquaduct KOM as I didn’t want to get dropped as I thought someone would attack there. It seemed everyone else did as well but we dropped weeksy.

The group of about 6 then caught oopnorth and 2 other riders (I think Feed and v7fmp was there). And as a group it was pretty fast all the way to bottom of the hill. Everytime you got to the front to take a turn someone else got to the front and put in a turn so we accelerated quickly. I almost got spat out the back a few times especially trying to get screenshots for the sprint times!

We then hit the hill and the group broke up. I attacked the first steep part pretty hard but I think I came in about 4th in the end from our group on the road. Managed to catch zilog on the climb though. Really enjoyed it and the summit finish was good. The next summit is the epic KOM so could be a lot different although you get that little rest at the top followed by a 2-3 minute attack so that should work well.

@savoyad we flew past you on the road assume you had drop out issues?

With regards to the start I am conflicted. I was at the back but it didn’t really ruin my race but had to do a bit of group hopping to get into the right group by the end but I still came in the fastest C. Next week is pancake flat and we have a long lead in so we have plenty of time to organise the rolling start so it will be less of an issue. I will see what some more opinions are before making a decision.

“Pancake flat”…..
Waaaaaaaaaa

DrP’s nemesis!!!!!

Can we at least programme/glitch in a FEW hills?!

DrP

the summit finish was good.

No…it most certainly wasn’t!

Next week is flat…not my forte…neither are hills after this week and last week….what is my thing??? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Can we have a downhill race?

NExt week is arguably a decent course for me, but i’m struggling with these 7:30pm rides, as i’ve said before, i’m a midday sort of rider, that’s when i ride and when i enjoy. The 7:30pm and then being wired for bed doesn’t really suit me at all.

another enjoyably painful race! The mixture of a torturous start and finish with basically a long flat in the middle was quite the test.

My wife was ready to call an ambulance at one point due to the roaring and deep breathing I was doing!

Start seemed ok, basically out of the blocks at full attack, hold for as long as possible and then slot into the nearest group and either try and stay ahead of the chasing pack or try to reel in those in front.

I didn’t make any efforts for the sprints, as I had nothing left in me!

It does always amaze me how hard I can go when in a race situation, literally at my max for 50odd minutes…. madness!

Two races, two costly mistakes.

I went over the first summit on Nixie’s wheel, but decided that I didn’t rate the chances of a 2up TT staying away so sat up for a few seconds to wait for the bunch on the downhill. But despite me doing 800w (v. briefly!) the bunch swept past and very quickly had 20 secs on me which I just couldn’t close. So I sat up again and waited again to be caught by DrP, R. Charlie and TPbiker and we stayed together pretty much.

Ah well, at least I went for the right finish line this week.

Next week is flat…not my forte…neither are hills after this week and last week….what is my thing???

Maybe you’re like me Craig and insist on burying yourself for minimal gain. Looking at the numbers this morning I see I averaged 316 to phil’s 306 and I lost the best part of 1 minute to him

When I looked as we caught nixie Endomondo had my average down at a little over 400w for about 8.5mins.

No surprise I lost my legs really, its a wonder I stayed on as long as I did.

I had a better race than last week after reading up on drafting, power ups and how to start. I spawned near the back with Robbo but put more effort at the start than last week and ended up with people who have a similar handicap as me after the first climb, so I knew I was in the right place. I preferred the start from zero even though I was near the back as it was just easier and less stressful. The extra effort put in at the start would help near the end as my blue banner would be earlier than most others; but there was no way I was getting in the top group from the start.

I planned to go for the first sprint if I had recovered enough from the first hill and even though I was looking for it, the green line still snuck up on me and I was late putting down the power, happy with 4th though (is it defined on the map?). Didn’t want to go for the second sprint with the hill finish and got dropped a bit on the start of that hill. Need to remember to drop down a gear and put the power down manually just before the hill or I do get dropped. Used my power up and managed to pass some people on the last hill so was happy with that.

Thanks again Robbo for putting this on, it was enjoyable.

Maybe you’re like me Craig and insist on burying yourself for minimal gain.

I seem to have strong starts and good mid sections especially if I’m latched onto a group. I suffer with stamina towards the end especially with a hill finish that needs quite a speedy constant effort. Need to work on both stamina and hills, however saying that I have improved massively from doing these races, I seem to be able to sustain a stronger pace for much longer than I used to.

Thanks Robbo for organising another great race, and congratulations to @w00dster for a top result in the handicap.

I thought the main groups would be decided on that first climb, so being lucky to start with a feather I redlined to just manage the top still in contact with the lead group of As, @paino (by far the strongest B), Woodster and maybe a couple of other Bs. After that it was a matter of hiding at the back to desperately cling onto the group after the fast A’s left, then every man for himself on the final climb where I was lucky to have a feather again – although I was dropped by Paino and the remaining As, it got me to the finish a few seconds ahead of Woodster, but with the handicap he got a well deserved win.

@snotrag

how the hell do the rest of you do it? According to the numbers, I’m told I’m a ‘B’,Yet, despite me going absolutely ballistic, every week I just go completely backwards, cant hold onto any groups

You handicap is only 30sec more than mine so you must be pretty close on FTP and W/kg: but while we put similar big efforts in on the first flat bit, on the hill I put everything into doing 5min at 10% over my 270W FTP, that was more than 80W above what you averaged on the hill. That hill was an extreme start which split us all into groups very quickly compared to a normal bunched start, but maybe one key tactic is to start with a very fast pace you can sustain for a several minutes to get into a good group, then recover at the back making full use of the draft.

As Paino said

That start was odd. There was guys flying past me with 3 seconds to go!

I was one of those guys, because although I started at the back near the bridge with @robbo1234biking, when I started I went past a long line of people who hadn’t started at all or were just slowly pulling away. Whether Zwift deliberately allows the people at the back to start a few seconds earlier, or it’s totally random, I don’t know. Because Zwift won’t let us start in pens there is no totally fair way to start – every method has its pros and cons. It might be worth trying this method once more, on a flat course where we tend to form into a big blob anyway – then maybe in a later race we could try the earlier suggestion of all coming to a halt in a line then starting again when Robbo says, although that also has its pros and cons.

Anyway a very interesting race and I’m looking forward to next weeks, although of course disapointed we won’t be racing through my local railway station, Box Hill, as part of the circuit.

It was my first STW race last night. Congratulations to all participants and particularly to those who achieved their ambitions. And a big thanks of course to Robbo for putting the series together.
I had a mixed ride, seemingly left in the blocks despite watching the clock tick down and anticipating the start. The first climb let me catch up some places and I joined a small group on the descent with Feed & Oopnorth which I felt was cracking along at a good pace until we were swallowed up by Robbo’s group. I managed to hang on to the enlarged group and avoided the temptation to attempt a sprint then somehow managed to make up a lot of places on the last climb. I never know if that is an aberration of my cheap trainer, or the fact that I ride in a hilly area and have an hour long commute (when I choose to ride it) that is a good match for the typical race distance. Either way – very content with the way it turned out.
Zwift has me down as a B class which I think I fluked my way into about this time last year just before picking up a bit of a health fart. A mild Lymphoma that radiotherapy seems to have obliterated. I only ever did one B class race and was trounced – close to last and would have been mid pack in C. I’ve done a couple of races this year out of class with the C’s just because it is much more fun to race where there is a chance you’ll be able to hang with a group rather than being destroyed and dropped in the first quarter then soloing to the end. So the C races are more fun, but hard not to feel like a fraudulent interloper when I’m disqualified from the results for being in the wrong class. Hence last night was a bit of a revelation to just race in a group and see where I fit in. Highly motivating and I hope to get to more events before life get in the way again.

we could try the earlier suggestion of all coming to a halt in a line

Can you imagine trying to stop in a specific spot on Zwift? 🤣

Can you imagine trying to stop in a specific spot on Zwift?

Absolutely…. it would have to be literally within 100m of spawn point and people just roll from the 0:00. But if it’s flat or any kind of down, then people can and will just roll along merrily… some will go into pairing and stop sooner, some will be 100m down the road.

Either system works we’ve tried, they both have good and bad bits…. but i’m struggling to see a ‘stop there’ type of thing working.

Congrats @phil56 on the road and @w00dster on the handicap. @robbo1234biking once again you organised a top race. Thank you.

I couldn’t quite stay with the front group on the opening climb, then I thought I might have a chance to latch onto @tpbiker on the later slopes when he charged through the field but I couldn’t stay with him either. So I went over the top in the red and alone – @cbott and @tpbiker were both in view, but clearly uncatchable, and I was pleased to see a group I could aim to join up with coalescing just behind me.

So I rode most of my race with @dandasbike (“F”), @andeh, @kirky72 and (finally got to ride with!) @scaredypants once I latched on to them (which required a 500W+ effort as they came past…). It was a good group to ride with – we fragmented a bit after the first sprint, although I don’t know if people were trying to split the group or it was just a bit chaotic, and @kirky72 had a drop out which he somehow came back from, impressive effort. We were never going to catch the riders ahead on the flat, but we were never in danger of being caught by the group behind either. It was just a case of flying round together, and letting the final climb settle it…

Then my calf cramped up, really cramped up, and had to lie on the floor watching you all blast past me and failing to get any sympathy from my family. Race over for me. I didn’t want 2 DNF’s in a row so I rode in when it settled, probably not the cleverest decision I ever made. And I felt a bit guilty about chasing @undarra down right on the line (sorry!).

It wasn’t a massive climb but it worked so well for this event @robbo1234biking. Looking at the results, the groups on the road all split up towards the finish, and even merged a little (I think @kirky72 caught @cbott, trolo very nearly chased down @dandasbike and so on).

I don’t have strong feelings about the start. A couple of people flew past me before I left my trainer, and maybe that pushed me to overdo it in the opening km. But that’s my strategic error and all the start options come with some equivalent potential drawback think. If we try the standing start, are we all capable of stopping in the right place (!) – I have never even tried that. On PC pressing A is the quickest way isn’t it, but how quick does it stop you? And are there equivalent shortcuts on other platforms?

I don’t think stopping on the road is a viable solution – not everyone uses PC so it is difficult for some to stop. You will end up spread over a 2-300m section further down the road from the start point. I think the two choices are:

1. Rolling start with random time gaps
2. Start from zero – random time gaps didn’t seem to be an issue last night.

Both have advantages/disadvantages for different people. Looking at the remaining races then I think it might depend on how the course starts. Next week suits a rolling start as we have a long flat lead in – we just need to make it a bit slower so everyone can get in the group.

Once again a great race to take part in so big thanks to Robbo and all participants. The gaps in the final times are quite narrow so the handicap system is working well and seems to be fairer to the really quick riders than the 1st series. I also found the start less stressful than the usual rolling format as I’m never quite sure whether I should be speeding up to catch the people out front or slowing down to let Robbo catch up with everybody else. As far as standing start goes I also think we’d struggle to stop at the same place on the road.

yeah I don’t think the idea of starting, then stopping, then all starting again will work at all, logistically. You’d also still have the problem of maybe some people missing the “go” signal. At least with the way we did it yesterday everyone knows exactly when the start is going to happen, so can be putting out max watts at that point (and if you weren’t doing that yesterday, you should’ve 😃)

I don’t even know how you can stop at a certain position – theres no ‘brake’ option for me on the IOS (ipad) version of the software. Theres no way I can see it working. Personally i just think what we did worked fine.

Cheers for the advice everyone too, it seems there is a bit more technique aswell as just fitness, I’ll try and get some practice at how the drafting works!

“wasn’t a massive climb but it worked so well for this event @robbo1234biking. Looking at the results, the groups on the road all split up towards the finish, and even merged a little (I think @kirky72 caught @cbott, trolo very nearly chased down @dandasbike and so on).”

I could see trolo reeling me in on the climb but just completely emptied myself for the last 500m and did just about enough, this got me a new hr pb of 183 🥴

If not everyone can actually stop I understand the negative views on the standing start. And even if we did it perfectly it would not solve the different finish line problem. So I guess @robbo1234biking is right

I think the two choices are:
1. Rolling start with random time gaps
2. Start from zero – random time gaps didn’t seem to be an issue last night

They both have good and bad points, so perhaps we could just mix them up between different races?

@robbo1234biking

With regards to the start I am conflicted.

You shouldn’t be.

Considering all the effort you put into organising this series it’s a simple decision – which is better for you? If a ‘Go from zero’ start means you can concentrate on enjoying your race rather than having to shepherd everyone else, then that should be the deciding factor. Rather than everyone lobbying Robbo for their preferred option let’s have some thought for the guy who makes this all possible.

I also think that last night’s course had a far bigger impact on the couple of guys who feel the ‘Go from zero’ didn’t help them than the start procedure did.

There’d been plenty of bants about what was going to happen at the start with @weeksy scaring us all with @nixie’s power up the first climb and Brian planning to take his handicap back up the first hill as well! It was always going to be relentless and brutal, it’s not steep enough to help the lightweights much and favoured maximum power rather than power to weight ratios. Brain says he averaged over 400w for the first 8 minutes and @tlr says he got dropped despite an 800w effort to stay in touch – I can well believe all that, I was absolutely on the limit trying to hang on until we got over the first hill, down the descent and on to the flat when it calmed down a little.

Considering the effort being put in at the front on that first climb and descent @TPbiker it’s really not surprising that you were left adrift – that’s not a course that’s going to suit you no matter what the start procedure is.

If we do ‘Go from zero’ next week I really can’t see that kind of madness being repeated on a flat course, it just wouldn’t work even if anyone tries it.

I wasn’t going to mention the handicaps again and I tried to bite my lip (!), but as @drew says

the handicap system is working well and seems to be fairer to the really quick riders than the 1st series.

I just can’t let that pass!

I accept it is was it is, but last night the top As weren’t just handicapped in the race, we were handicapped out of the race, and it wasn’t even close. A minute faster (which is a massive amount of time to try and find at that level of effort) and we still wouldn’t have troubled the top 20. A couple of posts suggest the pace on the front wasn’t that fast (!) but I promise at the end I had absolutely nothing left, I couldn’t have gone a second faster

With the handicap system as it stands you’re rewarded with points for performing BETTER than predicted. The main way I think this happens is by slower riders digging that bit deeper and drafting the faster ones… for the fastest riders, they obviously can’t do that – and you’re already expected to win so you literally can’t do better than predicted – thus no potential for any points. It’s unfortunate but would need a re-think of the whole system to be any different! At least you have the GC & now the sprint win to go for (so it’s not like there’s no reward at all for being the fastest!)